Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

does your contract with David prohibit you from contacting the renters directly?
I read it again and it doesn't say anything to that effect. It does say I'm responsible to pay for any reservations I cancel. So I must pay him back. But since I'm not cancelling the reservation then, that becomes a grey area. I have a feeling DVC will cancel two of the reservations as they are in April. So at that point I have to return the money. Right but I prefer to return to the renter but I'm not sure I can. I'll never rent through him again. Never... Never...
 
If you order something with a credit card and the product isn't delivered satisfactorally you can dispute the charge with the credit card company. One advantage of using a CC. This is referred to as a chargeback.

If I rented points during this period the resorts are shut down, I wouldn't wait on this credit from David. I'd be calling my credit card company today.
I’m starting to wonder if I should pursue this now, still haven’t had any contact that relates directly to our rental reservation, and maybe won’t for a while as we’re mid April.
I’ve had generic replies referring to WDW, but our reservation is for the Grand Californian at Disneyland...

We’re in the U.K. and haven’t got a lot of flexibility on ability to rebook, so not happy with the prospect of a credit.

But what would my credit card company expect me to be able to evidence? I’m not sure the lack of personalised comms or mid April date will help me here, combined with their no refunds policy... does anyone have any advice?
 
I get why they are doing it as well. I'm neither a renter or an owner and am following this thread out of interest. The problem I have David's stance here is that this was an unusual situation and nobody deliberately did anything wrong. However David's is asking renters to sactifice by getting some nebuloud credit they may or may not be able to use and he's asking owners to sacrifice by keeping their 30% and asking for 70% back. Nowhere is David saying he's giving anything up. If David's mentioned he was giving up half his commission or something that would do a long way but he's asking everybody else to sacrifice while he gets to keep all the money. I understand why he's doing it (likely has no choice) but i don't like the tactic. In the end he's likely going to wind up screwing both owners and renters.

I am troubled by this as well. He is asking owners & renters to "sacrifice", but what about his share? I think the way he has been handling this will likely end the business even if he survives this cash crunch.

LAX
 


I rented my points to a family with a small child. The reservation was end of March and I was asked to cancel for them. As we all know for a young family going to Disney is a milestone and expensive endeavor. I cancelled and rebooked another reservation for Davids under a different family. Davids will reimbursing family number one and I still get all my money. I was happy to work with them and feel good that family number one is not out money along with a dream vacation. I have been renting my points to Davids for years and not only have they been timely responding to my questions this week but very professional this month and in the previous 7 years I have been using them. I just wanted to share my experience with Davids. Stay safe

If David’s were going to pay my renters the cash back I would be thinking differently about them. In my case the original renters would only get a travel voucher. If I returned the cash to David’s it would go in his pocket rather than being returned to the renter.
 
I’m starting to wonder if I should pursue this now, still haven’t had any contact that relates directly to our rental reservation, and maybe won’t for a while as we’re mid April.
I’ve had generic replies referring to WDW, but our reservation is for the Grand Californian at Disneyland...

We’re in the U.K. and haven’t got a lot of flexibility on ability to rebook, so not happy with the prospect of a credit.

But what would my credit card company expect me to be able to evidence? I’m not sure the lack of personalised comms or mid April date will help me here, combined with their no refunds policy... does anyone have any advice?

Normally it’s relatively easy to do a charge back with the credit card company. When your trip is cancelled you do not need to accept a credit voucher. You need to demand a refund to your credit card from David’s. Do this by email, you may need a written record of your correspondence with them. Only if you have not been able to get a refund from David’s would a credit card company look at providing you with a refund. The refund process will take a few weeks to be completed. When I have had to do this I found the credit card companies to be very helpful. They give the impression they want to help.
 
I read it again and it doesn't say anything to that effect. It does say I'm responsible to pay for any reservations I cancel. So I must pay him back. But since I'm not cancelling the reservation then, that becomes a grey area. I have a feeling DVC will cancel two of the reservations as they are in April. So at that point I have to return the money. Right but I prefer to return to the renter but I'm not sure I can. I'll never rent through him again. Never... Never...
You don’t have to return anything. It’s voluntary.
 


I'm wondering what recourse David's would have if any towards owners? If renters just did a charge back. I mean if owners saying we are keeping the money but we may or may not rebook depending on the expiration of the points then David's will be out the money and the 70% almost twice the amount.

Charge back rules are different in each country, I've read that in the U.S you need to do it with 6 months, in my country I have to do it no later than 13 months from purchase. However i'm not allowed to wait if I know that i'm not getting what I purchased, then I need to file it asap. If I do it later than 3 or 4 months after purchase I think the credit card company (banks in my country) will be on the hook for the money. Thats why they of course prefer you to file the charge back as early as possible.
 
I think the problem is some owners are probably saying "too bad, no refunds" and some renters have done chargebacks. If everyone was like you and in your points situation, this thread probably doesn't exist.

Well because David's isn't actually providing any real information to renters, rightfully so, weeks after contacting them I'm frustrated. I can't contact my owners either. One reservation for mid April has been cancelled but nothing regarding refund or attempt to rebook. Zero information about other 4 nights that still show on my Disney. So yeah he's lack of communication leaves folks with no other option than chargebacks.

The first reservation was done using Citibank and you can dispute online. The second reservation I had to call bank of America business, but oddly that was more comforting- though I'm that case my reservation was cancelled weeks ago and I was not refunded or rebooked (so clearly no goods delivered). Boa said not to worry they are handling many similar situations and will start working on this right away.

David's cannot expect folks to wait months while he sorts out his voucher system. Especially when we are talking about $4000.
 
Well because David's isn't actually providing any real information to renters, rightfully so, weeks after contacting them I'm frustrated. I can't contact my owners either. One reservation for mid April has been cancelled but nothing regarding refund or attempt to rebook. Zero information about other 4 nights that still show on my Disney. So yeah he's lack of communication leaves folks with no other option than chargebacks.

The first reservation was done using Citibank and you can dispute online. The second reservation I had to call bank of America business, but oddly that was more comforting- though I'm that case my reservation was cancelled weeks ago and I was not refunded or rebooked (so clearly no goods delivered). Boa said not to worry they are handling many similar situations and will start working on this right away.

David's cannot expect folks to wait months while he sorts out his voucher system. Especially when we are talking about $4000.

Renters that have used David's or rented privately are in this sort of situation. Renters can do a charge back with those that used Paypal but how will that impact owners except for a balance in overdraft. Its different for those where Paypal can charge their Bank accounts directly.

With that said private rentals can work directly with the owner, to find a solution. However in cases where points are expiring there is really not much the owner can do (not going into discussion about what may or may not be a breach of contract)

Anyhow the rental marked privately or through a broker will change after this.
 
Well because David's isn't actually providing any real information to renters, rightfully so, weeks after contacting them I'm frustrated. I can't contact my owners either. One reservation for mid April has been cancelled but nothing regarding refund or attempt to rebook. Zero information about other 4 nights that still show on my Disney. So yeah he's lack of communication leaves folks with no other option than chargebacks.

The first reservation was done using Citibank and you can dispute online. The second reservation I had to call bank of America business, but oddly that was more comforting- though I'm that case my reservation was cancelled weeks ago and I was not refunded or rebooked (so clearly no goods delivered). Boa said not to worry they are handling many similar situations and will start working on this right away.

David's cannot expect folks to wait months while he sorts out his voucher system. Especially when we are talking about $4000.
I agree with your thoughts on David’s. Credit card charge back is the smart thing to do. Regardless what option you take you will wait months for this to be resolved. I had to wait 3 months for a refund after one of the airlines I booked with went bust.
 
I have a rental scheduled for check-in on April 2nd. DVC has not yet cancelled the reservation, even though they said they would be cancelling all reservations on a week-by-week basis. I assumed this reservation would have been cancelled by now and don't want to cancel it myself because of my contract as an owner with David's. I was also under the assumption that renters would be getting a travel credit in the case where owners would be unable/unwilling to refund the money. I don't see any evidence or proof that this is or is not happening. I have always had a great working relationship with David's and will continue to do business with them until I see proof that they are not doing right by their clients (both owners and renters). This is a herculean undertaking and I think we need to be sympathetic to the difficulty. Is it frustrating not being able to contact anyone, absolutely! But, be happy that we are all healthy enough to be sitting here at our computers browsing through these forums. Put it in perspective. It'll all shake out in the end. Right now, we're all drinking from the firehose. Its not easy, but we need some patience.
 
Sure, but you likely knew it was something you could do if you couldn’t use your points at some point. I’m just saying that resale buyers will know about all the people that got screwed out of their money because of the virus and renting points will be considered risky in the future — hence not a valuable part of owning points. I’ve heard of people that own twice as many points as they need that rent half of them to cover maintenance fees....
Actually we didn't. It wasn't until years later that we were in that situation that we found out.
 
I roughed out some numbers last night and I don't think this is nearly as dire as people are making it out to be. Lots of assumptions but I don't think I'm far off. Start with for a 6 week period (mid march to end of April) David has 10k points he's brokered. Out of that hes collected 200k, kept 45k, payed owners 108K and has 47k sitting in an account for check in day. I'm also assuming a 50% margin on the business meaning 22k of the 45K is profit.

If you assume 1/3 can be rebooked, then take 2/3 of all the above numbers. 132 collected, 30 kept, payed 71 and 31 sitting in an account. Out of the 132 liability now there is essentially 46 cash. the 31 not paid to owners and profit margin on the 30. so the cash needed is 86 at the most. Reduce the liability by 30% for owners who return payments and renters who take a voucher which is either for less value of never used. Leaves about 60k in liability. Now if 7 weeks equates to 22k in profit then you are looking at using the margin for another 21 weeks to cover the liability. Employees still paid, it's the 50% margin you are eating into and with bookings out 11 months covering 4 months is not the end of the world.
 
I roughed out some numbers last night and I don't think this is nearly as dire as people are making it out to be. Lots of assumptions but I don't think I'm far off. Start with for a 6 week period (mid march to end of April) David has 10k points he's brokered. Out of that hes collected 200k, kept 45k, payed owners 108K and has 47k sitting in an account for check in day. I'm also assuming a 50% margin on the business meaning 22k of the 45K is profit.

If you assume 1/3 can be rebooked, then take 2/3 of all the above numbers. 132 collected, 30 kept, payed 71 and 31 sitting in an account. Out of the 132 liability now there is essentially 46 cash. the 31 not paid to owners and profit margin on the 30. so the cash needed is 86 at the most. Reduce the liability by 30% for owners who return payments and renters who take a voucher which is either for less value of never used. Leaves about 60k in liability. Now if 7 weeks equates to 22k in profit then you are looking at using the margin for another 21 weeks to cover the liability. Employees still paid, it's the 50% margin you are eating into and with bookings out 11 months covering 4 months is not the end of the world.
I could vey we’ll be wrong as this is pure speculation on my part but Based on what I’ve seen on forums and Facebook, I think you are underestimating the brokered points. There are individuals talking about $20k they had put out for a rental. If he employs 35 people even if the majority of them are part time making min wage his salaries alone are likely $500k+ Yearly so just to pay them he’d need about $60k over that 6 week period. I think we are talking hundreds of renters affected with an average of at least $3k per Transaction, (again estimates are based solely off of online comments)
 
I could vey we’ll be wrong as this is pure speculation on my part but Based on what I’ve seen on forums and Facebook, I think you are underestimating the brokered points. There are individuals talking about $20k they had put out for a rental. If he employs 35 people even if the majority of them are part time making min wage his salaries alone are likely $500k+ Yearly so just to pay them he’d need about $60k over that 6 week period. I think we are talking hundreds of renters affected with an average of at least $3k per Transaction, (again estimates are based solely off of online comments)

I actually read elsewhere that David's team is 42 employees. I think this is only the tip of the iceberg, and actual numbers are much higher.
 
I could vey we’ll be wrong as this is pure speculation on my part but Based on what I’ve seen on forums and Facebook, I think you are underestimating the brokered points. There are individuals talking about $20k they had put out for a rental. If he employs 35 people even if the majority of them are part time making min wage his salaries alone are likely $500k+ Yearly so just to pay them he’d need about $60k over that 6 week period. I think we are talking hundreds of renters affected with an average of at least $3k per Transaction, (again estimates are based solely off of online comments)

i believe you are right. I have rented with David’s 5 times with an average of around $2400.
 
I’d caution against having too much confidence on a successful chargeback by the renter. The contract said it was non refundable and the renter was advised to purchase travel insurance. Granted nobody expected a pandemic, but cancel for any reason travel insurance does exist. David’s response to the chargeback will be that the renter should have purchased this type of insurance. Now he would certainly want to avoid the chargeback because it’s determined on a case by case basis, and he might lose. So he is offering the travel credit to avoid as many of those as possible.

Disney is refunding points for resorts that are closed, basically restoring them to whatever status they were before. There are really three categories of points status on the date of cancellation: 1). those that are in current UY that are still bankable, 2). those are are in current UY that are not bankable, and 3). those that were banked from previous UY. Not counting borrowed points because they will be restored to the future UY. Doubt there is a lot of those being rented anyways since rental prices had been going up.

If my points are in category 1 - points that are still bankable say by end of April (which seems to be when the feds are aiming to lift social distancing), I will provide a refund of the 70% paid to David’s and offer to re-rent my points, with the hope that the cash will allow David’s to survive this. Because If they don’t, I won’t get my remaining 30%. He is unlikely to get new reservations (and new cash) for the foreseeable future, so these points will likely be re-rented to someone with a travel credit. If the points are still bankable when I get them back due to a cancellation, then no harm no foul really, I don’t mind refunding the cash to give David’s a lifeline.

If my points are in category 2 and 3, the points are worth significantly less value to me, but I do already have the 70% which limits my maximum loss to 30% - the same amount I would have lost if David’s cease to exist. I am not providing a refund of any cash since that might be throwing good money after bad. However I will certainly offer to re-rent and it’s up to David’s to pull off the logistics of using those points given the more limited usage window. If David’s go under, that 70% I got would be enough to cover my MF, and then I have control in how to try to help the underlying renter.

If David’s go under, the bankruptcy trustee may go after the 70% he paid me for a reservation that had been cancelled. However I doubt a Canadian judgement is enforceable in the US.

David’s lose if the owner keeps the 70% payment AND the cancelled points. They will obviously never work with you again, but they may no longer exist in a couple months. They can probably come after you, although I don’t think they have the resource to do so. I’d hope owners won’t do this since we all benefit from a vibrant rental market. David’s also lose if the renter successfully pull off a chargeback. I think they are doing the right thing to try to minimize potential damage. If they do lose a chargeback, they don’t have to pay new cash to the credit card company, as the chargeback will be against future new credit card charges. If they got the points back from the owner to re-rent, then they are not spending new cash to fulfill reservations either. In theory they can survive the chargebacks.

This is a cash flow / liquidity issue. They can survive this if they can successfully utilize points in categories 2 and 3 to fulfill travel credit demands, while having the cash flow to weather through the storm before going under (they will get no new cash in for the foreseeable future due to significant drop off in travel demand - see the troubles with airlines / cruises / hotels right now). Large companies have credit lines for this reason. I hope he has access to liquidity to weather through this as he does have a good business model. I think this is why he is basically begging for the 70% back to get cash now.

Given current technology, it’s only a matter of time before a vaccine is developed, and people have short memories. The market will be depressed this year and possibly next, but Disney and DVC will be fine. David’s may not exist, but a new company will fill the void, with new contract terms that spell out force majeure.
 
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I read it again and it doesn't say anything to that effect. It does say I'm responsible to pay for any reservations I cancel. So I must pay him back. But since I'm not cancelling the reservation then, that becomes a grey area. I have a feeling DVC will cancel two of the reservations as they are in April. So at that point I have to return the money. Right but I prefer to return to the renter but I'm not sure I can. I'll never rent through him again. Never... Never...

Who says you have to return the money? David's is ASKING for a return of the money or the opportunity to re-use the points for a new booking because he KNOWS that he has no legal leg to stand on regarding points he rented from you. If you can get your points back and re-use them, then let your conscience be your guide regarding a refund. If you get back points that are worthless because they can't be used or banked, then tell him no refund AND he owes you the last payment of 30%. As many others have pointed out, if you let him re-rent your points you will not receive the final payment that he withheld until check-in day.
 
I’d caution against having too much confidence on a successful chargeback by the renter. The contract said it was non refundable and the renter was advised to purchase travel insurance. Granted nobody expected a pandemic, but cancel for any reason travel insurance does exist. David’s response to the chargeback will be that the renter should have purchased this type of insurance. Now he would certainly want to avoid the chargeback because it’s determined on a case by case basis, and he might lose. So he is offering the travel credit to avoid as many of those as possible.

Disney is refunding points for resorts that are closed, basically restoring them to whatever status they were before. There are really three categories of points status on the date of cancellation: 1). those that are in current UY that are still bankable, 2). those are are in current UY that are not bankable, and 3). those that were banked from previous UY. Not counting borrowed points because they will be restored to the future UY. Doubt there is a lot of those being rented anyways since rental prices had been going up.

If my points are in category 1 - points that are still bankable say by end of April (which seems to be when the feds are aiming to lift social distancing), I will provide a refund of the 70% paid to David’s and offer to re-rent my points, with the hope that the cash will allow David’s to survive this. Because If they don’t, I won’t get my remaining 30%. He is unlikely to get new reservations (and new cash) for the foreseeable future, so these points will likely be re-rented to someone with a travel credit. If the points are still bankable when I get them back due to a cancellation, then no harm no foul really, I don’t mind refunding the cash to give David’s a lifeline.

If my points are in category 2 and 3, the points are worth significantly less value to me, but I do already have the 70% which limits my maximum loss to 30% - the same amount I would have lost if David’s cease to exist. I am not providing a refund of any cash since that might be throwing good money after bad. However I will certainly offer to re-rent and it’s up to David’s to pull off the logistics of using those points given the more limited usage window.

David’s lose if the owner keeps the 70% payment AND the cancelled points. They will obviously never work with you again, but they may no longer exist in a couple months. They can probably come after you, although I don’t think they have the resource to do so. I’d hope owners won’t do this since we all benefit from a vibrant rental market. David’s also lose if the renter successfully pull off a chargeback. I think they are doing the right thing to try to minimize potential damage. If they do lose a chargeback, they don’t have to pay new cash to the credit card company, as the chargeback will be against future new credit card charges. If they got the points back from the owner to re-rent, then they are not spending new cash to fulfill reservations either. In theory they can survive the chargebacks.

This is a cash flow / liquidity issue. They can survive this if they can successfully utilize points in categories 2 and 3 to fulfill travel credit demands, while having the cash flow to weather through the storm before going under (they will get no new cash in for the foreseeable future due to significant drop off in travel demand - see the troubles with airlines / cruises / hotels right now). Large companies have credit lines for this reason. I hope he has access to liquidity to weather through this as he does have a good business model. I think this is why he is basically begging for the 70% back to get cash now.

Given current technology, it’s only a matter of time before a vaccine is developed, and people have short memories. The market will be depressed this year and possibly next, but Disney and DVC will be fine. David’s may not exist, but a new company will fill the void, with new contract terms that spell out force majeure.

I think you ignore the fact that possibly 50% of small businesses will go out of business. This disrupts jobs for not only the owner but all the employees. If the owners have no money left and no credit, they won't be reopening. I think the concept that everything will just bounce back is overly optimistic. Some mortgage companies are giving 90 days but at end you owe all three months. If you were out of work where does money come from?
 

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