River Journey AA Question

[rteetz]

That's the thing. It's just "ok". There's no story to it. There's no point. You just get in a tiny boat and go. Then, all of a sudden, there's a state of the art Na'vi animatronic that kind just waves around and sings gibberish. Again, no reasoning behind why she's there and where everyone is going and then BOOM! ride over. No climax. This was not a well thought out attraction.

I actually think there is a story. If you look all of the animals and Navi people are being drawn in to something. We don't know what that something is until the end. They are being drawn to the Shaman of song who gracefully brings the beings together. The reasoning for her being there is being the Shaman of song. She brings everyone together after years of destruction and war.

 

[Madonna3]

I actually think there is a story. If you look all of the animals and Navi people are being drawn in to something. We don't know what that something is until the end. They are being drawn to the Shaman of song who gracefully brings the beings together. The reasoning for her being there is being the Shaman of song. She brings everyone together after years of destruction and war.

Prove that. Is that the official story?

Point is, you get on a boat and observe some pretty impressive visual displays and then you're thrown off kinda going, "hmm?" And then without that Shaman - what's the point?

 

[mikepizzo]

I actually think there is a story. If you look all of the animals and Navi people are being drawn in to something. We don't know what that something is until the end. They are being drawn to the Shaman of song who gracefully brings the beings together. The reasoning for her being there is being the Shaman of song. She brings everyone together after years of destruction and war.

Just curious, from a visual perspective, how did you get that she was bringing people together after years of destruction and war?

Without mentioning any of the details outside of the queue or ride itself? Why is she bringing people together? Is this a ceremony of sorts? If so, what does the ceremony accomplish?

It seems to be the details that are lacking.

With pirates there may not be an over arching story (sans the Johnny Depp stuff), but each "room" tells it's own story. That's a ride that doesn't necessarily need a "why is this happeneing", because the "what is happening" is so strong.

 

[rteetz]

Just curious, from a visual perspective, how did you get that she was bringing people together after years of destruction and war?

Without mentioning any of the details outside of the queue or ride itself? Why is she bringing people together? Is this a ceremony of sorts? If so, what does the ceremony accomplish?

It seems to be the details that are lacking.

With pirates there may not be an over arching story (sans the Johnny Depp stuff), but each "room" tells it's own story. That's a ride that doesn't necessarily need a "why is this happeneing", because the "what is happening" is so strong.

Well I'm using outside facts in this. Obviously the general guest isn't going to know it. The land is set well after the final sequel. The first movie starts out with humans taking over the land for mining. There is supposed to be more war and destruction in the sequels. The land shows pieces of that. The abandon mess hall turned into dining. Moss growing on old walls built by the humans, old machinery being used as props of the Navi.

Honestly I don't know the specific reason for bringing the people together but I've heard several times the animals and Navi are being drawn to the Shaman of Song. My guess is the ceremony is a sense of unity. I understand the ride is lacking but overall I find it to be incredibly immersive in detail. Because the ride isn't based on the movie it might be hard to understand the story until the sequels come out (if they ever do). James Cameron has said there are things in the land that have to do directly with the sequels.

 

[circus4u]

Prove that. Is that the official story?

Point is, you get on a boat and observe some pretty impressive visual displays and then you're thrown off kinda going, "hmm?" And then without that Shaman - what's the point?

When we first rode, it reminded me of an extended version of the beginning of the Mexico boat ride. I kept waiting for something to show up, pretty but doubt we would ever stand in line for it in the future.

 

[mikepizzo]

Well I'm using outside facts in this. Obviously the general guest isn't going to know it. The land is set well after the final sequel. The first movie starts out with humans taking over the land for mining. There is supposed to be more war and destruction in the sequels. The land shows pieces of that. The abandon mess hall turned into dining. Moss growing on old walls built by the humans, old machinery being used as props of the Navi.

Honestly I don't know the specific reason for bringing the people together but I've heard several times the animals and Navi are being drawn to the Shaman of Song. My guess is the ceremony is a sense of unity. I understand the ride is lacking but overall I find it to be incredibly immersive in detail. Because the ride isn't based on the movie it might be hard to understand the story until the sequels come out (if they ever do). James Cameron has said there are things in the land that have to do directly with the sequels.

Right, I'm not disputing that the land itself has it's fair share of detail. I'm speaking about the ride and the ride alone. I'm not saying there aren't any other rides on Disney property that lack a proper story. The story for Soarin' is that you're hang gliding around the world. No real story there. I think the reason why that ride has never gotten the criticism that River Journey is getting is because it's actually an exciting ride. Your body is physically experiencing something greater than with River Journey. If you're going to have a "boring" (i.e. a ride that doesn't jostle you around) you have to have something compelling enough to ride it, which is usually where the story takes over (e.g. Pirates). I personally don't think the Shaman is compelling enough on it's own to merit a re-ride. Some do, and that's totally fine. But then you run into predicaments like this, where the Shaman isn't working and people feel a bit cheated because the biggest selling point of waiting 60+ minutes isn't even operational.

 

[rteetz]

Right, I'm not disputing that the land itself has it's fair share of detail. I'm speaking about the ride and the ride alone. I'm not saying there aren't any other rides on Disney property that lack a proper story. The story for Soarin' is that you're hang gliding around the world. No real story there. I think the reason why that ride has never gotten the criticism that River Journey is getting is because it's actually an exciting ride. Your body is physically experiencing something greater than with River Journey. If you're going to have a "boring" (i.e. a ride that doesn't jostle you around) you have to have something compelling enough to ride it, which is usually where the story takes over (e.g. Pirates). I personally don't think the Shaman is compelling enough on it's own to merit a re-ride. Some do, and that's totally fine. But then you run into predicaments like this, where the Shaman isn't working and people feel a bit cheated because the biggest selling point of waiting 60+ minutes isn't even operational.

After riding FoP I find Soarin more boring but that's for another thread. I do agree there is some lack of story but I think I understand it some better than others because I have been invested in this land from start to finish. I am not huge fan of the movie but I'm a huge fan of the new land and tried to learn everything I could about it. Of course general guests won't do that.

As for the Shaman itself it is unfortunate when it goes down but from the sounds/reports of it, that doesn't happen very often. They have been quick to repair it.

The boat ride went through three iterations. In the first plan for the land it was a raft type ride through the rapids of Pandora. Obviously more excitement in that.

Plan two was a much longer slow boat ride. We don't know if this would have had more AAs though.

Plan three which is what we got was the short one AA boat ride. This is what happens when Imagineering goes over budget.

 

[Redcon1]

Well I'm using outside facts in this. Obviously the general guest isn't going to know it. The land is set well after the final sequel. The first movie starts out with humans taking over the land for mining. There is supposed to be more war and destruction in the sequels. The land shows pieces of that. The abandon mess hall turned into dining. Moss growing on old walls built by the humans, old machinery being used as props of the Navi.

Honestly I don't know the specific reason for bringing the people together but I've heard several times the animals and Navi are being drawn to the Shaman of Song. My guess is the ceremony is a sense of unity. I understand the ride is lacking but overall I find it to be incredibly immersive in detail. Because the ride isn't based on the movie it might be hard to understand the story until the sequels come out (if they ever do). James Cameron has said there are things in the land that have to do directly with the sequels.

Maybe all the animals and Navi are coming to hear the Shaman sing the story of how Peter Quill once visited Pandora.....oh wait, that's the back story for a different attraction, isn't it?

 

[Knux897]

If you're going to have a "boring" (i.e. a ride that doesn't jostle you around) you have to have something compelling enough to ride it, which is usually where the story takes over (e.g. Pirates). I personally don't think the Shaman is compelling enough on it's own to merit a re-ride. Some do, and that's totally fine. But then you run into predicaments like this, where the Shaman isn't working and people feel a bit cheated because the biggest selling point of waiting 60+ minutes isn't even operational.

But I don't think this ride was designed for 60+ minute waits. It only gets those wait times because it's new. A few years down the road, or even next summer, I don't expect wait times to be more than 20 minutes for it, making the content more fitting.

The boat ride went through three iterations. In the first plan for the land it was a raft type ride through the rapids of Pandora. Obviously more excitement in that.

Plan two was a much longer slow boat ride. We don't know if this would have had more AAs though.

Plan three which is what we got was the short one AA boat ride. This is what happens when Imagineering goes over budget.

Is there a website where I can find out more information about the development of the land? I would be interested in reading more. I've heard rumors of a rollercoaster, but I can't find any information. I would like to know more about the original rapids ride as well.

 

[rteetz]

Is there a website where I can find out more information about the development of the land? I would be interested in reading more. I've heard rumors of a rollercoaster, but I can't find any information. I would like to know more about the original rapids ride as well.

There is no official information as Disney would never release such info but Martin Smith on wdwmagic is where a lot of the info came from. There are also the early leaked Pandora blueprints which show a longer boat ride.

 

[tobikaye]

The story for Soarin' is that you're hang gliding around the world. No real story there. I think the reason why that ride has never gotten the criticism that River Journey is getting is because it's actually an exciting ride.

Actually, the first time I rode Soarin' I could not figure out what the excitement was about or why it had such long lines. I was bored and ready for it to end about 2 minutes before it actually did. The second time I road, after they switched to the new show, I liked it slightly better. This time, I at least liked it enough that I will not just pass it by every time. If the wait is 20 minutes or less, or if I can get a last minute FP, I might consider doing it again. Still not something I would go out of my way to do.

 

[jknezek]

Plan three which is what we got was the short one AA boat ride. This is what happens when Imagineering goes over budget.

This is the part that drives me nuts about Disney lately. I wonder if they surveyed their guests, would they rather they spend less time on the land, and more on the ride, or what they seem to be doing which is going overboard on the themes and shorting the rides? I'm willing to bet that overwhelmingly people would want more and better rides. You really come to WDW to ride the rides and see the shows, not to sightsee the lands. But it seems like Disney is going the opposite direction.

 

[dlavender]

This is the part that drives me nuts about Disney lately. I wonder if they surveyed their guests, would they rather they spend less time on the land, and more on the ride, or what they seem to be doing which is going overboard on the themes and shorting the rides? I'm willing to bet that overwhelmingly people would want more and better rides. You really come to WDW to ride the rides and see the shows, not to sightsee the lands. But it seems like Disney is going the opposite direction.

I second that.

They are getting lost in the "immersion" aspect.

I know that word comes up a lot in HP reviews at IOA. I don't know if the execs are putting too much weight on that.

Immersion is great and all, but let's get some more immersive rides vs lands.

I'm sure an immersive land has a better return - less labor/maint./etc.... but are people really coming for that?

It's my biggest fear for SWL. Too much weight on the land/not enough on the rides.

 

[circus4u]

I'm willing to bet that overwhelmingly people would want more and better rides. You really come to WDW to ride the rides and see the shows, not to sightsee the lands. But it seems like Disney is going the opposite direction.

Probably true for most people, but I have to include myself in the latter group. We probably average 3 rides per day and spend the rest of our day "sight seeing." I think a lot depends upon the age of the visitor, the older one gets, the more that rides don't mean as much.

 

[rteetz]

I second that.

They are getting lost in the "immersion" aspect.

I know that word comes up a lot in HP reviews at IOA. I don't know if the execs are putting too much weight on that.

Immersion is great and all, but let's get some more immersive rides vs lands.

I'm sure an immersive land has a better return - less labor/maint./etc.... but are people really coming for that?

It's my biggest fear for SWL. Too much weight on the land/not enough on the rides.

From what I've heard the battle attraction in SWL is going to be one of the best Disney has ever done. With the $1 billion price tag I'm optimistic they will do both immersive rides and immersive land.

 

[Redcon1]

Couldn't agree more with jknezek and dlavender. I've previously said theming should be a complement to an attraction and attractions should be the main focus of the lands. Not the other way around. Seems too much lately theming has become the primary objective of the Imagineers instead of making the ride experience as innovative as it can be and to give it more depth.

The River Journey is proof of that: pretty to look at, but outside the AA, to borrow Gertrude Stein's line, "There is no there...there".

 

[mikepizzo]

I second that.

They are getting lost in the "immersion" aspect.

I know that word comes up a lot in HP reviews at IOA. I don't know if the execs are putting too much weight on that.

Immersion is great and all, but let's get some more immersive rides vs lands.

I'm sure an immersive land has a better return - less labor/maint./etc.... but are people really coming for that?

It's my biggest fear for SWL. Too much weight on the land/not enough on the rides.

If Disney wants more immersive lands, they should probably do a better job at training their Cast Members (or maybe even a better job at hiring people who care) in not talking about their personal life, what shifts they want to pick up, and having general theme breaking conversations with their fellow Cast Members on stage.

The amount of times I felt ignored by a Cast Member on my last trip was quite high...and I'm not a hard guy to please.

Also, side note, we saw a custodial Cast Member (who was still in costume) make her way through the crowd of people entering "The Music of Pixar", step over the a rope barrier, and tell the venue loading Cast Member that her friend was sitting down and she wanted to go talk to her. The other Cast Member let her through and the custodial Cast Member took up room on the bench (albeit just a single seat) talking to her friend right up until the concert was about to start. Custodial Cast Member then left, stepping back over the rope barrier that she stepped over previously.

Maybe I'm getting crotchety in my old age, but I feel like if a Cast Member is on the clock on stage, that shouldn't be ok.

 

[ucfknight]

If Disney wants more immersive lands, they should probably do a better job at training their Cast Members (or maybe even a better job at hiring people who care) in not talking about their personal life, what shifts they want to pick up, and having general theme breaking conversations with their fellow Cast Members on stage.

The amount of times I felt ignored by a Cast Member on my last trip was quite high...and I'm not a hard guy to please.

100% agree with this. In my college days back when the years started with 19 instead of 20, I worked as a frontline cast member at Disney for several years. Back then there was much more training as new CMs were onboarded, and there was a much greater emphasis on the rules of what it meant to be "on stage". Managers were constantly reinforcing things such as "no leaning", no personal conversations with other CMs at the expense of guests, getting out and talking to guests when your job allowed it, trying to have your persona and actions be part of the theme of the area where you worked, etc. Part of my time at Disney was spent in retail, and if you weren't actively ringing up a guest's purchase you were fully expected to be out from behind the register and engaging with guests.

Nowadays the training has been cut from what it once was, as has the emphasis on proper behavior. It is now very common to see two cast members talking to each other about after work party plans, dating gossip, etc, while ignoring the guests who are right in front of them. It is no longer shocking to see a couple (or more) cast members leaning up against walls deep in conversation, or leaning on counters with their head in one hand.

Just in the past months I've seen/heard things like:
2 CMs at the queue entrance of an attraction completely in a 'bro' conversation like they were at their frat house, which included some f-bombs and the use of the b word to describe a woman
Had a FP+ return line blocked by a group of 5 managers who were all talking about where they wanted to go out to eat after work, and they looked annoyed when I said "excuse me" to get past them
Taken about 30 seconds to get the attention of 2 cast members behind a register in a shop I was trying to buy something in because they were so busy talking to each other about personal stuff they were in their own world.
Seen 2 cast members working at one of the coffee kiosks that was obviously so non-busy they were bored. They both had their head laying on the counter. I watched them for a good 2 minutes and they stayed in that position the whole time.

You used to see this kind of stuff sometimes at SeaWorld or Busch Gardens, sometimes even Universal, but never at Disney. Times have certainly changed.

 

[SaharanTea]

Couldn't agree more with jknezek and dlavender. I've previously said theming should be a complement to an attraction and attractions should be the main focus of the lands. Not the other way around. Seems too much lately theming has become the primary objective of the Imagineers instead of making the ride experience as innovative as it can be and to give it more depth.

The River Journey is proof of that: pretty to look at, but outside the AA, to borrow Gertrude Stein's line, "There is no there...there".

I've got to disagree with this a bit. I found the River Journey to be very thick with detail. It's definitely shorter than it needs to be, but it has a ton of stuff going on. I wanted it to slow down so I could take it all in. This mix of the smaller screen bits and physical points of interest was pretty awesome. I don't understand anyone saying it isn't detailed. Short, yes.

Now, I would agree with the underlying point. Maybe they could have spent a little less on the land and a little more lengthening that ride.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I actually think there is a story. If you look all of the animals and Navi people are being drawn in to something. We don't know what that something is until the end. They are being drawn to the Shaman of song who gracefully brings the beings together. The reasoning for her being there is being the Shaman of song. She brings everyone together after years of destruction and war.

Prove that. Is that the official story?

Point is, you get on a boat and observe some pretty impressive visual displays and then you're thrown off kinda going, "hmm?" And then without that Shaman - what's the point?

Not sure about the aspect of bringing everyone together specifically related to the years of destruction and war - but I think it is pretty clear she is calling everyone (animals and the Na'vi) and that is why things start out relatively quiet and then it builds with more and more activity as you get into the ride, eventually even seeing the Na'vi traveling to the end point. So to me, that much of the storyline was very clear - but also to me puts even more pressure on that AA as the crux of the attraction so I would be very bummed if the AA was not working