Penalized For Being Prudent

dismedvc

DIS Veteran
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
I know this is not a perfect analogy, however, bear with me.
If you wanted to take a vacation that would take two years of your earnings, there are two ways you could fund it.
  • Save last years earnings and deposit those earnings in a bank. Then this year withdraw those banked earnings and combine those with this year’s earnings and pay for your vacation without going into debt.
  • Use this year’s earnings and take out a loan against next year’s earnings to pay for your vacation.
While there is nothing wrong with option 2, I think most would agree option 1 is more financially prudent. If the vacation is cancelled by the provider for any reason, you would probably get your money back in either case, but those who used option 2 would still have the loan.

However, in the case of DVC those of use who prudently chose option 1 will likely lose last year's earnings (points) that we banked, while those that chose the less prudent option 2 will have their loan (borrowing) forgiven.
That does not seem right.

Again, I know this is somewhat of an apple to oranges comparison, so please do not reply just to tell me that. However, I would like to hear what other member think of this post.
 
This is the first time ever that a global pandemic is affecting the parks. Hopefully soon scientists will develop a vaccine or medicine that helps with this virus. Yes it sucks to lose a year of banked points. Those affected the worst are the June use year. DVC is in the middle of sorting out how many points are being lost and trying to figure out how long the system will be out of wack if they let late banking and possibly banked points be banked again. We will just have to wait and see.
 
I know this is not a perfect analogy, however, bear with me.
If you wanted to take a vacation that would take two years of your earnings, there are two ways you could fund it.
  • Save last years earnings and deposit those earnings in a bank. Then this year withdraw those banked earnings and combine those with this year’s earnings and pay for your vacation without going into debt.
  • Use this year’s earnings and take out a loan against next year’s earnings to pay for your vacation.
While there is nothing wrong with option 2, I think most would agree option 1 is more financially prudent. If the vacation is cancelled by the provider for any reason, you would probably get your money back in either case, but those who used option 2 would still have the loan.

However, in the case of DVC those of use who prudently chose option 1 will likely lose last year's earnings (points) that we banked, while those that chose the less prudent option 2 will have their loan (borrowing) forgiven.
That does not seem right.

Again, I know this is somewhat of an apple to oranges comparison, so please do not reply just to tell me that. However, I would like to hear what other member think of this post.
Agree, June UY here chiming in. Feeling like we made a huge mistake with hard earned money sucks. And yes I understand this is horrible for the whole world healthwise, job wise etc.
 


In your scenario of a bank loan, borrowing half the funds for a vacation is more risky and less prudent. But in the DVC scenario, using borrowing is actually less risky, as you have found out with this epidemic, but it can be the case with any unexpected event that makes you unable to travel. Since banked points are much more stale than borrowed points you run the risk of being unable to use them...
 
Not only do I agree with the OP, but I'd be on board with a one-time dues increase to help make the members who are losing points whole - say subsidizing stays at other on-site resorts that will undoubtedly be under-booked in the near term. I understand the math of the situation, I just can't get behind anyone saying they planned for this - you didn't. If you are not losing points, it is because you got lucky.

Edit to add - in fact, if you have stayed on borrowed points in the last year, you have benefited from those who banked points, that they are now losing. Just where do you think the availability came from to use those borrowed points?
 
In your scenario of a bank loan, borrowing half the funds for a vacation is more risky and less prudent. But in the DVC scenario, using borrowing is actually less risky, as you have found out with this epidemic, but it can be the case with any unexpected event that makes you unable to travel. Since banked points are much more stale than borrowed points you run the risk of being unable to use them...

Why are so many apparently missing this? My Easter reservation was made with current UY points. Those points are not even technically a year old yet! We're not complaining because we want to bank already banked points. We're complaining that we can't get the full 3 years' usage out of the points we have and not being allowed to bank them through no fault of our own and their value being taken away at 2 years (borrow previous year and use current year and exclude banking 3rd year).
 


Not only do I agree with the OP, but I'd be on board with a one-time dues increase to help make the members who are losing points whole - say subsidizing stays at other on-site resorts that will undoubtedly be under-booked in the near term. I understand the math of the situation, I just can't get behind anyone saying they planned for this - you didn't. If you are not losing points, it is because you got lucky.

I don’t think people have said they planned for it and it’s not their fault that the resort closed.

Traveling late in UY with banked points or beyond your window is a known risk and discussed on these boards extensively when people are looking to buy and choosing a UY.

People who decide to travel early in the UY so they are within the banking window, or have time to use up points, do so to protect them against the risk and it’s not luck. It’s planning for the worst case scenario.

All owners are on board with DVCM coming up with a plan that limits the loss of points. But, there will be unhappy people when a final decision is known.
 
I don’t think people have said they planned for it and it’s not their fault that the resort closed.

Traveling late in UY with banked points or beyond your window is a known risk and discussed on these boards extensively when people are looking to buy and choosing a UY.

People who decide to travel early in the UY so they are within the banking window, or have time to use up points, do so to protect them against the risk and it’s not luck. It’s planning for the worst case scenario.

All owners are on board with DVCM coming up with a plan that limits the loss of points. But, there will be unhappy people when a final decision is known.

You have said yourself (I'm not sure where but I read it this morning in another thread.) that points have 3 years worth of "value." So taking the value of ours away at 2 (really 1 for those of us who NEVER borrow points) is fair how?
 
Why are so many apparently missing this? My Easter reservation was made with current UY points. Those points are not even technically a year old yet! We're not complaining because we want to bank already banked points. We're complaining that we can't get the full 3 years' usage out of the points we have and not being allowed to bank them through no fault of our own and their value being taken away at 2 years (borrow previous year and use current year and exclude banking 3rd year).

I think people that keep responding are simply stating that you still chose to travel beyond your banking window, which put those points at a higher risk than had you traveled before it ended. ie: if your trip was in January and this had happened , you would not be suffering losses...that isn’t a blame statement, just an example of how when you travel makes a difference.

Granted, it is not your fault the resort closed and if DVCM can find a way to allow it given all the factors in play, they will amend the banking rules.

Many people travel early in their UYs to avoid exactly what you are going through because they don’t ever want to be forced into a situation if something happens, within their control or not,

That is not saying you did anything wrong but, owners should not be expecting or demanding that they should be given a pass Simply because there is a state of emergency

Again, this isn’t about being mean or inconsiderate to people struggling but we do have to remember we own a timeshare with rules and regulations. There may only be so much they can do,
 
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Why are so many apparently missing this? My Easter reservation was made with current UY points. Those points are not even technically a year old yet! We're not complaining because we want to bank already banked points. We're complaining that we can't get the full 3 years' usage out of the points we have and not being allowed to bank them through no fault of our own and their value being taken away at 2 years (borrow previous year and use current year and exclude banking 3rd year).
This thread has nothing to do with your situation since you do not have any banked or borrowed points.
 
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I know this is not a perfect analogy, however, bear with me.
If you wanted to take a vacation that would take two years of your earnings, there are two ways you could fund it.
  • Save last years earnings and deposit those earnings in a bank. Then this year withdraw those banked earnings and combine those with this year’s earnings and pay for your vacation without going into debt.
  • Use this year’s earnings and take out a loan against next year’s earnings to pay for your vacation.
While there is nothing wrong with option 2, I think most would agree option 1 is more financially prudent. If the vacation is cancelled by the provider for any reason, you would probably get your money back in either case, but those who used option 2 would still have the loan.

However, in the case of DVC those of use who prudently chose option 1 will likely lose last year's earnings (points) that we banked, while those that chose the less prudent option 2 will have their loan (borrowing) forgiven.
That does not seem right.

Again, I know this is somewhat of an apple to oranges comparison, so please do not reply just to tell me that. However, I would like to hear what other member think of this post.
Your example is clearly noy apples and apples. Its apples to a loaf of bread.
The bank money is money that can be applied at any time. You need it before your trip you have access to it. You dont use it all you can use it for something else.
DVC is a TS. Limited use and expiry date on each year use and on end date.
And those who have a heart and say they would support an increase in dues to make others whole. Really. So because some have used their points they are now affected by those who saved. There will never be a perfect solution. Members will be burnt. I am part of that. But I dont expect others to pay for my losses.
Of my house burns down I still havve to pay taxes on it. Even if it takes a year to rebuild. Should everyone in my neighbourhood chip in a pay my taxes for me because I dont have my house to live in. No.
 
In your scenario of a bank loan, borrowing half the funds for a vacation is more risky and less prudent. But in the DVC scenario, using borrowing is actually less risky, as you have found out with this epidemic, but it can be the case with any unexpected event that makes you unable to travel. Since banked points are much more stale than borrowed points you run the risk of being unable to use them...
Borrowed points have always been exactly like banked points. If you cancel, or DVC cancels a reservation made with borrowed points, those borrowed points need to be used before the end of the UY they were borrowed into, and cannot be banked into your next UY. Just like banked points.

It only turned out borrowed points have less risk in the current environment when DVC changed the rules for borrowed points and did not change them for banked points. No one could have seen that happening, so people who booked with borrowed points got lucky, they were not being more prudent.
 
Borrowed points have always been exactly like banked points. If you cancel, or DVC cancels a reservation made with borrowed points, those borrowed points need to be used before the end of the UY they were borrowed into, and cannot be banked into your next UY. Just like banked points.

It only turned out borrowed points have less risk in the current environment when DVC changed the rules for borrowed points and did not change them for banked points. No one could have seen that happening, so people who booked with borrowed points got lucky, they were not being more prudent.

Yes, banked and borrowed points always had the same rule of final transaction...that is true,

However, banked and borrowed points, in terms of inventory, are not the same in anyway, The rooms attached to those banked points were available in the past. The rooms attached to borrowed points are still there available for booking since it’s the future,

That is why, right now, DVCM has decided to treat the points differently, because they must have decided, based on the number of points involved in this loss, putting them back would HELP the situation going forward,

They have not adjusted rules for banked points because allowing them to be banked again, may not be legal, not to mention it would overload the system,

It has nothing to do with members, it has nothing to do with treating or penalizing owners, It is about, and only about, trying to sustain a system that is meant to run at almost 100% occupancy for 52 weeks a year, and finds itself with about 10 weeks missing.
 
I have 54 VGF banked points, from a cancelled May 1st reservation, that will need to be used before July 31st. More often than not in my 8 years of membership, I have been borrowed out, so trying to use banked points during the last few months of my UY is a first.

Unless used at the beginning of a UY, as the UY goes on, banked points become more of a liability.
 
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Unless used at the beginning of a UY, as the UY goes on, banked points become more of a liability.
Agreed. We had a reservation with our daughter's family including our 2 year old grandson's first trip to Disney, starting September 1st 2019 using banked points. Our Daughter was 6 months pregnant in September. When we canceled because of the Hurricane we rebooked for June 8th 2020, which would be 6 months after our second grandchild was born. I had never before used Bank points that late in our August use year, and then this epidemic happened.
However, in the big picture, now having two healthy grandsons is far more important than losing DVC points.
 
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Yes, banked and borrowed points always had the same rule of final transaction...that is true,

That is why, right now, DVCM has decided to treat the points differently, because they must have decided, based on the number of points involved in this loss, putting them back would HELP the situation going forward,

They have not adjusted rules for banked points because allowing them to be banked again, may not be legal, not to mention it would overload the system,
If the resorts open fairly soon, not having the previously borrowed points having to be used before they expire will help the situation going forward by reducing short term demand, since those returned borrowed points would no longer be in a use them or lose them status.

However, if the resorts remain closed past the date where those previously borrowed points would have expired, returning them will HURT the situation going forward.
 
I know this is not a perfect analogy, however, bear with me.
If you wanted to take a vacation that would take two years of your earnings, there are two ways you could fund it.
  • Save last years earnings and deposit those earnings in a bank. Then this year withdraw those banked earnings and combine those with this year’s earnings and pay for your vacation without going into debt.
  • Use this year’s earnings and take out a loan against next year’s earnings to pay for your vacation.
While there is nothing wrong with option 2, I think most would agree option 1 is more financially prudent. If the vacation is cancelled by the provider for any reason, you would probably get your money back in either case, but those who used option 2 would still have the loan.

However, in the case of DVC those of use who prudently chose option 1 will likely lose last year's earnings (points) that we banked, while those that chose the less prudent option 2 will have their loan (borrowing) forgiven.
That does not seem right.

Again, I know this is somewhat of an apple to oranges comparison, so please do not reply just to tell me that. However, I would like to hear what other member think of this post.

Absolutely agree 100%. This is a huge negative for DVC.
 
You have said yourself (I'm not sure where but I read it this morning in another thread.) that points have 3 years worth of "value." So taking the value of ours away at 2 (really 1 for those of us who NEVER borrow points) is fair how?

Points don’t have three years of value, What I was referring to was that if everyone banked and borrowed in the same year, the system is set up to have at most 3 years worth of points in it.

But, that would and could never happen, which is why banking and borrowing is based on statistics and patterns. If those patterns get out whack, they have to adjust the system...per Florida Timeshare Law...to balance supply and demand,

Whether you agree or not, your points represent real estate, You booked your reservation with points that expired May 31st, 2020.

When you chose the dates to use your real estate, you knew the points you used to pay for that stay would expire May 31st, because that was outside your window.

It really doesn’t matter that the closure was out of your control. Owners are responsible for knowing and following the rules, as well as knowing the risks that come with the rules,

You agreed to those rules when you bought, including giving DVCM the right to act on your behalf,

So, it is “fair” because the contract you bought is being adhered to, It states that the resort can be closed and you, as a legal owner, can be kept out if there is a state of emergency.

I know many are not always happy when the rules are quoted, but you asked,

Again, not your fault the resort closed, not saying you should not have traveled when you did, But your choice to travel beyond your banking window, even though you knew it put those points at risk, is playing a role in the loss you are suffering,
 
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