Does David's tell you if the renter cancels?

[heynowirv]

We had renter's thru David's scheduled for 3/11-18. I called David's on 3/13 to see if the renter's had cancelled or checked-in .The woman I talked to said she'd reach out to them and let me know. Well I just received an email fromDavid's today asking if I could refund the funds since the family decided to not go.My response was that I was confused about this since I tried over 4 days ago to find out their status.But if the points came back I'd be more than willing to help.
Fast forward to me calling MS an hour ago and their response was that it was my responsibility to call days ago to cancel.I'm waiting on a phone call from a supervisor to see if she /he can make and exception.Would I be wrong to tell David's if I don't get the points back I won't refund the money? I don't think it would be fair for me to lose both ways, points and funds.

 

[Cyberc1978]

We had renter's thru David's scheduled for 3/11-18. I called David's on 3/13 to see if the renter's had cancelled or checked-in .The woman I talked to said she'd reach out to them and let me know. Well I just received an email fromDavid's today asking if I could refund the funds since the family decided to not go.My response was that I was confused about this since I tried over 4 days ago to find out their status.But if the points came back I'd be more than willing to help.
Fast forward to me calling MS an hour ago and their response was that it was my responsibility to call days ago to cancel.I'm waiting on a phone call from a supervisor to see if she /he can make and exception.Would I be wrong to tell David's if I don't get the points back I won't refund the money? I don't think it would be fair for me to lose both ways, points and funds.

IMO you held up your end of the agreement and so should davids and pay you the balance.

If the renters didn’t wanna go they should have contacted David’s prior to the checkin date and then maybe you could have done something.

 

[Van Houten]

Just a curiosity on the legal side, but how exactly are timeshares set up? Mainly I'm wondering if the owners of the timeshares are considered owners of the resort, and if Disney is acting on their behalf? In that case, would the DVC owners be considered responsible for the resort closing through their agent(Disney)?

It is an ownership interest, similar to being a shareholder of a condominium or a cooperative. In fact, DVC is a "Condominium Association", with a management agent operating on behalf of all owners.

The decision to shut down the property was made by the management agent, to which the owners granted operating rights. As such, all owners, collectively, are directly responsible for the actions of the management agent.

 

[heynowirv]

IMO you held up your end of the agreement and so should davids and pay you the balance.

If the renters didn’t wanna go they should have contacted David’s prior to the checkin date and then maybe you could have done something.

My balance was paid on 3/11 .that's not an issue to me. It was more about them just writing to me now and asking for funds or rescheduling when I might not get my points back.

 

[Minniesgal]

The big problem is that Disney closing the resorts is just not something that was ever envisaged and that the legal agreements simply do not contemplate. And the tricky question is what should happen in this situation:

1. Renter pays (say) $2000 to rent points from an owner, chooses not to buy insurance, and agrees that the payment is non-refundable;
2. Owner makes reservation for renter using soon-to-expire banked points;
3. Disney closes the resorts;
4. Owner gets the points back but they are non-bankable and there is no possibility for him to use those points or rent them out again.

The possible responses would seem to be:

1. Owner says too bad, offers no refund, and suffers no loss, leaving the renter to suffer a loss of $2000.
2. Owner refunds the renter in full. Now the renter is made whole and suffers no loss, but the owner, who cannot use the points, now loses the full $2000.
3. (and this is the one that kind of makes the most sense to me in this situation) They split the difference, share the pain, by having the owner refund the renter $1000.

A horrible and tricky situation all around!

I agree with this even if the resorts close and the owner get their points back chances are they will be unusable due to availability and expiry dates. I don't see it as fair for owners to take the full brunt when the points are useless. 50 50 share seems reasonable.

 

[foreUT]

haynowirv, you have no responsibility to do anything, IMO. By contacting David's days ago, you more than fulfilled any obligation you might have. If the Renter contacted David's and David's failed to contact you, the problem should stay w the party that dropped the ball, and that is not you.

 

[CarolynFH]

My balance was paid on 3/11 .that's not an issue to me. It was more about them just writing to me now and asking for funds or rescheduling when I might not get my points back.

Under normal circumstances, if you had been notified in time to cancel the day before checkin (March 10) or earlier, your points would have gone into holding. If you had been notified and cancelled on March 11, you would have lost all your points. Since you were never notified and given a chance to cancel, I believe you don't owe that family anything. By DVC rules you will lose those points, at no fault of your own, whether coronavirus related or not.

 

[rchristiansen]

We had renter's thru David's scheduled for 3/11-18. I called David's on 3/13 to see if the renter's had cancelled or checked-in .The woman I talked to said she'd reach out to them and let me know. Well I just received an email fromDavid's today asking if I could refund the funds since the family decided to not go.My response was that I was confused about this since I tried over 4 days ago to find out their status.But if the points came back I'd be more than willing to help.
Fast forward to me calling MS an hour ago and their response was that it was my responsibility to call days ago to cancel.I'm waiting on a phone call from a supervisor to see if she /he can make and exception.Would I be wrong to tell David's if I don't get the points back I won't refund the money? I don't think it would be fair for me to lose both ways, points and funds.

Get all of the dated correspondence from David's between them an the owner. It may be possible they they requested to cancel before the 11th, but since David's was so busy, they didn't get to the request until now? Then you will have the documentation to share with member services to prove they tried to cancel.

Now, if the members just didn't call until yesterday or today, then I think nothing should be done and you are owed the money. JMHO

 

[CraigInPA]

So, the fact that the owners contract with David’s doesn’t say no refunds, and doesn’t have that language about negligence...thst is only in the renters contract...it absolves owners of David’s enforcing the restitution clause that is in the owners contract?

I guess I wrongly assumed I am bound by the terms of my contract, not the renters.

There are only two ways for David's to request a refund from an owner:
1. Owner cancels reservation without authorization
2. Owner otherwise breached their responsibilities. This is interpreted strictly as to those responsibilities that the owner has control over. For example, if the resort told the renter that there was no room at BRV available due to a fire, the owner has no liability, because that is outside their control.

When a contract is rendered impossible to fulfill because of the actions of a third party, that is called Force Majeure. David's, apparently, has nothing in their contract that covers this situation. As a result, the owner has NOT breached the contract because of the closure of the resort by DVC.

The 2017 David's contract says no refunds in the owners contract. That is an important factor in how David's treats the owners. If David's was allowed to cancel with impunity and request a refund, no owner would rent them points. Imagine renting out your points and the 9 months later being told the renter cancelled, and David's telling you to refund the 70%. Today, there are a very, very limited number of situations where David's might allow a partial refund, and only then when they can re-rent the points.

I find your last comment to be incredibly disingenuous, since you are the one who spewed incredibly incorrect information regarding having a legal responsibility to the renter who is not a party to your contract with David's.

 

[fsjking]

There are only two ways for David's to request a refund from an owner:
1. Owner cancels reservation without authorization
2. Owner otherwise breached their responsibilities. This is interpreted strictly as to those responsibilities that the owner has control over. For example, if the resort told the renter that there was no room at BRV available due to a fire, the owner has no liability, because that is outside their control.

When a contract is rendered impossible to fulfill because of the actions of a third party, that is called Force Majeure. David's, apparently, has nothing in their contract that covers this situation. As a result, the owner has NOT breached the contract because of the closure of the resort by DVC.

The 2017 David's contract says no refunds in the owners contract. That is an important factor in how David's treats the owners. If David's was allowed to cancel with impunity and request a refund, no owner would rent them points. Imagine renting out your points and the 9 months later being told the renter cancelled, and David's telling you to refund the 70%. Today, there are a very, very limited number of situations where David's might allow a partial refund, and only then when they can re-rent the points.

I find your last comment to be incredibly disingenuous, since you are the one who spewed incredibly incorrect information regarding having a legal responsibility to the renter who is not a party to your contract with David's.

Per my question earlier, as DVC owners, you've assigned Disney as your agent to make decisions concerning the timeshare. When Disney decides to close the resort, does that not have responsibility for the closure fall on you as the owner? I know there's some gray area on whether they were forced to close or chose to close as I don't think hotels have been specified anywhere. But on a legal basis, if the resort closes, as an owner are you responsible whether you had any control over the decision.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but am genuinely interested in the legal discussion.

 

[Sandisw]

There are only two ways for David's to request a refund from an owner:
1. Owner cancels reservation without authorization
2. Owner otherwise breached their responsibilities. This is interpreted strictly as to those responsibilities that the owner has control over. For example, if the resort told the renter that there was no room at BRV available due to a fire, the owner has no liability, because that is outside their control.

When a contract is rendered impossible to fulfill because of the actions of a third party, that is called Force Majeure. David's, apparently, has nothing in their contract that covers this situation. As a result, the owner has NOT breached the contract because of the closure of the resort by DVC.

The 2017 David's contract says no refunds in the owners contract. That is an important factor in how David's treats the owners. If David's was allowed to cancel with impunity and request a refund, no owner would rent them points. Imagine renting out your points and the 9 months later being told the renter cancelled, and David's telling you to refund the 70%. Today, there are a very, very limited number of situations where David's might allow a partial refund, and only then when they can re-rent the points.

I find your last comment to be incredibly disingenuous, since you are the one who spewed incredibly incorrect information regarding having a legal responsibility to the renter who is not a party to your contract with David's.

Really? You believe I said things because I knew I was wrong? I honestly believed when I went into my contract with David’s, and with other contracts I have dealt with, I had a responsibility to the renter and that if I couldn’t deliver the room, since it didn’t explicitly state reasons, I was on the hook to refund the money,

I appreciate your help in detailing why I was wrong and that I am not legally responsible, regardless of it not being there, to third party actions,

I don’t appreciate being accused of misleading people on purpose when if I had had a renter during this time, I would have been expecting to be asked to refund the money. And, I would have felt it was because my contract REQUIRED me to do so,

 

[MICKIMINI]

Get all of the dated correspondence from David's between them an the owner. It may be possible they they requested to cancel before the 11th, but since David's was so busy, they didn't get to the request until now? Then you will have the documentation to share with member services to prove they tried to cancel.

Now, if the members just didn't call until yesterday or today, then I think nothing should be done and you are owed the money. JMHO

Personal information on broker correspondence between owner and renter is confidential and why a third party was hired. DVC doesn't deal with rental disputes and brokers don't deal directly with DVC. The owner was never even given a chance to try to help...what the heck are they supposed to do at this point?

Owners are being asked to help in ways not spelled out in their contracts and most are going above and beyond, yet this instance the broker is way out of line asking for something they know darn well, DVC will not accommodate.

 

[heynowirv]

Get all of the dated correspondence from David's between them an the owner. It may be possible they they requested to cancel before the 11th, but since David's was so busy, they didn't get to the request until now? Then you will have the documentation to share with member services to prove they tried to cancel.

Now, if the members just didn't call until yesterday or today, then I think nothing should be done and you are owed the money. JMHO

I am the owner.

 

[Sandisw]

We had renter's thru David's scheduled for 3/11-18. I called David's on 3/13 to see if the renter's had cancelled or checked-in .The woman I talked to said she'd reach out to them and let me know. Well I just received an email fromDavid's today asking if I could refund the funds since the family decided to not go.My response was that I was confused about this since I tried over 4 days ago to find out their status.But if the points came back I'd be more than willing to help.
Fast forward to me calling MS an hour ago and their response was that it was my responsibility to call days ago to cancel.I'm waiting on a phone call from a supervisor to see if she /he can make and exception.Would I be wrong to tell David's if I don't get the points back I won't refund the money? I don't think it would be fair for me to lose both ways, points and funds.

Now see, this just adds to my confusion Again. Why is David’s asking you as an owner to refund the money? Is it because they feel you are obligated or just asking for some good will?

I think it would be worth a more in depth conversation with David’s as to their position.

But yes, if you have lost the points because no one contacted you so you could try to salvage, and the refund is based on good will only, then I don’t think you are wrong,

 

[Sandisw]

It is an ownership interest, similar to being a shareholder of a condominium or a cooperative. In fact, DVC is a "Condominium Association", with a management agent operating on behalf of all owners.

The decision to shut down the property was made by the management agent, to which the owners granted operating rights. As such, all owners, collectively, are directly responsible for the actions of the management agent.

This was my thoughts in all of this and why I believed owners would be responsibl.

 

[Lewisc]

Resorts in hurricane areas such as Vero Beach and maybe even Hilton Head are subject to possible closures due to hurricanes. Depending on damage the time period could extend for weeks, maybe even months. Brokers failure to include the appropriate terms in both the rental contract and owners contract is irresponsible. Depending on the terms owners, or renters, might have avoided that broker. Leaving it ambiguous may help the brokers business but is certainly leading to confusion. Suggesting travel insurance is a cop out. JMO but customers assume travel insurance coverage is far more extensive then it actually is.

JMO but once Disney canceled the reservation the contract is void and the renter is entitled to a full refund. The terms of the rental agreement, the reservation, is no longer in effect. I have no doubt a credit card dispute, at least in those cases where a dispute can be filed on a timely basis, would be successful.

More then 10 years ago an owner I previously rented with was trying to get me a reservation when everything was sold out. My memory was it couldn't be done online and she was calling daily. She was also trying to get a reservation for her family, different week, and didn't mind also checking for me.. I had a room only resort reservation and told her to just book the DVC if it was available and I'd pay within 24 hours. I asked if she wanted me to give her a deposit while she was checking. She wasn't worried. She told me she never rents points that can't be banked. At the time I didn't realize the significance. Isn't this the biggest issue.? Owners have points which might wind up expiring before they can be re-rented.

 

[heynowirv]

Now see, this just adds to my confusion Again. Why is David’s asking you as an owner to refund the money? Is it because they feel you are obligated or just asking for some good will?

I think it would be worth a more in depth conversation with David’s as to their position.

But yes, if you have lost the points because no one contacted you so you could try to salvage, and the refund is based on good will only, then I don’t think you are wrong,

Sandi My understanding is they are looking for goodwill. They know legally I'm under no obligation.

 

[Sandisw]

Sandi My understanding is they are looking for goodwill. They know legally I'm under no obligation.

Thanks for clarifying that. It’s good to have confirmation directly from someone who is dealing with David’s.

To everyone out there who I gave my own interpretation to what I thought was required, I am sorry. I truly went into this think ing, as owners, we would be responsible legally to compensate renters with resort closures, not just through good will,

 

[Van Houten]

JMO but once Disney canceled the reservation the contract is void and the renter is entitled to a full refund. The terms of the rental agreement, the reservation, is no longer in effect. I have no doubt a credit card dispute, at least in those cases where a dispute can be filed on a timely basis, would be successful.

What would be interesting to see is if Disney cancels all scheduled reservations made via DVC the same way they intend to do it for regular direct bookings:

On Friday, March 20 at 5 p.m., we will automatically cancel reservations of Walt Disney Travel Company Disney Resort hotel packages and Disney Resort hotel room only reservations booked directly through Disney, for arrivals March 20-31. We will also process a refund to the original form of payment if a payment had been made.

If that happens, it clears the path to credit card disputes, at the very least.

She told me she never rents points that can't be banked. At the time I didn't realize the significance. Isn't this the biggest issue.? Owners have points which might wind up expiring before they can be re-rented.

That definitely makes the difference. Points, the way they are described in the DVC contract, are a fringe benefit of ownership, and not an entitlement - e.g. there is an expectation that they are void if not utilized during their opportunity window, and neither the management agent nor the ownership association carry any responsibility to individual owner for such loss of use.

 

[heynowirv]

Thanks for clarifying that. It’s good to have confirmation directly from someone who is dealing with David’s.

To everyone out there who I gave my own interpretation to what I thought was required, I am sorry. I truly went into this think ing, as owners, we would be responsible legally to compensate renters with resort closures, not just through good will,