CoVID 19 Points Fate

[SDan]

DVC has said it is allowing points to go back to their original use year. If you're using current use-year points or borrowed points that works out fine. However, DVC has also said, so far, that banked points used for reservations will still expire with the use year because they are concerned about the supply of points that would be pushed to the following year. I think that any banked points that expire as a result of the CoVID 19 closures should become available the following year. DVC rents, on a cash basis, any rooms that are not reserved within a 60 day period, I think that if DVC were to allow the points to carry over to the following year, they would be used by the members for extended vacations, or room upgrades. I think that, at this point, they are talking about letting those points expire because they do not want members using points where they could be selling for cash. I hope that it's not the case, but I believe it is. Remember, DVC does not pay the maintenance fees on unsold inventory, and because of the closures, they will likely not have to contribute as much, if any, to repairs. If you haven't, please read your contract and see exactly where your maintenance fees are going and how DVC has arranged for them not to pay the maintenance fee on the inventory they own. Hopefully this will all end soon, and everyone here will be safe. However, those of you who will lose the banked points that you made a cancelled reservation with, need to be taken care of as well. Yes, I have two reservations made with banked points that will expire this year if they do not re-open, so I'm hoping that they do not simply allow the banked points that have been paid for to simply disappear. Option 2: Refund the maintenance fee for those banked points that are lost during the CoVID 19 closures. Take care. Be well. Keep your distance. Oh, and I think that coughing into your shirt is better than into your hand or elbow; and it's certainly better than nothing at all!

 

[Krandor]

To alllow points not to expire would be too many points and not enough rooms and would result in points expiring a year from now because there were no rooms to rent.

 

[Sandisw]

The bigger problem is that TWDC is not in anyway responsible to support DVC to cover losses or operational issues.

Matter of fact, what I learned by reading the POS is that the points owned by Disney do not have the same rules as the rest of the owners,

So, this is a matter of balancing the laws for timeshares, the number of points inventory lost, and what can be done now and in the future to absorb all that lost inventory.

 

[SDan]

To alllow points not to expire would be too many points and not enough rooms and would result in points expiring a year from now because there were no rooms to rent.

"To alllow points not to expire would be too many points and not enough rooms and would result in points expiring a year from now because there were no rooms to rent."
I disagree. As I said, Disney holds a great deal of unsold points that figure in to the annual allotments. True, Disney would not have the revenue from sales of rooms, but the points that the current DVC members have would not overload the system.

 

[SDan]

Matter of fact, what I learned by reading the POS is that the points owned by Disney do not have the same rules as the rest of the owners,

That's true, they do have separate rules that have been agreed upon by our representatives. They don't pay maintenance fees for their points because they agree to pay for deficiencies, if any, for the larger refurbs; and, they do not allow overpayment of maintenance fees by members to be used to offset any increase in maintenance fees in the future. That's why the maintenance fees went up, even in an economy where we saw the cost of products and labor go down in the 2010s.

 

[CarolMN]

The vast major of DVC rooms rented for cash by Disney come from owners who traded points for cruising or a stay at a non-DVC Disney resort. Those are not points owned by DVCMC or even DVD. We have no right to use those rooms twice and would be requiring other divisions (who are already experiencing big losses) to absorb our loss. Do our losses trump the shareholders?

Even if DVD was willing to give up the revenue from points it buys back or owns, I strongly doubt it's enough to make up an additional 20% in capacity (assuming nothing opens up before June).

 

[SDan]

The vast major of DVC rooms rented for cash by Disney come from owners who traded points for cruising or a stay at a non-DVC Disney resort. Those are not points owned by DVCMC or even DVD. We have no right to use those rooms twice and would be requiring other divisions (who are already experiencing big losses) to absorb our loss. Do our losses trump the shareholders?

Well, I'm a shareholder as well as a DVC Member so I'm in both boats. I would be interested in the actual numbers that you refer to regarding traded points for cruises or non-DVC resorts. But that only shows where they would have additional space and not less. If I trade my points to stay at a non-DVC resort, I have now freed-up space at the DVC resort in the amount of points that I traded. Normally, DVC would then say that they have room at the DVC resort to then sell. Example: You have 1000 points that you would use at DVC. If you trade those points to stay off property, there are now 1000 points not being used at DVC. Like you mentioned, those rooms don't go un-used. If you believe that there would be overcrowding if the points were allowed to be carried over, okay, I disagree. The points have been paid for by DVC Members. If conditions don't become favorable over the next two years, well, we can address that then. For now, I think it best to help the members who have invested thousands ($20,000.00 in our case more for some, less for others) to help build DVC into what it is today. Take care. Be safe. Keep your distance.

if DVD was willing to give up the revenue from points it buys back or owns, I strongly doubt it's enough to make up an additional 20% in capacity (assuming nothing opens up before June).

 

[CarolMN]

Well, I'm a shareholder as well as a DVC Member so I'm in both boats. I would be interested in the actual numbers that you refer to regarding traded points for cruises or non-DVC resorts. But that only shows where they would have additional space and not less. If I trade my points to stay at a non-DVC resort, I have now freed-up space at the DVC resort in the amount of points that I traded. Normally, DVC would then say that they have room at the DVC resort to then sell. Example: You have 1000 points that you would use at DVC. If you trade those points to stay off property, there are now 1000 points not being used at DVC. Like you mentioned, those rooms don't go un-used. If you believe that there would be overcrowding if the points were allowed to be carried over, okay, I disagree. The points have been paid for by DVC Members. If conditions don't become favorable over the next two years, well, we can address that then. For now, I think it best to help the members who have invested thousands ($20,000.00 in our case more for some, less for others) to help build DVC into what it is today. Take care. Be safe. Keep your distance.

I think you missed my point. That additional space belongs to DCL and the non-DVC resorts. It gets rented to the general public for cash. DVC has to pay the other divisions and thus needs to turn those "1000" points into cash to do so. Those divisions aren't going to agree to give free cruises or stays to DVC Members.

Since all division results flow to the bottom line, I don't think stockholders would like using their cash to cover DVC Members' losses. They have plenty of their own pandemic-related losses, without covering ours.

You stay safe, too!

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I think you missed my point. That additional space belongs to DCL and the non-DVC resorts. It gets rented to the general public for cash. DVC has to pay the other divisions and thus needs to turn those "1000" points into cash to do so. Those divisions aren't going to agree to give free cruises or stays to DVC Members.

Since all division results flow to the bottom line, I don't think stockholders would like using their cash to cover DVC Members' losses. They have plenty of their own pandemic-related losses, without covering ours.

You stay safe, too!

I think it's extremely doubtful that the cruise ships and hotels will be back to the same occupancy once things reopen - not even close. Given the choice between allowing DVC owners to be "whole" and fill in some of the vacancies and bring in more income via food & beverage and other spending vs just letting owners points expire, disenfranchising many of them who over time have been a good reliable base? Really the smart business choice is to do the trades and bring in the ancillary income - IMO. This is not the same as it was where it was potentially taking inventory that otherwise might be purchased at a full cash price by some other person. There's going to be a lot of vacancy.

 

[Sandisw]

I think you missed my point. That additional space belongs to DCL and the non-DVC resorts. It gets rented to the general public for cash. DVC has to pay the other divisions and thus needs to turn those "1000" points into cash to do so. Those divisions aren't going to agree to give free cruises or stays to DVC Members.

Since all division results flow to the bottom line, I don't think stockholders would like using their cash to cover DVC Members' losses. They have plenty of their own pandemic-related losses, without covering ours.

You stay safe, too!

Not to mention that TWDC isn’t liable in anyway to cover this! It’s what we signed up for when we decided to become a Timeshare ownee!

 

[Sandisw]

I think it's extremely doubtful that the cruise ships and hotels will be back to the same occupancy once things reopen - not even close. Given the choice between allowing DVC owners to be "whole" and fill in some of the vacancies and bring in more income via food & beverage and other spending vs just letting owners points expire, disenfranchising many of them who over time have been a good reliable base? Really the smart business choice is to do the trades and bring in the ancillary income - IMO. This is not the same as it was where it was potentially taking inventory that otherwise might be purchased at a full cash price by some other person. There's going to be a lot of vacancy.

So your saying DVC owners are entitled to free rooms or cruises because we will spend money and they can recoup it that way?

Disney could just as easily offer cash guests the chance to pay for the dining plan and get a room free to fill the parks because once there, they spend money too.

Again, DVCM could certainly try to negotiate something with TWDC to cover the loss to DVC members . But, given how often that statement is peppered throughout the POS...I would say it won’t be an easy task.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

So your saying DVC owners are entitled to free rooms or cruises because we will spend money and they can recoup it that way?

Disney could just as easily offer cash guests the chance to pay for the dining plan and get a room free to fill the parks because once there, they spend money too.

Again, DVCM could certainly try to negotiate something with TWDC to cover the loss to DVC members . But, given how often that statement is peppered throughout the POS...I would say it won’t be an easy task.

First - never have I ever stated entitled.

There are a lot of business that are going to be rebuilding their business following this and I fully expect that to apply to Disney parks and cruises. It is no different than following previous events such as 9-11 where large discounts were offered etc. So yes, offering discounts for cash guests or allowing added access to DVC members to hotel rooms that are otherwise empty is potentially a valid business reponse to ramp back up. It's likely though that DVC inventory may cover the need as there will probably be DVC members themselves choosing to not travel for awhile but in the case there is more DVC demand than rooms and there are hotel rooms available then it won't be hurting Disney to have something like that on the table. Where it doesn't work is if they are otherwise filled to capacity from cash guests however that is pretty unlikely.

 

[Sandisw]

First - never have I ever stated entitled.

There are a lot of business that are going to be rebuilding their business following this and I fully expect that to apply to Disney parks and cruises. It is no different than following previous events such as 9-11 where large discounts were offered etc. So yes, offering discounts for cash guests or allowing added access to DVC members to hotel rooms that are otherwise empty is potentially a valid business reponse to ramp back up. It's likely though that DVC inventory may cover the need as there will probably be DVC members themselves choosing to not travel for awhile but in the case there is more DVC demand than rooms and there are hotel rooms available then it won't be hurting Disney to have something like that on the table. Where it doesn't work is if they are otherwise filled to capacity from cash guests however that is pretty unlikely.

Sorry,...entitled wasn’t the right word...I should have used allowed..which is what I meant.

 

[Aussie RJ]

I think everyone may be jumping the gun slightly early here. If this goes on for 6 months, I‘m not sure DVC will have an inventory issue. Families across the world are about to be hit by very hard times, a Disney vacation will not be affordable to many. Even if the room has already been paid for in points.
Currently If the expiring 244 banked points I have remains my biggest problem then I’m going alright!

 

[Sandisw]

I think everyone may be jumping the gun slightly early here. If this goes on for 6 months, I‘m not sure DVC will have an inventory issue. Families across the world are about to be hit by very hard times, a Disney vacation will not be affordable to many. Even if the room has already been paid for in points.
Currently If the expiring 244 banked points I have remains my biggest problem then I’m going alright!

Very true, But, DVCM has a duty to make sure whatever plan they go with to deal with it, assumes typical travel,

That is why this is not an easy task when you are dealing with, 20% of the rooms. It’s going to take time and if they can do anything within their power and legally...they will,

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Sorry,...entitled wasn’t the right word...I should have used allowed..which is what I meant.

And my response back to it probably came off a little stronger than I meant.

When was it that using points for cruises was virtually suspended? I think before the 2 new ships came on, economy was recovering and cruising on cash was in heavy demand? In a similar context this might be the opposite of that situation for both DCL and Disney Parks and Resorts. There's a point where fixed costs for having additional guests at the hotels and in the parks (and on the ships) is very minimal and so getting more people there and having the ancillary spending from them makes the bottom line. Maybe I'm completely wrong and people will flock back but assuming that guest visits will be drastically down then all those ancillary $$$' s would likely be very important to the parks/hotel division. DVC is a relatively captive base and I 100% believe they've looked to that base in the past to support them thru downturns as most businesses would/will look to their loyal bases during troubled times. Maybe it's throwing a bit of a bone back to help keep owners "whole" who might otherwise lose points because of the current closure but that doesn't mean it can't be done nor that it would a poor business move. Of course they aren't required to address it either but burying their head in the sand and sticking with the "it says xxxx" probably isn't prudent.

 

[Sandisw]

And my response back to it probably came off a little stronger than I meant.

When was it that using points for cruises was virtually suspended? I think before the 2 new ships came on, economy was recovering and cruising on cash was in heavy demand? In a similar context this might be the opposite of that situation for both DCL and Disney Parks and Resorts. There's a point where fixed costs for having additional guests at the hotels and in the parks (and on the ships) is very minimal and so getting more people there and having the ancillary spending from them makes the bottom line. Maybe I'm completely wrong and people will flock back but assuming that guest visits will be drastically down then all those ancillary $$$' s would likely be very important to the parks/hotel division. DVC is a relatively captive base and I 100% believe they've looked to that base in the past to support them thru downturns as most businesses would/will look to their loyal bases during troubled times. Maybe it's throwing a bit of a bone back to help keep owners "whole" who might otherwise lose points because of the current closure but that doesn't mean it can't be done nor that it would a poor business move. Of course they aren't required to address it either but burying their head in the sand and sticking with the "it says xxxx" probably isn't prudent.

I don’t remember about cruises, and sure, DVCM could try to negotiate some deal with Disney,.,and for all we know, they may be trying,

What I don’t see...given the losses for parks and resorts is it being free swap, where DVC doesn't have to provide them with some cash in the deal,

For example, owners with banked points that have expired would be are allowed to pay a fee to use them at non DVC rooms, For example, if the room in Disney collection is 40 points a night, the member pays $100 addition to the points. Both DVC and Disney get something out of the deal,

Now, I know, it may not be popular and upset members.ie: I already paid for my points, why do I have to pay more,

But the alternative is the points are gone. Like I said, I’m not confident...and I really hope I am wrong...I would love to be...that any solution presented for banked points that expire during closure won’t be the solution that members with those points are going to want.

 

[Aussie RJ]

Could DVC simply declare the remaining points in Riviera and temporarily remove any restrictions? This would create a huge bucket of rooms open to points bookings. I’m sure there’s legal hurdles, but we are in unprecedented times.

 

[Sandisw]

Could DVC simply declare the remaining points in Riviera and temporarily remove any restrictions? This would create a huge bucket of rooms open to points bookings. I’m sure there’s legal hurdles, but we are in unprecedented times.

If DVD declare the rest of RIV into DVC, they are now on the hook for the dues for all those points.

So, yes, they can declare more rooms, but it would be a huge cost to Disney and since Disney has no liability to DVC, I can not see them doing it, especially given the financial hit the company is already faced with

As long as the rooms stay as cash inventory, there are no dues to pay.

But, you never know!

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

If DVD declare the rest of RIV into DVC, they are now on the hook for the dues for all those points.

So, yes, they can declare more rooms, but it would be a huge cost to Disney and since Disney has no liability to DVC, I can not see them doing it, especially given the financial hit the company is already faced with

As long as the rooms stay as cash inventory, there are no dues to pay.

But, you never know!

I thought that DVC just guarantees to cover any shortfall in the budgets in lieu of paying dues? Either way, MF's pay for the cost of operating the resorts so just because the rooms are not declared into DVC it doesn't mean that they aren't paying expenses already.