DVC dues reduction due to shutdown?

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Visiting the Magic Since 1973
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Nov 14, 2018
Does anyone know how much yearly dues will go down due to the shutdown. I know Disney said they would be paying cast members during the 2 week shutdown however there are other thing like utility's,cost to run buses/boats non payroll related(fuel),Collage program cast that were sent home and other non payroll items required to run a resort.
If the Vacation club is not incurring a cost will we get a reduction in dues?
 
Someone mentioned that any potential savings most like would go into the capital reserve fund, so no real impact on dues.

But, I think it all depends on what happens too in length. Salaries and benefits make up a big part of the annual budget and as of right now, that is not changing.
 
Disney has decided to pay their cast members, but has DVC decided to contract out staff during the shutdown? Doesn't really make sense. DVC is not in an employee, employer relationship with most of the cast members (from my understanding atleast). If this shutdown were to last a long tome, I would expect there to be a reduction in annual dues.
 
Disney has decided to pay their cast members, but has DVC decided to contract out staff during the shutdown? Doesn't really make sense. DVC is not in an employee, employer relationship with most of the cast members (from my understanding atleast). If this shutdown were to last a long tome, I would expect there to be a reduction in annual dues.

DVCM has a property manage contract with Disney to oversee operations of the resort. If I understand our contract, those are 3 year terms that get renewed regularly

I do not know what rights, under that agreement, DVCM has to cancel or amend that contract because of Disney’s decision to continue to pay CMs,

To see that agreement, one has to request it and it would be provided.
 


This year's dues were determined late last year. This year's dues apply to all operational costs incurred in 2020 and to an estimated addition to capital reserves for the year for future capital improvements (e.g., refurbs). They were payable in full by mid-Feb 2020. Though many are paying monthly, what they owed and what they would pay for this year was absolutely determined by the beginning of the year.

You will receive a dues statement for 2021 in late December 2020. That statement will apply to all expected costs in 2021 and will not apply to any excess costs or savings in 2020 except as follows:

If actual 2020 property taxes end up being lower than provided by the 2020 budget, the savings will be used to offset the amount of property taxes estimated for 2021, thus lowering dues somewhat. However, if the actual property taxes for 2020 exceed the budgeted amount, the excess amount will be added to dues for 2021, thus raising dues somewhat. One concern is that the local government agencies may attempt in 2021 to recover some of the lost revenues, which is likely to occur because of the pandemic, by raising property taxes payable in 2021, which could result in higher dues in the future.

If the budgeted amounts (except for the property taxes) exceed the actual costs for 2020, a possibility resulting from the coronavirus pandemic and resulting closure of the resorts, any excess goes into the capital reserves budget. That could possibly lead to a lowering of dues in 2021 because the capital reserves budget for 2021 may not need to be as high as usual because of the addition that might occur from savings from 2020 operational costs. Whether there will actually be lower operational costs than budgeted in 2020 is an unknown at this time. The closure of the resorts likely results in some savings of costs but many costs will still be incurred, e.g., you still need to buy many supplies because the lawns will still be cut, needed repairs will likely still occur, special disinfecting operations to the resorts may add costs. Moreover, the employees will continue to be paid their wages and benefits. Under the Property Management Subcontract (a document you need to spoecifically request a copy of from DVC because it is not included in the POS documents given to purchasers), all the employees at the resorts are employees of the Disney resorts and parks company not DVC, except possibly for those in the DVD sales centers, and there are actually some, like the valet personnel, who are employees of outside contractors and not Disney. Under the Property Management Subcontract, DVC agrees to pay Disney a reasonable and equitable share (the actual percentage or total amount is not specified) of the total employee costs based on the proportion of budgeted amounts of employees and services to be provided to DVC resorts. In any event, if there is any savings from the budgeted amounts for 2020, such will only go to possibly keep the capital reserves amount for 2021 lower than anticipated. It does not appear from the subcontract that DVCM could refuse to pay the employee costs incurred as a result of Disney's decision to pay employees while the parks and resorts are closed.

There is also some risk that total 2020 costs could be higher than the budgeted costs for a DVC resort. As permitted by statute, DVC annually provides a guarantee that if actual costs (other than for property taxes) in the year exceed the budgeted costs, DVD will cover the difference. That allows DVD to avoid paying annual dues for portions of the resort owned by it but not sold (e.g., on all the property/points DVC is holding as a result of exercising ROFR while being held until a future sale). That guarantee thus means if normal costs exceed the annual budgeted costs, DVD absorbs the difference. However, one exception to that guarantee are costs resulting from a natural disaster or an act of God which are not covered by insurance. The coronavirus pandemic, can be considered such a natural disaster or an act of God. The uninsured costs could either be assessed via a special assessment or added to the next year's budget (or even other future years), something that has occurred in he past for Vero and Hilton Head as a result of hurricanes for portions of repairs that fall within insurance deductibles. It is doubtful DVC has insurance to cover additional losses and expenses caused by the coronavirus pandemic. Some have mentioned that it has business interruption insurance that could apply but that is unlikely because such insurance is generally limited to losses resulting from "physical damage to property" caused by a natural disaster or act of God, e.g., the lost income incurred while repairing physical damage to a place of business that is closed while such repairs occur. Thus, while members may be thinking costs will be saved by the closure of the resorts, DVC could raise next year's dues by uninsured amounts incurred because of the coronavirus pandemic, e.g., those costs to disinfect the resorts, additional resort administrative costs to deal with the pandemic, possibly others.

Bottom line is that whether 2021 dues will be impacted is currently an unknown and one should not be currently assuming the costs for 2020 will necessarily lower 2021 dues simply because the resorts are currently closed.
 
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This year's dues were determined late last year. This year's dues apply to all operational costs incurred in 2020 and to an estimated addition to capital reserves for the year for future capital improvements (e.g., refurbs). They were payable in full by mid-Feb 2020. Though many are paying monthly, what they owed and what they would pay for this year was absolutely determined by the beginning of the year.

You will receive a dues statement for 2021 in late December 2020. That statement will apply to all expected costs in 2021 and will not apply to any excess costs or savings in 2020 except as follows:

If actual 2020 property taxes end up being lower than provided by the 2020 budget, the savings will be used to offset the amount of property taxes estimated for 2021, thus lowering dues somewhat. However, if the actual property taxes for 2020 exceed the budgeted amount, the excess amount will be added to dues for 2021, thus raising dues somewhat. One concern is that the local government agencies may attempt in 2021 to recover some of the lost revenues, which is likely to occur because of the pandemic, by raising property taxes payable in 2021, which could result in higher dues in the future.

If the budgeted amounts (except for the property taxes) exceed the actual costs for 2020, a possibility resulting from the coronavirus pandemic and resulting closure of the resorts, any excess goes into the capital reserves budget. That could possibly lead to a lowering of dues in 2021 because the capital reserves budget for 2021 may not need to be as high as usual because of the addition that might occur from savings from 2020 operational costs. Whether there will actually be lower operational costs than budgeted in 2020 is an unknown at this time. The closure of the resorts likely results in some savings of costs but many costs will still be incurred, e.g., you still need to buy many supplies because the lawns will still be cut, needed repairs will likely still occur, special disinfecting operations to the resorts may add costs. Moreover, the employees will continue to be paid their wages and benefits. Under the Property Management Subcontract (a document you need to spoecifically request a copy of from DVC because it is not included in the POS documents given to purchasers), all the employees at the resorts are employees of the Disney resorts and parks company not DVC, except possibly for those in the DVD sales centers, and there are actually some, like the valet personnel, who are employees of outside contractors and not Disney. Under the Property Management Subcontract, DVC agrees to pay Disney a reasonable and equitable share (the actual percentage or total amount is not specified) of the total employee costs based on the proportion of budgeted amounts of employees and services to be provided to DVC resorts. In any event, if there is any savings from the budgeted amounts for 2020, such will only go to possibly keep the capital reserves amount for 2021 lower than anticipated. It does not appear from the subcontract that DVCM could refuse to pay the employee costs incurred as a result of Disney's decision to pay employees while the parks and resorts are closed.

There is also some risk that total 2020 costs could be higher than the budgeted costs for a DVC resort. As permitted by statute, DVC annually provides a guarantee that if actual costs (other than for property taxes) in the year exceed the budgeted costs, DVD will cover the difference. That allows DVD to avoid paying annual dues for portions of the resort owned by it but not sold (e.g., on all the property/points DVC is holding as a result of exercising ROFR while being held until a future sale). That guarantee thus means if normal costs exceed the annual budgeted costs, DVD absorbs the difference. However, one exception to that guarantee are costs resulting from a natural disaster or an act of God which are not covered by insurance. The coronavirus pandemic, can be considered such a natural disaster or an act of God. The uninsured costs could either be assessed via a special assessment or added to the next year's budget (or even other future years), something that has occurred in he past for Vero and Hilton Head as a result of hurricanes for portions of repairs that fall within insurance deductibles. It is doubtful DVC has insurance to cover additional losses and expenses caused by the coronavirus pandemic. Some have mentioned that it has business interruption insurance that could apply but that is unlikely because such insurance is generally limited to losses resulting from "physical damage to property" caused by a natural disaster or act of God, e.g., the lost income incurred while repairing physical damage to a place of business that is closed while such repairs occur. Thus, while members may be thinking costs will be saved by the closure of the resorts, DVC could raise next year's dues by uninsured amounts incurred because of the coronavirus pandemic, e.g., those costs to disinfect the resorts, additional resort administrative costs to deal with the pandemic, possibly others.

Bottom line is that whether 2021 dues will be impacted is currently an unknown and one should not be currently assuming the costs for 2020 will necessarily lower 2021 dues simply because the resorts are currently closed.

Question. If DVC decided to reimburse dues to those owners whose points actually expired during resort closures, or even those who were beyond banking window and points lost..April UY and June UY..do you think that could be a cost that could then be added as a special assessment similar to when there is resort damage?

Not even sure that move would be legally allowed.
 
Question. If DVC decided to reimburse dues to those owners whose points actually expired during resort closures, or even those who were beyond banking window and points lost..April UY and June UY..do you think that could be a cost that could then be added as a special assessment similar to when there is resort damage?

Not even sure that move would be legally allowed.

I have not yet figured out a way that DVC could legally pay any money out of dues collected to compensate members who lose points because of coronavirus closures. Dues apply regardless of whether points are actually used by members. Moreover, they are purely on a calendar annual dues system while there are no points or use years on such a system, i.e., no contracts start in January. Moreover, the documents dictate that any dues money actually saved, because overalll costs are less than anticipated for the year, is required to be added to the capital reserves for the resort

Absent money from dues, the money to return any portion of dues to some members would have to come from another source such as rental income, particularly breakage income, that DVCM gets for rooms it can rent. The breakage income goes first to offset up to 2.5% of the annual budget, next to BVTC for costs, plus 5% of such total costs, incurred in operating the exchange systems, including the DVC Reservation Component, the system that applies to 7-montgh reservations of DVC resorts. Anything left-over after that goes to DVCM basically as profit. Potentially, DVCM could choose to use that money, or some of it, to provide a dues offset, but I am guessing the chances of that happening, particularly with the modern DVC, are close to zero.

Possibly, there could be non-money benefits paid. For example, we know DVC has made points available for 7-month reservations, up to 24 points per use year. I do not see a problem with such a system for members who actually lose banked or current use year points because of a resort closing for a trip scheduled near the end of the members' use year, and the amount of points DVC could provide for a future reservation, if DVC actually has enough, could be defined by the number of points actually lost by the member. DVCM could possibly do that for no charge or significantly reduced charge from the current point cost for such points. I give low probability for that possible solution also, but one that might have a little more of a chance than having a DVC company pay any money to members.
 
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Even if they do, you're talking pennies. I ran the numbers and I think for BLT and you need a 50K change in budget to affect dues by 1 cent.
 
Question. If DVC decided to reimburse dues to those owners whose points actually expired during resort closures, or even those who were beyond banking window and points lost..April UY and June UY..do you think that could be a cost that could then be added as a special assessment similar to when there is resort damage?

Not even sure that move would be legally allowed.

Just out of curiosity. When DVC reservations were affected by hurricane-related closures in the past, what happened to expiring points on those reservations?

LAX
 
Just out of curiosity. When DVC reservations were affected by hurricane-related closures in the past, what happened to expiring points on those reservations?

LAX

I am not sure other than most times resorts don’t actually close. But, in the cases I do remember, it was VB or HH. So you aren’t talking that many, but I have not ever seen anyone who was allowed double banking.

And, there are a few months of the year that aren’t months with expiring points. For example, no one has points expire in April due to no May UY. So, it’s very possible that some of those short term closures happened in October which wouldn’t have expiring points.
 
I am not sure other than most times resorts don’t actually close. But, in the cases I do remember, it was VB or HH. So you aren’t talking that many, but I have not ever seen anyone who was allowed double banking.

And, there are a few months of the year that aren’t months with expiring points. For example, no one has points expire in April due to no May UY. So, it’s very possible that some of those short term closures happened in October which wouldn’t have expiring points.

We are definitely in uncharted territory now, but I was curious how similar situations may have been handled in the past. I know there are already other threads discussing potential imbalance in the next year or two because people are likely to move their upcoming reservations to later, which would leave resorts half-empty (or worse) in the next few months, so allow double-banking may not be practical even as a one-time exception.

I have commented in another thread that someone stands to lose something during this pandemic. I guess the question now would be is it fair to "share the pain amongst all DVC owners" or "leave those unfortunate ones suffering by themselves."

LAX
 
We are definitely in uncharted territory now, but I was curious how similar situations may have been handled in the past. I know there are already other threads discussing potential imbalance in the next year or two because people are likely to move their upcoming reservations to later, which would leave resorts half-empty (or worse) in the next few months, so allow double-banking may not be practical even as a one-time exception.

I have commented in another thread that someone stands to lose something during this pandemic. I guess the question now would be is it fair to "share the pain amongst all DVC owners" or "leave those unfortunate ones suffering by themselves."

LAX

It was just announced that Orange County has a 2 week stay put order which appears to prevent opening.

So, you are now looking at a month worth of closure and lost inventory, so any plans that may have worked with A few weeks, now you are looking at many more points.

I am glad I am not a board of director or executive at DVC having to decide because no matter what they do, owners will be upset
 
It was just announced that Orange County has a 2 week stay put order which appears to prevent opening.

So, you are now looking at a month worth of closure and lost inventory, so any plans that may have worked with A few weeks, now you are looking at many more points.

I am glad I am not a board of director or executive at DVC having to decide because no matter what they do, owners will be upset

Don't be kidding yourself, those BOD/executives at DVC don't really care that we get upset. Between the increasing restrictions, the lock-off premium attempt, & other actions, those things show that they really only care what's in their best interests.

LAX
 
Question. If DVC decided to reimburse dues to those owners whose points actually expired during resort closures, or even those who were beyond banking window and points lost..April UY and June UY..do you think that could be a cost that could then be added as a special assessment similar to when there is resort damage?

Not even sure that move would be legally allowed.
I think that the "in the best interest of the majority of members" requirement would likely not allow this
 
Don't be kidding yourself, those BOD/executives at DVC don't really care that we get upset. Between the increasing restrictions, the lock-off premium attempt, & other actions, those things show that they really only care what's in their best interests.

LAX

I expect them to make the hard decisions, regardless of thst, but I still wouldn't want to be them having to explain to owners.

It seems to me that we have many owners who really don’t understand the entire workings of owning a timeshare.
 
I expect them to make the hard decisions, regardless of thst, but I still wouldn't want to be them having to explain to owners.

It seems to me that we have many owners who really don’t understand the entire workings of owning a timeshare.
Based on some comments here but especially on other sites including FB, some owners seem to think they joined an affinity club similar to an airline or hotel rewards program rather than purchasing real estate.
 
Just out of curiosity. When DVC reservations were affected by hurricane-related closures in the past, what happened to expiring points on those reservations?

LAX
We had to leave early when Matthew blew through. Caught one of the last planes out before MCO shut down. MS returned the points from the remaining nights to our account. We didn't ask them to do it. I just wanted to get home. IIRC, points showed up a few days after WDW returned to normal operations.
 
We had to leave early when Matthew blew through. Caught one of the last planes out before MCO shut down. MS returned the points from the remaining nights to our account. We didn't ask them to do it. I just wanted to get home. IIRC, points showed up a few days after WDW returned to normal operations.

Thanks for reporting your experience. I think it's a given that points used for reservations during closure will be returned, but the important issue is the returned points being soon to expire. I guess if owners in the past were to assume the risk of those points becoming worthless when planning trip so close to the end of their "shelf-life", then may be the same applies here although it's definitely at a much larger scale.

I remember doing my research when I was looking to purchase and many people here stressed the importance of picking the "right" UY because booking trips near the end of an UY has inherent risks.

LAX
 
Thanks for reporting your experience. I think it's a given that points used for reservations during closure will be returned, but the important issue is the returned points being soon to expire. I guess if owners in the past were to assume the risk of those points becoming worthless when planning trip so close to the end of their "shelf-life", then may be the same applies here although it's definitely at a much larger scale.

I remember doing my research when I was looking to purchase and many people here stressed the importance of picking the "right" UY because booking trips near the end of an UY has inherent risks.

LAX

I know it’s not a popular opinion, but that is my feeling. Traveling late in the UY is a risky move and while I can sympathize with an owner, I am not sure that I agree that a huge policy change should happen. But, DVC has all the info and will have to figure out if they need to hold the line, or can accommodate without a larger impact down the road
 
I know it’s not a popular opinion, but that is my feeling. Traveling late in the UY is a risky move and while I can sympathize with an owner, I am not sure that I agree that a huge policy change should happen. But, DVC has all the info and will have to figure out if they need to hold the line, or can accommodate without a larger impact down the road

Personally, I agree with you even though my "stake" is admittedly small (only about 30 borrowed points that won't expire until later in the year, which can likely be salvaged to some extents). I think it would be awesome if DVC/Disney can help out (even partially if not fully), but it shouldn't be expected, IMHO.

LAX
 

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