Have any other DVC owners lost their points because of Disney's closures?

tjkraz

<img src="http://www.wdwinfo.com/images/silver.jpg
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
The DVC reservation system has a tremendous amount of flexibility, particularly thanks to the banking and borrowing provisions. The number of points banked could (theoretically) double or triple in one year, and the system would adapt. People who simply cannot get a room will be forced to bank, and with availability already tight there will be less borrowing. Within a few years the problem should work itself out.

That said, DVC has a responsibility to make sure that the system bends without breaking.

It would be great if the resorts re-opened (in some capacity) on June 1 and DVC concluded that they could restore all points to all owners. But if the opening is delayed to July or August or September, the emphasis shifts to first protecting the rights of points from 2020 and beyond.

As for offering some other form of non-cash compensation, I'm confident that DVC/DVD/TWDC could work together to make that happen. Things like dining discounts and limited-time AP incentives are certainly the results of previous internal negotiation and bookkeeping transfers.

But once you start laying-out specific terms of the offer, plans quickly get messy and it becomes a question of the haves vs the have nots. You have to be very careful to not turn a generous make-good into something where people on both sides of the fence start feeling like they should have been treated better.

The simplest approach (in my opinion) is to keep compensation points-based. Even if there are special conditions and restrictions applied to the points, like forced to use for Disney Collection, something like that.
 

graychef

Mouseketeer
Joined
Feb 17, 2014
...But now when I try to book my room next year, you've taken my room. There is now no inventory for me. I've now lost my points.
...

One way or another, someone is losing points. It's either you or me.
Do you understand the selfishness in your quote? As long as YOU don’t lose, Disney should not exercise flexibility. But if you might miss out on something, screw everyone else. I’m betting you’d have a different position if you stood to lose 200 points.
 

CanadaDisney05

DIS Veteran
Joined
Mar 20, 2017
Do you understand the selfishness in your quote? As long as YOU don’t lose, Disney should not exercise flexibility. But if you might miss out on something, screw everyone else. I’m betting you’d have a different position if you stood to lose 200 points.
I'm not literally talking about me. It's an illustration.

The point was, someone is going to lose their points one way or another. Those who want to allow them to extend banking deadlines because they stand to lose just want someone else to take the fall. It's the exact same selfishness that your trying to point out.
 
  • DebbieB

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Aug 24, 1999
    I'm not literally talking about me. It's an illustration.

    The point was, someone is going to lose their points one way or another. Those who want to allow them to extend banking deadlines because they stand to lose just want someone else to take the fall. It's the exact same selfishness that your trying to point out.
    Which is why DVC has to tread carefully, fear of lawsuits.
     

    Alice Sr.

    My little Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Apr 26, 2000
    While the complexities of doing the accounting for transfer pricing can be complex, at the end of the day Disney is one corporate umbrella. Leadership setup a financial and legal structure as part of a larger strategy, but along with forming that structure comes some drawbacks that they were well aware of. Setting up the organization this way was a matter of choice, not a requirement. I don't think as a consumer we should be letting Disney off the hook because of the complexities of transfer pricing. As a consumer, I don't care that these are different legal entities. At the end of the day, its the same leaders making decisions and the same shareholders profiting off of the structure leadership setup.

    Edit: Just to be clear so I don't contradict myself. I don't believe that Disney is obligated to give anything to DVC members who's points expired, but I do think it would be a gesture of goodwill. I however, don't buy into the BS excuse that they can't give away things like tickets, or hotel rooms, or dining plans, or whatever else because these are profit centre's from separate entities. Resorts can charge DVC full price to satisfy transfer pricing rules. Outside of some potential negligible tax issues, it doesn't really matter if one entities' revenue is higher and one is lower this year. At the end of the day, shareholders earn the same profit, and any management's compensation can be made whole by the higher ups.
    What I am suggesting is that hiding behind the excuse of "hotels and parks and DVC and movies and Disney plus, etc... are all different eldivisions, therefore there their is no real way to compensate anyone using tools outside of their own entity" is BS. It's a fictional wall that they can tear down at anytime if they so choose.
    I don't understand why you think Disney's internal accounting delineations are ok to 'tear down' but using DVC's points as a short-term countermeasure to flatten the curve on an incoming flux of points created by a very defined event is not. To me it seems like the same thing.
    At the end of the day, can you treat cash guests that much better than your own members who have paid in way more and made longer commitments TO DISNEY (aka not just dvc). To the customer it is irrelevant what entities report where for accounting purposes.
    ::yes::
    The system is well developed and situations like this may require a bit of work but good accounting means you don't make decisions solely based on accounting. they make business decisions and you figure out how to account for it.
    ::yes::
    It's a small number of people in the grand scheme of things, but if this things last 3+ months, that's a significant number of points to disrupt the entire system. I've mentioned this several times before. If they allowed banking of those points, that's great for you because you get to bank those points. You then get to book a room next year with those points that you otherwise wouldn't have booked. Again, that's fantastic for you. But now when I try to book my room next year, you've taken my room. There is now no inventory for me. I've now lost my points.

    There's a perfect amount of points in the system to book every single room every single day of the year. One way or another, someone is losing points. It's either you or me.
    I disagree with your concept of the booking system's effectiveness to ebb and flow. My suggestion would likely require DVC to use some of its points to make more availability for the short-term. I would not suggest that the stranded 2019 points have the option to be banked if it were going diminish my fellow members' point usage.
    It's a simplification for sure. the assumptions are used for illustration purposes, not an exact scenario None of us have the actual data.

    You are right, it's not a zero sum game. But the flexibility in the system is not designed to handle an extra 25+% points either. So maybe it's not literally a you vs me scenario with 100% precision, it's pretty close
    I would never wish on you (literally or otherwise) what is happening to the affected 2019 UY group and I doubt there are many (if any) in the same boat that would. I disagree with your opinion on the flexibility of the system and think it would be even more resilient if DVC would offer up their points allocation to be used by it's members (DVC would choose not to book all of the points they have available for cash). This is a better apples to apples solution than offering free dining, or AP's.
    I'm not literally talking about me. It's an illustration.

    The point was, someone is going to lose their points one way or another. Those who want to allow them to extend banking deadlines because they stand to lose just want someone else to take the fall. It's the exact same selfishness that your trying to point out.
    Yikes, not at all. I do however, understand that Disney or DVC (depending how you choose to look at it) will be out some cash, there are no free lunches. But many less "respectable" corporations have chosen to take on additional financial burden to lessen the burden on it's customer base. I'm just surprised Disney is not leading the pack.
     

    CanadaDisney05

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 20, 2017
    I don't understand why you think Disney's internal accounting delineations are ok to 'tear down' but using DVC's points as a short-term countermeasure to flatten the curve on an incoming flux of points created by a very defined event is not. To me it seems like the same thing.
    I don't think DVCM can do anything about lost points. They are gone. But I do think they have other tools they can use as a gesture of goodwill if they choose. Things like free dining, free park tickets, free hotel rooms (not DVC) etc... Any of these would be a gesture of goodwill by the company. Not something that should be expected by DVC owners.

    I disagree with your concept of the booking system's effectiveness to ebb and flow. My suggestion would likely require DVC to use some of its points to make more availability for the short-term. I would not suggest that the stranded 2019 points have the option to be banked if it were going diminish my fellow members' point usage.
    Without the information in front of us, none of us really know. It's all speculation. We are all guessing. The only evidence I can point to that suggests that the system doesn't have the flexibility that you suggest, is that management has come out and said that it doesn't. You can choose to believe them or not.

    I would never wish on you (literally or otherwise) what is happening to the affected 2019 UY group and I doubt there are many (if any) in the same boat that would. I disagree with your opinion on the flexibility of the system and think it would be even more resilient if DVC would offer up their points allocation to be used by it's members (DVC would choose not to book all of the points they have available for cash). This is a better apples to apples solution than offering free dining, or AP's.
    1. As an owner, you are asking essentially your "employee" (DVCM) to compensate you for your loss by them giving you their points.

    2. Disney owns 2% of the points. We are looking at probably 25+% of inventory gone. Disney's share is simply not big enough.

    Yikes, not at all. I do however, understand that Disney or DVC (depending how you choose to look at it) will be out some cash, there are no free lunches. But many less "respectable" corporations have chosen to take on additional financial burden to lessen the burden on it's customer base. I'm just surprised Disney is not leading the pack.
    This is the problem here. Nobody has come up with a real solution to the problem. The only "creative" solution I keep seeing is "Disney is a big corporation. I'm just an individual. Disney should give me free stuff to make me whole".

    The difference between this situation and the ones your suggesting is that this is not a Business and Customer transaction. When it comes to DVC, we are not the customer. We own the property. We are the ones who shut it down. We are the ones who created the overflow of points. We are the ones who created the problem (due to outside forces). DVCM is just hired help. We hired them to put rules in place and manage the resorts and system so that we don't have to do it ourselves. Why are you asking your hired help to pull out of their pockets to help you because you suffered a loss? Just because they have more money than you?
     

    emelle24

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    Aug 29, 2012
    I am sorry but I think all owners should feel outraged. I understand the POS documents perfectly well. However, this is not a typical situation effecting a single company. I stand to lose 200 points for a Aulani vacation using a combination of banked and current UY points. That is the result of very good planning on our part initially - banking points in 2018 to 2019UY so they would be available for a trip of a lifetime in Hawaii this Spring. No one could predict covid-19, nor should we expect that DVCM would have an immediate and perfect response. However, to just be told (and I have talked to several DVC reps at this point) that my choice is to "lose the points or dump them in RCI and hope you can use them" is not an acceptable response to shareholders. And to add to that, I must make the decision immediately or the decision will be made for me and the points will be lost. DVC members are great planners. But to be forced to make an immediate decision while quarantined, working full-time, homeschooling my children and generally trying to keep things afloat is just unreasonable. I am upset about losing the points (and the money these points represent) but more upset to see a company I have defended for years making such poor decisions.
     

    RoseGold

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Jan 21, 2020
    However, to just be told (and I have talked to several DVC reps at this point) that my choice is to "lose the points or dump them in RCI and hope you can use them" is not an acceptable response to shareholders.
    You're not a shareholder. You're an owner, like me. If Hilton Head got destroyed in a hurricane, you might lose your points AND have to pay a bunch of money. That's the risk we signed up for. We agreed to own this building together and our supreme leaders have made this decision that we authorized.

    Do I think Disney could throw some Pop Century stays at some people? Sure. And I think they would have if this were a couple weeks. But there's no good answer for a closure this long at hotels operating at 95% capacity every single night.
     

    dismedvc

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Oct 10, 2008
    I am sorry but I think all owners should feel outraged. I understand the POS documents perfectly well. However, this is not a typical situation effecting a single company. I stand to lose 200 points for a Aulani vacation using a combination of banked and current UY points. That is the result of very good planning on our part initially - banking points in 2018 to 2019UY so they would be available for a trip of a lifetime in Hawaii this Spring. No one could predict covid-19, nor should we expect that DVCM would have an immediate and perfect response. However, to just be told (and I have talked to several DVC reps at this point) that my choice is to "lose the points or dump them in RCI and hope you can use them" is not an acceptable response to shareholders. And to add to that, I must make the decision immediately or the decision will be made for me and the points will be lost. DVC members are great planners. But to be forced to make an immediate decision while quarantined, working full-time, homeschooling my children and generally trying to keep things afloat is just unreasonable. I am upset about losing the points (and the money these points represent) but more upset to see a company I have defended for years making such poor decisions.
    Why do you feel you have to "make the decision immediately"? The RCI deadline is 45 days before the points expire to be unrestricted in RCI. That makes the next decision date June 16th (or 17th) for August UYs and later decision dates for later UYs.

    I am hoping DVC decides to extend the expiration for 2018 banked points for Aug, Sept, and Oct UYs until at least 11/31/20 (the same expiration date 2018 banked points for June UYs now expire after they were extended.) Since we have an Aug UY I hope they announce a decision before June 16th.

    ETA: The banking deadline (assuming no late banking is allowed in the future) is today for Sept UY and the end of next month for Oct UY.
    Not sure what your UY is.
     
    Last edited:

    emelle24

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    Aug 29, 2012
    You're not a shareholder. You're an owner, like me. If Hilton Head got destroyed in a hurricane, you might lose your points AND have to pay a bunch of money. That's the risk we signed up for. We agreed to own this building together and our supreme leaders have made this decision that we authorized.

    Do I think Disney could throw some Pop Century stays at some people? Sure. And I think they would have if this were a couple weeks. But there's no good answer for a closure this long at hotels operating at 95% capacity every single night.
    Sorry - I used shareholder because I am also a Disney shareholder. I should have been clear and stated DVC owner.
     

    emelle24

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    Aug 29, 2012
    Why do you feel you have to "make the decision immediately"? The RCI deadline is 45 days before the points expire to be unrestricted in RCI. That makes the next decision date June 16th (or 17th) for August UYs and later decision dates for later UYs.

    I am hoping DVC decides to extend the expiration for 2018 banked points for Aug, Sept, and Oct UYs until at least 11/31/20 (the same expiration date 2018 banked points for June UYs now expire after they were extended.) Since we have an Aug UY I hope they announce a decision before June 16th.
     

    mentos

    Minty fresh happy haunts
    Joined
    Aug 19, 2017
    The difference between this situation and the ones your suggesting is that this is not a Business and Customer transaction. When it comes to DVC, we are not the customer. We own the property. We are the ones who shut it down. We are the ones who created the overflow of points. We are the ones who created the problem (due to outside forces). DVCM is just hired help. We hired them to put rules in place and manage the resorts and system so that we don't have to do it ourselves. Why are you asking your hired help to pull out of their pockets to help you because you suffered a loss? Just because they have more money than you?
    QFT, there's this pervasive cognitive dissonance in some of the posts that I'm reading throughout these posts.

    As owners we cannot oscillate between the partaking in the perks of ownership (like how we used to write off some of our dues as property taxes) and asking to be treated as a cash paying renter when the going gets rough.

    Disney is a big corporation, yes... but we own the properties, not Disney.
     

    Sandisw

    Moderator
    Moderator
    Joined
    Nov 15, 2008
    I am sorry but I think all owners should feel outraged. I understand the POS documents perfectly well. However, this is not a typical situation effecting a single company. I stand to lose 200 points for a Aulani vacation using a combination of banked and current UY points. That is the result of very good planning on our part initially - banking points in 2018 to 2019UY so they would be available for a trip of a lifetime in Hawaii this Spring. No one could predict covid-19, nor should we expect that DVCM would have an immediate and perfect response. However, to just be told (and I have talked to several DVC reps at this point) that my choice is to "lose the points or dump them in RCI and hope you can use them" is not an acceptable response to shareholders. And to add to that, I must make the decision immediately or the decision will be made for me and the points will be lost. DVC members are great planners. But to be forced to make an immediate decision while quarantined, working full-time, homeschooling my children and generally trying to keep things afloat is just unreasonable. I am upset about losing the points (and the money these points represent) but more upset to see a company I have defended for years making such poor decisions.
    I am sorry you are at risk of losing points. Pandemic aside, they still have to follow a path that ensure the sustainability of the system moving forward,

    Just because things happened like this, doesn’t mean that rules of the POS can be ignored,

    And, it sounds like you have until Oct 1st to use them. As long as the resorts are open, then there really is no reason to extend them because they are providing you with time to reschedule,

    Now, if the resorts don’t open up by the fall, then I am sure you will be given the additional 6 months that April and June were given because the points expired during the closure.

    No matter what they do it will hit different people in different ways and there is no way to provide Every owner with a situation that works just for them,
     

    dsnymnkyuncle

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Apr 4, 2020
    "1. As an owner, you are asking essentially your "employee" (DVCM) to compensate you for your loss by them giving you their points.

    2. Disney owns 2% of the points. We are looking at probably 25+% of inventory gone. Disney's share is simply not big enough. "

    As an owner I control myself and make my own decisions. I can make smart decisions or stupid ones. I can make them angry or rational. I don't have any duty to anyone else. DVCM is not their own owner and to the extent they are an owner and have points they are then "an owner' and an owner with conflicts but the power to decide. they are a fully owned sub, and yet they are bound by fiduciary duty to the other owners in major decisions. Is this a major decision?
     

    dismedvc

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Oct 10, 2008
    So far? We have lost nothing. As we hit DVC "break even" long ago? No usable points - no payment. Take the contract back. In reality, it would cost us ZERO.
    That is an interesting perspective. However, what do you mean by "No usable points - no payment" I believe you are required to make the annual payment for your maintenance fees regardless of whether you can use your points. Also What do you mean when you say "Take the contract back". I think it is yours until your sell it.

    I do not expect a reply since you said in your disclaimer " I choose to not reply to any quotes, PMs, or comments, as I have personally found this action to be counterproductive." Since this forum is not a legal contract, I do not know why you felt it necessary to add that disclaimer.

    However, given that disclaimer, I wonder why you post on these boards.
    Note: that is not a personal attack, I just think the back and forth on these boards is what provides value, so I think it would be beneficial if you would consider occasionally replying, rather than choosing not to reply to any quotes or comments. (Not replying to PMs I understand)

    Further note: the following quote from your disclaimer also applies to my post above "post may be removed by a Moderator at any time as specified by Board Rules, with my full permission and cooperation." Although I think that is automatically covered by the Board Rules. The moderators do not need my, (or your) permission and cooperation to remove a post as specified by the board rules.:stir:
     

    dsnymnkyuncle

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Apr 4, 2020
    IMO which is a opinion he means that he purchased DVC a while ago and with usage and time he has gained saving that are higher than his costs such that if the points were not usable he would still be ahead.

    This can be true in many senses whether or not you include any money from 'cashing out' and leaving DVC.

    That is an interesting perspective. However, what do you mean by "No usable points - no payment" I believe you are required to make the annual payment for your maintenance fees regardless of whether you can use your points. Also What do you mean when you say "Take the contract back". I think it is yours until your sell it.

    I do not expect a reply since you said in your disclaimer " I choose to not reply to any quotes, PMs, or comments, as I have personally found this action to be counterproductive." Since this forum is not a legal contract, I do not know why you felt it necessary to add that disclaimer.

    However, given that disclaimer, I wonder why you post on these boards.
    Note: that is not a personal attack, I just think the back and forth on these boards is what provides value, so I think it would be beneficial if you would consider occasionally replying, rather than choosing not to reply to any quotes or comments. (Not replying to PMs I understand)

    Further note: the following quote from your disclaimer also applies to my post above "post may be removed by a Moderator at any time as specified by Board Rules, with my full permission and cooperation." Although I think that is automatically covered by the Board Rules. The moderators do not need my, (or your) permission and cooperation to remove a post as specified by the board rules.:stir:
     

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