I feel like a fraud using accomodations

[cobright]

Your job is really cool. I am a science person, and my DD16 is currently taking college level computer science courses so hearing about this stuff is always neat!

Thank you. I ended up with a much much more technical job than I ever intended. I have a Masters degree in International Relations and Global Trade. Then before I could find a job in my field I created a large bronze architectural sculpture for a developer friend and ended up with a slew of commissions. Work as an artist generally ended up with me 'working' 4 months, then taking 8 months off. That left me time to for an old friend starting treatment for pancreatic cancer that was not expected to work. Disney is her safe space too so we started going often as possible. Right away her treatment wrecked her mobility and the scooter her insurance put her in was garbage. I picked up a 2nd hand Jazzy (usually a sad story comes with a 2nd hand wheelchair ... oof) and started tinkering.

The computer science came later. I just figured, we have the technology to build a $500 toy drone that can fly itself from one point to another, while avoiding obstacles and people, and then land on a moving platform; but at least a dozen times a year I hear someone say they don't rent an ECV at WDW (or worse, get one for everyday use) because they are afraid they'll wreck it or clip someone.

So I had to learn some programming. In the last 2 years the hardware optimized for AI, Computer Vision, and Machine Learning tech has exploded. Like the first step the control system does is look around and identify all the things around it. It does this mainly so it can decide which things it sees are stationary and which are moving, and of the moving objects it wants to know what they are because certain types of moving objects move in particular ways. My favorite demonstration video for this step used to be this clip from the movie Skyfall...

But I just found one I like better, a few years back a woman published a video of her walking through NYC to show the level of catcalling she received...

The cool part of this step is that this software, YOLO, is running in real-time, taking the video and identifying and classifying dozens of independent elements nearly instantly. The system I have running on Aisling's powerchair is able to do this level of video processing for 8 high-def cameras simultaneously. The computer board, an Nvidea Jetson Nano, is only $100 and is the size of a pack of smokes (whatever those things are).

The computer then analyzes subsequent frames and determines the direction and speed of everything and then, based on its past experiences observing each type of object, it predicts where that object will be relative her chair for the next few seconds. This is where the eye-contact determination I mentioned before comes in. The computer knows that a person who actually looks at and sees my friend in her wheelchair is less likely to abruptly turn and walk right in front of her. I wrote the code to check for eye-contact into the control software, meaning I cut and pasted it from a library where it was designed for digital cameras so they won't take a photo unless everyone's eyes are open. But that's all I did. Once the program had that bit of data assigned to people-objects it learned over the course of a few thousand hours that those people who made eye-contact behaved differently, and it refined the way it predicted their movement to reflect that.

I'll stop myself now because I really am just running on. In my defense, the subject is pretty fun to consider, really it's the stuff of sci-fi from 10 years ago. And it really is a shame that mobility applications seem to be the last thing on industry minds when this tech is developed.

I love this stuff even if it is almost certainly how the robot uprising begins.

 

[Betty Rohrer]

Oh wow, I have never had anyone say a word to me about using that stall. Disney restrooms usually have several of them in the bathrooms that I don't consider it a big deal. Plus an empty stall should be used, especially with line out the door. The place that I work only has 2 stalls, 1 of them wheelchair accessible, as required by law. If non handicapped people never used it, then it would go years waiting for someone in a wheelchair to use it. We just don't get many people in wheelchairs come in. It is silly to not use an empty stall "just in case" someone comes up in a chair that needs it. Most people are in and out in under a minute.

not saying it shouldn't be used but I have been questioned and told a number of times usually by a mother with small kids that I as a single person shouldn't be tying up that stall even walking out with a cane

 

[Lilsia]

not saying it shouldn't be used but I have been questioned and told a number of times usually by a mother with small kids that I as a single person shouldn't be tying up that stall even walking out with a cane

Wow, that is horrible. Maybe I have a resting witch face, but nobody says a word to me. I hope that you stand up for yourself and tell them to bugger off.

 

[Betty Rohrer]

Wow, that is horrible. Maybe I have a resting witch face, but nobody says a word to me. I hope that you stand up for yourself and tell them to bugger off.

I have what I think is even better I just tell the truth and say next time I will bring my husband with me to help me up. usually get a sorry and push by me then

 

[mamabunny]

Same. On most days I can use a regular stall, but boy are some of them a tight fit!

And airplane toilets are almost out of the question...

 

[bopper]

Here are top 5 Reasons that people think they shouldn't get an ECV when they should.

I can't drive one. Go to your local Costco/Walmart/Target or other large store. They probably have an electric cart type thing that you could use while shopping. Try it out. I bet you can drive it.

People might think I don't really need it because I can walk. Are these people going to share the pain with you at the end of the day? Do you care what they think? Save your walking energy between rides and use it for lines or getting on the rides. Enjoy your family and your vacation.

It will slow my family down. No, actually it will speed your family up. No more rests because mom is tired. No more going back to the hotel because grandpa is in pain. No more cranky mommy because she tried to walk miles and miles in Disney instead of renting an ECV. You are completely mobile on your own (nobody pushing you in a wheelchair). What's the slow down here?

It's expensive. Um, how much are you spending on this vacation? Don't you want to enjoy it? If money is that tight, take a day off of your trip and spend that money on the ECV so you can enjoy it!

I don't want my kids/family to think I am disabled. You are either temporarily or permanently disabled in some way if you are even asking about this issue...once again, why not make it a better vacation by saving yourself from pain? Nobody is saying you have to confine yourself to a wheelchair permanently or you should not stop trying to get better. If somebody told you to go walk 4 miles, you would think they are crazy. But you are paying for the privilege when you go to Disney to do just that...why not use an ECV to make your family's vacation better?

 

[Allison Joy]

Okay. Despite how many times many people on this board have already read this.... I think it's time to share my Disney story again. The regulars here claim they don't tire of me posting it, though I doubt that at times.

I'm now 36, and took my first Disney trip summer of 2016, when I was 33. At the age of 29, I had a hip replacement, due to hip dysplasia and subsequent surgery at age 9. My entire life, I've had some other minor (to me) physical limitations. I always like to think they are not obvious to others, but I think they are more obvious than I realize, because, despite being and looking young, I am nearly always offered a seat on a full bus/light rail, whether at Disney or the occasional times I take public transportation in my city. That's the intro, and here's my Disney story.

On our week long trip, the last day in the parks (Magic Kingdom) my friends rented a wheel chair for me. I'll be honest, I was kind of upset. I didn't feel I "needed" it, because, honestly, I can do longer distances. I'm just slow. Like... really slow, especially be the end of the day. I felt like I was taking advantage of something I shouldn't, and even hesitated sharing my story here at first, for fear that other people would also think I was taking advantage of things. Looking back, I'm glad they did rent the wheelchair for me, because the next day was departure day, and I'm honestly not sure I would have navigated nearly as well at the airport the next day with my luggage (carry on) if I hadn't had that "rest" day the last day in the parks. (That being said, I'd still like to "conquer" Magic Kingdom without a wheelchair one day.)

One special thing that happened to me is I saw a young girl with a pink cast on her leg who was also in a wheelchair. She looked pretty sad to have to use the wheelchair. But the moment she saw me, she got this HUGE smile on her face and waved at me. I think I was probably the first younger looking person she saw in a wheelchair, and it made her feel not quite so alone. So... all that to say that not only are there definite advantages to renting a scooter/wheelchair, but there may also be some hidden magic pixie dust in that scooter!

I'd also love to share my full story, if you would like.

 

[mamabunny]

I love this stuff even if it is almost certainly how the robot uprising begins.

That's why I always say "Please" and "Thank you" to Siri - I want her and all her buddies to know *I* am a friend...

 

[tinkerbelletreasure]

Don’t let worrying about what other people think affect your trip. And using a wheelchair is perfectly acceptable in your situation. I too have bought a second hand wheelchair that I only use at Disney. I broke my ankle badly 11 years ago, and in my day to day life, it rarely bothers me, but the sheer amount of walking involved in Disney causes it to swell and then I have to take very frequent breaks, I’m usually in a lot of pain, and I have to elevate and ice my ankle every night in order to get the swelling down enough for the next day and then it takes about a week of being home before my ankle returns to it’s normal size and pain level. I may not be permanently disabled, but I am definitely temporarily disabled while at Disney World. I fought against using a chair a lot longer than I should of, and I wish I could get that time back that I spent in so much pain unable to fully enjoy the magic and trying not to let my kids down. I was really more worried what my kids would say when I started using a chair at Disney, but they are all much happier to be able to move through the parks quicker and have me in a better mood. And when someone gets tired, I can get up and walk a while and let them take a break.

 

[bobbiwoz]

And airplane toilets are almost out of the question...

And they have the sign for baby care too! Amazing!

 

[Miffy]

Well, first of all, it doesn't matter what other people think. Next, to any caring, conscious person, it's clear that just because someone doesn't appear to have a disability doesn't mean they don't.

In short: If you get bad vibes from someone, just know that it's their problem. Not yours. Never ever yours. And most people will not notice at all, not care, or be understanding. So you're good. And enjoy your trip!

 

[cobright]

That's why I always say "Please" and "Thank you" to Siri - I want her and all her buddies to know *I* am a friend...

Indeed. Alexa will remember me as one of the good ones.

 

[krd315]

One trip we had an ecv and 2 manual wheelchairs in our party of 6. My elderly mom in wc, my 35 y/o dtr on ecv for asthma and circulation isdues (not visable) and my 12 y/o granddaughter broke her foot on our 2nd day. The only time anyone rolled eyes or any comments was at the bus stops. But what people didn't see was that we waited for the next bus several times. My granddaughter was able to transfer so we were able to go on the same bus. Yes we were 1st on but also last off. We still had a great trip. I have had 2 knee replacements and use handicap stall when available. It's higher and easier especially when my knees are tired. Don't worry about anyone else. Go and have fun!

 

[kaytieeldr]

I can't drive one. Go to your local Costco/Walmart/Target or other large store. They probably have an electric cart type thing that you could use while shopping. Try it out. I bet you can drive it.

I will, though, once again request: please first make sure the store you choose has enough "mart carts" to accommodate. My local Target and Walmart have two each. That's it. I have been in Walmart when there was a (seated) queue waiting for either tk be returned. Go when itsw slow.

 

[DisneyOma]

My current occupation is developing self-driving elements for a power-wheelchair platform. I have thousands of hours of video taken from the perspective of my friends powerchair that get analyzed and used to develop AI models for things like obstacle avoidance. One cool thing I started playing with lets the computer identify when someone is making eye-contact with the wheelchair (essentially, whenever someone is looking right at the chair for more than a fleeting moment, including tracking the chair if it is in motion) and it's not just a perception thing, people just do not look at wheelchairs. I can object detect and motion track over 200 moving people in a crowd and if I feed 10 minutes of that video and motion data into my computer at home and give it a couple hours I can show what every person on that crowded sidewalk is looking at at any moment. People very predictably look at other walking people, but they, just as predictably, do not look at wheelchairs and ECVs.

An exception really is Disney Cast Members. In the evening after my friend and I had a particularly fun MnG with Pocahontas I pulled the data for that time and her chair was getting eye-contact like crazy while in line. It was Pocahontas' 2 handlers during a 15 minute break surreptitiously scouting the line then ducking backstage. When they returned with the princess, Pocahontas stopped right at us in line and gave her a compliment. It was a great meet n greet, but it was even cooler in retrospect to discover how little some of those moments are left to chance.

When you talk about "eye contact" with the wheelchair, are you talking about the person in the chair or the chair itself? Also, are you taking into account that generations of people have been taught not to stare at the person in a wheelchair? So perhaps that lack of "eye contact" on a wheelchair is from what we were told was good manners?

 

[ShazzySteph]

I have rheumatoid arthritis with good and bad days. I use the handicap bathrooms because the toilets are higher up off the ground, and easier to get up from. The only way I can do the parks now is to rent an ECV. It has really been a game changer. I haven't seen anyone give me looks for using it. I only heard one person be a bit snarky when waiting for a bus. ECVs go on first. It was later in the day and everyone was tired. I gave that a pass. Do what you need to do for you.

The last time we went to Disney World, my mom had just been diagnosed with cancer and while in good spirits was more tired than usual. That, and the fact that she's in her 70's and it was July in Orlando, meant that she used a wheelchair for the trip. Honestly, it was the best choice we've ever made. It allowed her to enjoy the parks and our time together far more than had she been struggling to walk.

I share this story specifically to you because she usually uses a similar username to you and is my Musicmom

 

[cobright]

When you talk about "eye contact" with the wheelchair, are you talking about the person in the chair or the chair itself? Also, are you taking into account that generations of people have been taught not to stare at the person in a wheelchair? So perhaps that lack of "eye contact" on a wheelchair is from what we were told was good manners?

With regards to whether I'm talking about adjudicating eye-contact with the chair vs person in the chair, from a computer vision (CV) perspective it's 6 of one half dozen of the other. Anything that measures one is going to measure the other. But actually this holds true even when the mobility-assisted person has their back turned. Most people simply do not spend as much time looking at people in wheelchairs as they do looking at able bodied people.

"Good manners" is an interesting spin on this and I've heard it before. Except it is never good manners to treat someone differently than others. Especially when doing so makes you more likely to walk into them.

No, I'm talking about something that is a deeply subconscious/unconscious behavior. Human brains light up inside when they encounter familiar patterns, there is a whole new(ish) science on this using FMRS MRI brain scanning. I suspect that whatever the brain looks like when most people sees an able bodied person, it looks very different when it sees a disabled person in a wheelchair or ECV. It just has to. And the deepest parts of our behavior, the ones that react and engage without thinking will have to treat someone in a chair as different as well.

This isn't about a person's manners. This is more like the phenomena motorcyclists will tell you is commonplace where someone in a car will make eye contact, nod, smile, even wave at them and the next moment drive straight at them as if they weren't there. I'm not accusing humanity of being rude. But stories, here and anywhere mobility challenged people chat, abound of all sorts of people simply stepping into, in front of, even walking bodily over a mobility assisted person, often without any warning at all. And often, the person who makes the misstep is the one most shocked.

From my perspective, it's something to be studied because I would like to build a mobility system that enjoys the same careless ease of motion that I enjoy as an able bodied walking person. On the other hand, when I hear someone worry about what other people will think when they see them in a wheelchair or ECV, it's a perverse sort of comfort to say that they will hardly see you at all.

 

[Lilsia]

With regards to whether I'm talking about adjudicating eye-contact with the chair vs person in the chair, from a computer vision (CV) perspective it's 6 of one half dozen of the other. Anything that measures one is going to measure the other. But actually this holds true even when the mobility-assisted person has their back turned. Most people simply do not spend as much time looking at people in wheelchairs as they do looking at able bodied people.

"Good manners" is an interesting spin on this and I've heard it before. Except it is never good manners to treat someone differently than others. Especially when doing so makes you more likely to walk into them.

No, I'm talking about something that is a deeply subconscious/unconscious behavior. Human brains light up inside when they encounter familiar patterns, there is a whole new(ish) science on this using FMRS MRI brain scanning. I suspect that whatever the brain looks like when most people sees an able bodied person, it looks very different when it sees a disabled person in a wheelchair or ECV. It just has to. And the deepest parts of our behavior, the ones that react and engage without thinking will have to treat someone in a chair as different as well.

This isn't about a person's manners. This is more like the phenomena motorcyclists will tell you is commonplace where someone in a car will make eye contact, nod, smile, even wave at them and the next moment drive straight at them as if they weren't there. I'm not accusing humanity of being rude. But stories, here and anywhere mobility challenged people chat, abound of all sorts of people simply stepping into, in front of, even walking bodily over a mobility assisted person, often without any warning at all. And often, the person who makes the misstep is the one most shocked.

From my perspective, it's something to be studied because I would like to build a mobility system that enjoys the same careless ease of motion that I enjoy as an able bodied walking person. On the other hand, when I hear someone worry about what other people will think when they see them in a wheelchair or ECV, it's a perverse sort of comfort to say that they will hardly see you at all.

To be fair, people run into strollers, stationary chairs, children, and even other people. It is more a case of not paying attention then subconsciously "not seeing" a person in a mobility device. I think this is a situation where someone is going to feel "offended" about something. If someone is looking at another person in a wheelchair, then you get the "why are they looking at me", and now conversely, you are saying that we need to look at them more. If I am talking to someone, in a chair or not, I look at them. Otherwise, I don't really pay attention to others other then to try not to run into someone. Some people just live in their own little bubble and are clueless to what is going on around them.

 

[cobright]

To be fair, people run into strollers, stationary chairs, children, and even other people. It is more a case of not paying attention then subconsciously "not seeing" a person in a mobility device.

I really think it's a little of both. I can't say directly because I haven't been measuring the degree people pay attention to strollers, but to one extent or another strollers are usually attached to a standing person ... so, there's that.

If I am talking to someone, in a chair or not, I look at them. Otherwise, I don't really pay attention to others other then to try not to run into someone. Some people just live in their own little bubble and are clueless to what is going on around them.

This is the funny part. Most of what you do to avoid running into people on the sidewalk is subconscious/unconscious. Most human beings, walking down a crowded sidewalk (WDW is a great test ground for this) can close their eyes and count slowly to three without stopping or bumping into anyone or anything, even when this requires changes in their direction or speed. A very small part of this is because the rest of the 'herd' will 'accommodate' you to some degree, but mostly it is because we subconsciously track and predict the movement of other people around us.

If you had to run every decision about your movements through the sort of cognizance involved in actually thinking about people it would take forever just to get from one end of the day to the next.

There is a wealth of behavioral science dealing with interaction with the disabled, but I think anyone who has accompanied a mobility assisted person has experienced the phenomenon of being talked to instead of the disabled person. I have been asked what my friend would like for dinner, by the waiter of a restaurant.This, after she had already spoken to the waiter about some of the menu choices. Likewise, the time it takes someone in a wheelchair to get service is measurably reduced by elevating the person to a height where they are eye level with others. That's part of what Dean Kamen got right with his ridiculous iBot powerchair design.

 

[SonyaX]

Trip Report – So I did go with my new second hand wheelchair. It made things easier for me but so much worse for my kids. I got an XL wheelchair that can accommodate 440 lbs (in part so my husband could use it as well and he’s big big guy). Turns out, that is really hard to push. I’m around 200lbs, so I might look for a lighter one next time. I didn’t use it every day. Somedays I just used a brace support, and cane.
You guys were right though – no one cared. The character meet and greets were incredibly nice about things. I even had some nice people push me once when my wheelchair got stuck in the Hagrid line and my kids couldn’t get me out.
The only exception was the disability services folks at guest services. I wanted to get a DAS for cane/brace days. Sure I can usually walk, but standing long term not so much. I read ahead, I knew you would still have to wait the allotted time and come back later. I thought a DAS would make it easier for me to not use a wheelchair during my better times. I figured I would walk as much as I could, and sit during a ride-wait. I went to guest services and explained this and they said “All of our queues are designed to be wheelchair friendly, so if you have mobility issues, get a wheel chair.” I said I want to walk when I can, and I don’t want to have to pay for a wheelchair. They repeated that they do not do DAS for mobility issues. I asked if the wheelchair was going to be complimentary. They said no. I tried to explain that I wanted to be able to be mobile, but that I simply couldn’t stand long-term in a line. I explained the whole situation, and they still said “No, you’re not allowed to get a DAS for mobility issues.”

I want to point out that I did have my cane with me, but this was at the very start of my day, when I still have plenty of energy. So maybe I didn’t “look disabled”, but it really ticked me off. I was treated like I was scamming them, just so I could sit down instead of stand in line. What in the world do they give out DAS for? Is it PTSD-only? That part was pretty frustrating. Still, I did have a wheelchair, but since it was the extra wide one, it did not in fact fit in all of the queues. I got stuck on a few doorways and barely grazed through other entrances.

I did have a great time. I *am* glad I used a wheelchair. Everyone but disability services either ignored me or was considerate. And I didn’t feel like a lazy fatso who can’t even pick her butt out of a chair, which I admit is some bad mouthing I mentally give myself sometimes. I wish I knew how to stop my mental self-harming.

I would go again in a wheelchair, I would just get something more lightweight, and I would avoid Disability Access Services. Thank you everyone for your encouragement, and data-backed information.