Covid And The Rest of Us

[friedela]

I hadn't heard of that but I LOVE IT!! Why not?

Well. SO many reasons why not. There are actual legal implications. I can forward you a podcast of a lawyer firm for constitutional rights and freedoms that explains it all and how it grossly conflicts with Canadian law and the Charter, even under a "public health crisis." It's pretty interesting and rather eye opening.

But the point was that we have no right to criticize the USA and their offering of free ice cream and lottery tickets to citizens who are vaccinated when Canada is no better.

 

[ronandannette]

Well. SO many reasons why not. There are actual legal implications. I can forward you a podcast of a lawyer firm for constitutional rights and freedoms that explains it all and how it conflicts with Canadian law and the Charter. It's pretty interesting and rather eye opening.

But the point was that we have no right to criticize the USA and their offering of free ice cream and lottery tickets to citizens when Canada is no better.

Can you just give me the gist of it? I'd like to understand your view.

 

[friedela]

Can you just give me the gist of it? I'd like to understand your view.

I can try to sum it up but you should really just take the time to listen to it yourself. I would never try to act as an authority on the topic because I am not a lawyer and the podcast was quite long with a LOT of info. But in essence, medical coercion in the realm of vaccines (particularly new and experimental vaccines) has taken place at the hands of governments in the past, with devastating effects. He talks about the role of Canadian government in terms of public health and how a government which resorts to bribing citizens to take a vaccine they may not understand all the risk of can actually be held legally liable if that person suffers an adverse reaction. He talks about the numerous ethical issues with using fear and bribes as a means to get a person to take a vaccine, rather than leaving medical information in the hands of that persons trusted family doctor to advise citizens on the risks or benefits of that vaccine.

Do you want to listen to it? I can send it your way or share it in another post just let me know. The guy has been a Constitutional lawyer for over 20 years so I would say he is the expert, not me.

 

[friedela]

Here in Calgary we have a low vaccine uptake amongst certain ethnic populations; mostly newcomers to Canada. The province and City is doing all sorts of things to inform them and facilitate their vaccinations as there are several different barriers. The AHS is now offering mobile vaccination clinics at large workplaces and churches. Pop-up clinics are also makeshift soup-kitchens for our street people. I'm highly in favour of all of it.

Yes, I am aware, I am also in Calgary! I actually have NO issue with facilitating vaccines and making them accessible, I actually think that's great. I just have an issue with the government bribing people to get it. I think it is a big decision (as any medical choice is) and people should take the time to really think it through and discuss it with their doctors. I saw a video in the USA of a city that was giving out lottery tickets to people on the spot if they got the jab. One guy was like, "I don't know.. I don't even think I need it, but I just want the free ticket." Clearly he knew nothing about the risks of getting the shot and yes, I know that they are rare.. but IMO any medical decision should be made with all the information and facts before partaking and it doesn't sound like that is what is happening. It calls into question too if everyone is mentally well enough to make that kind of last minute decision without getting medical advice first. It would be much better if he were to speak to his doctor then make an informed choice, rather than making that choice on the spot just to score a free lottery ticket, or ice cream, of whatever it is that is being offered.

 

[ronandannette]

I can try to sum it up but you should really just take the time to listen to it yourself. I would never try to act as an authority on the topic because I am not a lawyer and the podcast was quite long with a LOT of info. But in essence, medical coercion in the realm of vaccines (particularly new and experimental vaccines) has taken place at the hands of governments in the past, with devastating effects. He talks about the role of Canadian government in terms of public health and how a government which resorts to bribing citizens to take a vaccine they may not understand all the risk of can actually be held legally liable if that person suffers an adverse reaction. He talks about the numerous ethical issues with using fear and bribes as a means to get a person to take a vaccine, rather than leaving medical information in the hands of that persons trusted family doctor to advise citizens on the risks or benefits of that vaccine.

Do you want to listen to it? I can send it your way or share it in another post just let me know. The guy has been a Constitutional lawyer for over 20 years so I would say he is the expert, not me.

Howdy neighbour - hot enough for ya?

I honestly think it is a looooog stretch to get from "draw for a year's tuition" to fear and bribery. IDK for sure but I would hope it wouldn't even begin to meet the standard for a constitutional violation.

Please go ahead a post the link to the podcast here.

 

[friedela]

Howdy neighbour - hot enough for ya?

I honestly think it is a looooog stretch to get from "draw for a year's tuition" to fear and bribery. IDK for sure but I would hope it wouldn't even begin to meet the standard for a constitutional violation.

Please go ahead a post the link to the podcast here.

Hahaha. Feeling thankful that we have AC today!!

There's a ton more to it, friend, it's pretty hard to summarize. I would just listen to the experts explain it. It is all new to me but I definitely appreciate how he explains everything. He also talks about the Covid jail hotels, if not in this one than his previous weeks one. He is actually one of the lawyers that is suing the Canadian government to put a stop to the Quarantine hotels:

https://www.jccf.ca/projects-media/podcasts/

 

[ronandannette]

Hahaha. Feeling thankful that we have AC today!!

There's a ton more to it, friend, it's pretty hard to summarize. I would just listen to the experts explain it. It is all new to me but I definitely appreciate how he explains everything. He also talks about the Covid jail hotels, if not in this one than his previous weeks one. He is actually one of the lawyers that is suing the Canadian government to put a stop to the Quarantine hotels:

https://www.jccf.ca/projects-media/podcasts/

Address please? I'm on my way over and we'll hash this out in person.

 

[friedela]

Address please? I'm on my way over and we'll hash this out in person.

Hahaha, love it. lol.

 

[elaine amj]

And many Canadians on the Dis support this. It would have surprised me too. But living in Canada like I do but being from the USA it’s very easy to see the difference of how well the government and news controls the citizens. Unless you live in both countries you’ll never be able to see it. The people there don’t think for themselves as much. Still can’t believe someone in Ontario can’t get a legal haircut. It’s crazy.

I'll take fewer haircuts over the extra body bags they had to use in the good 'ole USA. I actually like that Canadians are not so strongly anti-govt. Kinda peaceful not to be constantly protesting. I have been "studying" the Dis for years to gain a better understanding of the American point of view. It's been really helpful

Don't get me wrong. There's plenty to like about the US. But as for me, I like living in Canada. That said, I do have dreams of snowbirding in Orlando so I can get more WDW time!

I should add that I am one who supports the quarantine hotels. It seems like an extra layer of protection to prevent travelers from bringing the virus into Canada. Wish we could have trusted all travelers to quarantine properly so this wasn't necessary but there's always party poopers who ruin it for everyone else. And we're not the only country to do this nor are we the most rigorous country. Plenty of other countries have used quarantine hotels successfully. It's not going to work 100% but it is sure nice to have an extra layer.

 

[ronandannette]

I'll take fewer haircuts over the extra body bags they had to use in the good 'ole USA. I actually like that Canadians are not so strongly anti-govt. Kinda peaceful not to be constantly protesting. I have been "studying" the Dis for years to gain a better understanding of the American point of view. It's been really helpful

Don't get me wrong. There's plenty to like about the US. But as for me, I like living in Canada. That said, I do have dreams of snowbirding in Orlando so I can get more WDW time!

I should add that I am one who supports the quarantine hotels. It seems like an extra layer of protection to prevent travelers from bringing the virus into Canada. Wish we could have trusted all travelers to quarantine properly so this wasn't necessary but there's always party poopers who ruin it for everyone else. And we're not the only country to do this nor are we the most rigorous country. Plenty of other countries have used quarantine hotels successfully. It's not going to work 100% but it is sure nice to have an extra layer.

Except that the Expert Panel could find no evidence supporting it's efficacy. Really - just none. Read the Panel Report Summary - it's easily accessible through various news outlets.

 

[Karin1984]

One of my LinkedIn contacts works for a company in the Netherlands and they have branched out to Toronto a few years ago.
He posted what he has to do to travel from the Netherlands to Toronto to go to work there.

I am preparing my third 28-day ‘travelling during COVID restrictions’ trip to our Canadian office. Although I had my 1st Pfizer shot, adhere strictly to social distancing rules and am regularly tested, I like to take you through the preparations needed:
1) Canadian Work Permit
2) PCR Test NL before leaving
3) Prepaid non refundable booking for mandatory hotel at airport awaiting result of 2nd PCR test, 2 x 15 minutes a day ‘ fresh air’ at parking lot
4) 1st PCR test Can
5) 11 days mandatory isolation at secure quarantine address, no social interaction
6) Daily reporting about health and safety status through ArriveCAN app
7) 2nd COVID test through Home Kit and Video supervising

… and after this I can travel to Toronto in order to do my work.
According to him it is worth it, to get a balance between virtual and in person meetings.

 

[elaine amj]

Good point. It does look like there are current issues with Canada's hotel quarantine setup. I was reading the expert report to see what those issues are. Some notable quotes:

- While a mandatory three-day initial quarantine in government-authorized accommodations obviously improves compliance during those 3 days, the level of compliance after is uncertain. Requiring a test at day 7 of quarantine to facilitate exit may prove to be an incentive and thus increase compliance, resulting in more robust surveillance.

So the issue here seems to be compliance after the hotel quarantine. And they are hoping they can increase compliance in non-govt quarantine by offering ppl a "legal" way out if they test negative at Day 7.

- Currently, travellers are required to be tested on day 10 of their 14-day quarantine. Internal data from PHAC suggests there are fewer day 10 tests completed compared to number of arrival tests. For example, air travellers submitted 31,616 arrival samples for testing from February 22 to March 6, 2021. However, only 21,100 samples for day 10 quarantine exit tests had been received by March 20.

Obviously a good 1/3 of travellers aren't following the current rules when in their non-govt quarantine. To me, that's an enforcement issue. That said, I can't see Canadians putting up with more intense surveillance and enforcement in personal residences. This is why Australia has a manadatory 14 day hotel quarantine. Sure it's more ideal and safe to quarantine in a private residence. But the problem is trusting travellers to quarantine properly. The panel did comment that Australia's zero covid policy is not applicable to Canada so we shouldn't put so much effort at preventing every case from entering our borders.

In Canada, the current approach to mandatory hotel quarantine:

• is not applied equally to land and air travellers
• is expensive to administer
• provides opportunities for travellers to bypass by paying a fine
• is inconsistent with the incubation period of the virus

All fair points. I always thought it was kinda silly it was required at airports and not at land borders. Too many loopholes, especially with the small fine. And the 3 days never made a whole lot of sense - 7 days would. Then again, maybe 3 days are better than zero?

From my viewpoint, it seems the biggest goal of the mandatory quarantine is discouraging non-essential travel due to extra expense and hassle, therefore reducing the number of cases imported into the country. But if that's not happening, then what is the point?

 

[ronandannette]

Good point. It does look like there are current issues with Canada's hotel quarantine setup. I was reading the expert report to see what those issues are. Some notable quotes:

- While a mandatory three-day initial quarantine in government-authorized accommodations obviously improves compliance during those 3 days, the level of compliance after is uncertain. Requiring a test at day 7 of quarantine to facilitate exit may prove to be an incentive and thus increase compliance, resulting in more robust surveillance.

So the issue here seems to be compliance after the hotel quarantine. And they are hoping they can increase compliance in non-govt quarantine by offering ppl a "legal" way out if they test negative at Day 7.

- Currently, travellers are required to be tested on day 10 of their 14-day quarantine. Internal data from PHAC suggests there are fewer day 10 tests completed compared to number of arrival tests. For example, air travellers submitted 31,616 arrival samples for testing from February 22 to March 6, 2021. However, only 21,100 samples for day 10 quarantine exit tests had been received by March 20.

Obviously a good 1/3 of travellers aren't following the current rules when in their non-govt quarantine. To me, that's an enforcement issue. That said, I can't see Canadians putting up with more intense surveillance and enforcement in personal residences. This is why Australia has a manadatory 14 day hotel quarantine. Sure it's more ideal and safe to quarantine in a private residence. But the problem is trusting travellers to quarantine properly. The panel did comment that Australia's zero covid policy is not applicable to Canada so we shouldn't put so much effort at preventing every case from entering our borders.

In Canada, the current approach to mandatory hotel quarantine:

• is not applied equally to land and air travellers
• is expensive to administer
• provides opportunities for travellers to bypass by paying a fine
• is inconsistent with the incubation period of the virus

All fair points. I always thought it was kinda silly it was required at airports and not at land borders. Too many loopholes, especially with the small fine. And the 3 days never made a whole lot of sense - 7 days would. Then again, maybe 3 days are better than zero?

From my viewpoint, it seems the biggest goal of the mandatory quarantine is discouraging non-essential travel due to extra expense and hassle, therefore reducing the number of cases imported into the country. But if that's not happening, then what is the point?

Indeed. Regardless of how it "could have or should have" worked, what actually ended up happening was a complete and utter folly that the Panel has recommended be concluded immediately. It's also worth pointing out that this is not a partisan political issue. The Expert Panel (officially called the Covid 19 Testing and Screening Expert Advisory Panel) is not hostile to the current government or influenced by the opposition. Each member was hand-picked by the PMO and Ministry of Health. Given their credentials, it is mind-boggling that their recommendations are being actively ignored.

 

[Karin1984]

It was my turn to make my vaccine appointments. Incredibly easy. I got 3 options, 3rd July in my hometown. 26th of June a little further away, or the 22nd another little further away. I chose the 22nd with my second shot on the 27th of July. It doesnt say which one, but most likely Pfizer or otherwise Moderna.

 

[BadPinkTink]

It was my turn to make my vaccine appointments. Incredibly easy. I got 3 options, 3rd July in my hometown. 26th of June a little further away, or the 22nd another little further away. I chose the 22nd with my second shot on the 27th of July. It doesnt say which one, but most likely Pfizer or otherwise Moderna.

oh wow, thats interesting, you could choose locations and dates, I'm still waiting for my appointment. I registered 2 weeks ago

 

[Karin1984]

oh wow, thats interesting, you could choose locations and dates, I'm still waiting for my appointment. I registered 2 weeks ago

It is only three options, if all three of the dates don't fit for whatever reason, you have to call.

 

[Karin1984]

I decided to move my appointment, I forgot that I was going to France and should be in home quarantine on the 22nd. Whooops! I could technically lie about it, chances of getting caught are very small, but as I will be in close proximity of the person giving me the shot.... let's not do that ;-)

In other news from the Netherlands, we reached another threshold. Less than 1000 people in the hospital. Last time we had less than 1.000 people in the hospital was in October. May 19th there were over 2.000 people in the hospital.
About 650 people in normal hospital wings, 350 people in ICU.

Our thresholds where we should be worried if above:
- 40 hospitalizations per day (today at 51)
- 10 ICU per day (today 5)
- New infections 7 per 100K per day, (today at 9,2)
So we are very close to 'beat' this. And hopefully other countries will allow is in again

 

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