Should reliance on tipping stop?

[Lumpy1106]

So here's a situation - you work at a high end steakhouse....You crush it on a busy night with checks that average 300-500$ a table. You think you are going to get the restaurant to meet that hourly rate that the tipping provides? zero point zero chance

Agreed - I worked in a place like that through college. I was busing tables and the waitresses would share tips with the kitchen and bus staff. The waitresses would frequently end up with a bill, not a check, at the end of the pay period, because there was an assumed I think 8% tip on all of their tables that they had to pay taxes on. Not sure how all of that worked (did they pay tax on the tips I got? I know I didn't), but I do know their tips were at least double that 8% so nobody complained.

 

[sweetpeama]

I

In the short term, yest people will struggle with the optics. But they will adjust. When they realize they don't have to leave a tip and breakfast is costing them the same they will adjust

And the incentive is to keep your job. There aren't a million job openings out there that people are looking at their 17 job offers and taking the one as a server ... that is one they can get. and if it takes offering a few more $ an hour to keep the good ones then successful restaurants will do that

Plus I think most people are ok with some tip for really good service. Just instead of working for $2/hour plus $18/hour in tips, you would work for $15/hour plus $5/tips

All you have to do is drive down the street in the town I live near in MT and even fast food places are paying more than minimium wage. McDonald's raises their pay to $12 an hour and Burger King across the street or Taco Bell next door or Dairy Queen a half mile up the road at least follow suite if not go ok we will put on our sign that we pay $12.50 an hour. Sit down places are not showing the bidding wars but based on what I have heard from those who do that type of work and not just my sister in law are paying $2-5 plus an hour more than what fast food is paying and have been for a while.

 

[dreamit]

I have no issues with the discretionary of tipping waitstaff, room cleaning staff, bell services, and drivers (I’m probably missing a position). I have a BIG problem with companies, including Disney, relying on tipping as part of their compensation package and with turning tipping into an included part of the overall price of the meal, service, etc. A recent occurrence that really bothered me was at the Aulani Laniwai spa. They add on an automatic 20% gratuity. I’d love to know what Disney is doing with that money. I bet they spread it out to compensate what would normally be considered non-tipped positions, allowing Disney to pay a lower wage. I wanted to tip my direct service provider (in this instance masseuse) at least 20%, but I had no idea of the amount of her cut of the required, automatic tip. Plus, it shouldn’t be that in order for the direct service provider to receive 20%, I’m required to pay an overall tip of 30%+.

 

[UKYRob29]

Except if everyone is doing this the optics go away. Businesses can also still market a $4.99 breakfast and include a required 20% upcharge with no extra tipping. You could even show pricing in the menu such as $4.99 ($7).

There are ways around it and to spin it while removing tipping as it stands today. Also how does it work with any other price increase? Eventually people accept it and move on from complaining if its across the board.




I don't know if you have worked in a call center but there is a reason they have high turnover and its because people hate those jobs. So again I ask where are these cushy $15/hr jobs that everyone wants? Any of them that do exist are not going to have much turnover and you are not getting in. There are also many people who swear they will never sit behind a desk or will never work on their feet. People are all different and value different things and have different backgrounds.




Guess what I just crushed my quarter. Sold over $10m in product do you think I am getting a 20% tip on that?

If you are working where its $500/check then you push for higher hourly, salary, health insurance, bonus structure, profit sharing, commission, ect....

Again as I stated some servers are not going to like this and some will make much less money if all they get is an hourly wage. We also need to dial this back because this really all started from Disney the rest of the US is not going to a no tipping system anytime soon if ever.

Uhhh - dude you get sales commission. What are you talking about?

 

[jbehr12]

For those who say that if we did away with tipping resturants would have to raise their prices I say malarky. All you need to do is look at the prices of chain resturants in Montana and compare the price that you would pay for the exact same meal not including tax at that resturant in ID, ND, SD, WY (I haven't been in CO, NM, or TX since the early 2000s and while I have been in UT it was just in the SLC airport so the price we paid to eat at a chain there might have been higher just because airport prices so not sure on those states). It doesn't matter if you go to Applebees, Dennys, Golden Corral, IHOP, Olive Garden or Texas RoadHouse you pay the same price.
If you want to go a bit further out there is only a $1.50 range difference between the highest and the lowest price charged at this chain for their weekday lunch https://www.huhot.com/ (sorry not in all states as they are expanding slowly but if you ever get the chance to go to one their food is awesome and some of the grill operators put on quite a show. At least at the one I go to and they even have a tip jar for the grill workers though they used to have a better one where you voted on different things like which is better downhill or cross country skiing or which of two movies that released around the same time you liked better plus if you tell them you have an allergy they not only clean the grill they block off the area around your food while it is cooking and use a seperate clean spatula on your food no I don't work there though my sister in law started out as a waitress there and is now the front of house daytime weekday manager (they also have a back of house manager and an overall manager working at the same time and yes it is a favorite place to eat we even have our usual tables).
To those who say that people won't tip if it is not expected well according to my sister in law who was raised in WY (she moved to MT because there were more places to work in the town where I live than that town she was living in and met my brother at the resturant they both worked at she as a server and he as a cook-his cooking is now reserved for family) and worked there as a waitress/server and worked in MT as a server as well she actually got higher tips in MT compared to what she was making in WY about the same time period so 1 year difference.

I’m not going to get deep into reasoning why restaurants WILL have to raise prices if tipping goes away, but I will try and explain quickly.

In Ohio, like most states, servers make $4.40-$4.80 an hour and take up the majority of hours we can schedule staff, about 60% of total staff hours are comprised of the lower wage. If that were to shoot up to $9-10 an hour first you’d lose half the work force because that typically cuts a good servers pay straight in half, talented servers can typically make at least $20/hr. You’d have to at least double, if not triple or quadruple in extreme cases, their wages just to keep them around or you’ll see a huge decline in service quality. Remember that diner waitress that never refilled your drink and took forever to drop your check, and didn’t care at all if you left them $1 or $10? You’ll start seeing that everywhere.

On top of that, tripling the wages for 60% of your work staff is going to cut into other areas of the operations and it needs to be made up somewhere, that’s just the reality of running a business. Restaurants are already running on a razor thin profit margin so tripling 60% of wages will have to make prices go up (or back of house wages go stagnant, causing lower quality food) to offset costs. You call it malarkey, restaurants call it turning a profit and staying open.

The only places you could reasonably try to enforce this is New York, California, and any of state where server minimum matches state minimum. But with a vast number of chains being country wide, being able to do that in only 2/50 states just doesn’t make sense. But even with that you’d still be drastically reducing the pay of talented servers and would lose a very large percentage of them.

Ok, so that was definitely longer than intended, sorry!!

TLDR: taking away tipping will result in two things: higher pricing and lower quality service. It’s just numbers.

 

[jcb]

I have no issues with the discretionary of tipping waitstaff, room cleaning staff, bell services, and drivers (I’m probably missing a position). I have a BIG problem with companies, including Disney, relying on tipping as part of their compensation package and with turning tipping into an included part of the overall price of the meal, service, etc. A recent occurrence that really bothered me was at the Aulani Laniwai spa. They add on an automatic 20% gratuity. I’d love to know what Disney is doing with that money. I bet they spread it out to compensate what would normally be considered non-tipped positions, allowing Disney to pay a lower wage. I wanted to tip my direct service provider (in this instance masseuse) at least 20%, but I had no idea of the amount of her cut of the required, automatic tip. Plus, it shouldn’t be that in order for the direct service provider to receive 20%, I’m required to pay an overall tip of 30%+.

If Disney is designating the 20% as a "gratuity" then it must go only to tipped employees.
Federal law now (as of 2018) states that "An employer may not keep tips received by its employees for any purposes . . . ." Tip pooling among employees who customarily and regularly receive tips is still permitted. Who is a tipped employee is open to some debate (but not really at WDW, as I address below). For more on this in general see https://dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/15-flsa-tipped-employees….

I’m not going to get deep into reasoning why restaurants WILL have to raise prices if tipping goes away, but I will try and explain quickly.

In Ohio, like most states, servers make $4.40-$4.80 an hour and take up the majority of hours we can schedule staff, about 60% of total staff hours are comprised of the lower wage. If that were to shoot up to $9-10 an hour first you’d lose half the work force because that typically cuts a good servers pay straight in half, talented servers can typically make at least $20/hr. You’d have to at least double, if not triple or quadruple in extreme cases, their wages just to keep them around or you’ll see a huge decline in service quality. Remember that diner waitress that never refilled your drink and took forever to drop your check, and didn’t care at all if you left them $1 or $10? You’ll start seeing that everywhere.

On top of that, tripling the wages for 60% of your work staff is going to cut into other areas of the operations and it needs to be made up somewhere, that’s just the reality of running a business. Restaurants are already running on a razor thin profit margin so tripling 60% of wages will have to make prices go up (or back of house wages go stagnant, causing lower quality food) to offset costs. You call it malarkey, restaurants call it turning a profit and staying open.

The only places you could reasonably try to enforce this is New York, California, and any of state where server minimum matches state minimum. But with a vast number of chains being country wide, being able to do that in only 2/50 states just doesn’t make sense. But even with that you’d still be drastically reducing the pay of talented servers and would lose a very large percentage of them.

Ok, so that was definitely longer than intended, sorry!!

TLDR: taking away tipping will result in two things: higher pricing and lower quality service. It’s just numbers.

I think one flaw in your retention argument is that if tips were removed wages would not "shoot up to $9-10" an hour but, for higher end restaurants at least, would be more of a living wage, e.g., $20 an hour, depending of course, at the restaurant. As a PP said, many fast food restaurants already pay north of $12 an hour (depending on location).

The other flaw I see in your argument is that this is how restaurants in Europe and the UK generally work. London is inundated with quality restaurants. But we don't have to look to London or Europe.

Tipped employees at WDW are members of the bargaining unit, their base wages are posted online at https://www.uniteherelocal362.org/wp-content/uploads/STCU-FT-ENGLISH-FINAL.pdf. Pages 57 and 58 show that, as of the end of last year, servers start at 5.70 an hour. Reading further, Disney imposes an 18% "service charge" on parties of 6 or more (20% at V&A). Federal law distinguishes between a "gratuity" and a "service charge" on several levels. A service charge is a mandatory fee imposed by the owner. If the guest has a choice whether or how much to pay (e.g., the bill shows the fee as a "suggested amount"), then the amount is generally considered a gratuity. The bargaining agreement explains:

It is the Company's understanding that when a business requires their guests to pay a Pre-determined charge, which is given to employees of the business, the charges are considered a service charge. Furthermore, service charges are not considered a tip, but rather, are wages paid by the employer. Consequently, the tax code requires the Company to withhold taxes on all service charges.​

Service charges, therefore, belong to the owner of the restaurant (and counts as taxable income to the owner). But if the owner imposes a mandatory "service charge", then the owner cannot pay employees a lower tipped wage rate for that service and must include the service charge in calculating overtime. (It gets really complicated when employees do both.).

Here, I read the bargaining agreement to say that Disney turns over the entire "service charge" to tipped employees. This isn't expressly stated but it seems to be implied by the procedure mandated in paragraph 6 - for when a guest refuses to pay the 18% "service charge" - on page 60. I could be wrong, however.

Plus, this is a very general analysis. The bargaining agreement is one of the most complex ones I've seen (the tipping rules alone make my head spin). I suspect the agreement has to be complex given all the different ways Disney charges its guests.

 

[jbehr12]

If Disney is designating the 20% as a "gratuity" then it must go only to tipped employees.
Federal law now (as of 2018) states that "An employer may not keep tips received by its employees for any purposes . . . ." Tip pooling among employees who customarily and regularly receive tips is still permitted. Who is a tipped employee is open to some debate (but not really at WDW, as I address below). For more on this in general see https://dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/15-flsa-tipped-employees….



I think one flaw in your retention argument is that if tips were removed wages would not "shoot up to $9-10" an hour but, for higher end restaurants at least, would be more of a living wage, e.g., $20 an hour, depending of course, at the restaurant. As a PP said, many fast food restaurants already pay north of $12 an hour (depending on location).

The other flaw I see in your argument is that this is how restaurants in Europe and the UK generally work. London is inundated with quality restaurants. But we don't have to look to London or Europe.

Tipped employees at WDW are members of the bargaining unit, their base wages are posted online at https://www.uniteherelocal362.org/wp-content/uploads/STCU-FT-ENGLISH-FINAL.pdf. Pages 57 and 58 show that, as of the end of last year, servers start at 5.70 an hour. Reading further, Disney imposes an 18% "service charge" on parties of 6 or more (20% at V&A). Federal law distinguishes between a "gratuity" and a "service charge" on several levels. A service charge is a mandatory fee imposed by the owner. If the guest has a choice whether or how much to pay (e.g., the bill shows the fee as a "suggested amount"), then the amount is generally considered a gratuity. The bargaining agreement explains:

It is the Company's understanding that when a business requires their guests to pay a Pre-determined charge, which is given to employees of the business, the charges are considered a service charge. Furthermore, service charges are not considered a tip, but rather, are wages paid by the employer. Consequently, the tax code requires the Company to withhold taxes on all service charges.​

Service charges, therefore, belong to the owner of the restaurant (and counts as taxable income to the owner). But if the owner imposes a mandatory "service charge", then the owner cannot pay employees a lower tipped wage rate for that service and must include the service charge in calculating overtime. (It gets really complicated when employees do both.).

Here, I read the bargaining agreement to say that Disney turns over the entire "service charge" to tipped employees. This isn't expressly stated but it seems to be implied by the procedure mandated in paragraph 6 - for when a guest refuses to pay the 18% "service charge" - on page 60. I could be wrong, however.

Plus, this is a very general analysis. The bargaining agreement is one of the most complex ones I've seen (the tipping rules alone make my head spin). I suspect the agreement has to be complex given all the different ways Disney charges its guests.

I agree it’s a general analysis, I wasn’t trying to get crazy with details nor do I have any real numbers in front of me to back it up. It was, however, a response to the PP that made the general statement that restaurant prices won’t go up if tips are eliminated.

I will agree that higher end restaurants would fair better with the higher wages, but prices are already going to be above average. If they want to pay for higher quality labor, by all means. I’m talking more about your mid level restaurants, the Applebee’s, Friday’s, Cheesecake Factories of the world. Also my argument wasn’t just Disney but for restaurants in general. I would actually agree that Disney might fair better than your average casual.

Lastly, wages would certainly have to shoot up to $9 or $10 at the least if servers are not being tipped or else they would be making less than five an hour. If 60% of your workforce wages double, thats a huge bill to foot and that money needs to come from somewhere.

The fast food argument doesn’t work at all because your typical fast food place has at most 15 employees on their highest volume shifts, on average probably half that. At the restaurant I manage, on a busy night, you’re looking between 30 and 40 people with upwards of 20 making less than $5 an hour.

I enjoy the intelligent discussion, thanks for that!

 

[sethschroeder]

Uhhh - dude you get sales commission. What are you talking about?

And servers can request compensation like that as well was my point.

But I guess you skipped over where I said

"If you are working where its $500/check then you push for higher hourly, salary, health insurance, bonus structure, profit sharing, commission, ect...."

It is the weirdest model in the world where the customer directly pays someone's salary basically instead of the employer. Not only that but bunch of it off the books as well.

 

[sethschroeder]

If 60% of your workforce wages double, thats a huge bill to foot and that money needs to come from somewhere.

Well anyone solving for this would outline the first need is for food prices to go up to basically offset what would have been a standard tip total. Now it likely wouldn't be the full amount but a good amount.

I also think you are not paying less than $10 to servers but it is highly dependent on the location.

I personally just want to see Disney change. Everyone else can do what they want. With a big enough use case there other could then start to explore it and choose to do it or not.

 

[jbehr12]

Well anyone solving for this would outline the first need is for food prices to go up to basically offset what would have been a standard tip total. Now it likely wouldn't be the full amount but a good amount.

I also think you are not paying less than $10 to servers but it is highly dependent on the location.

I personally just want to see Disney change. Everyone else can do what they want. With a big enough use case there other could then start to explore it and choose to do it or not.

Are you saying that you don’t think most restaurants pay servers less than $10/hr? Most establishments in most states do, it’s extremely rare to see a restaurant pay more than server minimum. I’ve been in the industry for fifteen years across four states and I’ve never worked anywhere that pays more than they have to. I’m sure it’s possible but it’s not common.

Here’s a link for reference:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage#State_law
Believe it or not the $4.50 I was quoting for Ohio actually looks good compared to $2.13 in some other states. I didn’t even realize it got that low, that’s kind of crazy.

 

[sethschroeder]

Are you saying that you don’t think most restaurants pay servers less than $10/hr? Most establishments in most states do, it’s extremely rare to see a restaurant pay more than server minimum. I’ve been in the industry for fifteen years across four states and I’ve never worked anywhere that pays more than they have to. I’m sure it’s possible but it’s not common.

Here’s a link for reference:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage#State_law
Believe it or not the $4.50 I was quoting for Ohio actually looks good compared to $2.13 in some other states. I didn’t even realize it got that low, that’s kind of crazy.

No I am saying if you are eliminating tips you have to make up for a good portion of what their total compensation is which is well over $10/hr in many cases.

Yes what's on the payroll is tiny but what they actually make is way more substantial.

 

[jbehr12]

No I am saying if you are eliminating tips you have to make up for a good portion of what their total compensation is which is well over $10/hr in many cases.

Yes what's on the payroll is tiny but what they actually make is way more substantial.

Oh yeah definitely in agreement there, I think we were both trying to say the same thing.

 

[dreamit]

If Disney is designating the 20% as a "gratuity" then it must go only to tipped employees.
Federal law now (as of 2018) states that "An employer may not keep tips received by its employees for any purposes . . . ." Tip pooling among employees who customarily and regularly receive tips is still permitted. Who is a tipped employee is open to some debate (but not really at WDW, as I address below). For more on this in general see https://dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/15-flsa-tipped-employees….

Thank you for all the information you shared, including the union contact. I’m finding it both fascinating and enlightening.

 

[sweetpeama]

I think that employers should be required to pay the same minimium wage to tipped employees as non tipped employees and stop relying on their customers to pay part of their employees wages.
Let me tell you about an experience I had at a family style resturant about 20 years ago.

This is a place that serves food similiar to what you would find at a Denny's or an IHOP
I was dining alone wearing Jeans and a t-shirt note I was also a bit heavyset (overweight) but not overly.
I had dined at this place in the past and knew full well that you could subsitute diced potatoes for the hashbrowns (I personally find hashbrowns overly greasy tasting due to the smaller size(not talking about the breaded ones similiar to tator tots but in squares) and will either order an item on the menu that does not have hashbrowns with it if I am ordering a breakfast platter or if the establishment allows you to substitute something else such as diced potatoes I do that. If it is a place that is new to me I have a 2nd option of what I would like in mind so when the server comes to take my order I can ask if they can subsitute diced potatoes for example for the hashbrowns and if I am told sorry no substitions order the alternative that does not have hashbrowns at that time. If they say no because we don't carry but you can subsitute this that or the other thing I decide really quick if I want one of those and either order that particular platter and ask for the substition that I want or I decide to go with my other chosen option.
I had ordered my beverage when I sat down and had received it from the person who sat me and had looked at the menu decided what I wanted and was waiting for the server to come take my order when my phone rang. Since it was my mom and my grandparents were not doing well (we were able to keep them in their home between scheduling family to stop at various times as well as having a home health care agency working with them so I knew depending if another family member got called into work I would need to go drive out to their farm to "visit" and check on them. This family member lived close by to the grandparents so I was the backup because I would have close to a 40 mile round trip drive opposed to their less than 5) so I took the call really quick and made sure to keep my voice low.
Server walks by after taking the order for those sitting across the room and 2-3 tables away from and tells me that it's rude to be on my phone and that I need to get off now. Meanwhile sitting almost directly across the room from me is a gentleman of avarage build dressed in business attire who has been on his phone the entire time from the moment he sat down. (As he sits down hold on just a second-orders his beverage, server comes hold on just a second-orders his food all loud enough that I with a hearing loss could hear his end of the conversation quite clearly.
My mom clearly hears the server and comments a bit bossy aren't we especially since I can hear that there is obviously someone else using their phone as well. We were actually done with our conversation yes you need to go to your grandparents, stop by my work and I will give you some money for gas and I have a few things I would like you to take out to them as well. (this was back in the pay for T9 texting).
Server comes takes my order which I ask for diced potatoes and not hashbrowns. I get my order and there are hashbrowns I tell the server excuse me I ordered dice not hashbrowns. Server tells me no substitutions. Now keep in mind that I went either to that location or another location in my area at least once a week by myself, at least once a week with my now husband, and at least 2 times a month with a group of friends and this was an item I regulary ordered so I knew darn well that you could substitute. I faked ignorance and asked the server oh when did that change because I order this when I was here in the evening last week with some friends and was able to substitute. Server tells me that well substitutions are allowed but I decided that you don't deserve it because you were rude and on your phone. At that point I was geting livid but was trying to be nice and said and why is the gentleman over there been allowed to be on his phone the entire time. I get told that is different he is obviously doing business and is not fat. I tell the server that I would like to speak to the manager. Server tells me that the manager is busy and she is not going to get the manager for me and walks away. I am in tears as I eat what I can of my food while keeping an eye out for another server to ask them to get the manager. Meanwhile my assigned server never comes back to the table to ask if I want a refill of my paid for beverage or refill my water. Server shows up to throw the check at me and tells me to stop my gad damn crying.
I had already decided through all this that the servers tip was going to go from 15% (standard at the time for my part of the country was 12% even places that added it automaticly to large parties charged this) to 12 to10 to 8 to 5 but that earned her no tip. (I also would do a raise up if a server went above and beyond staring out at 15% usually because the math was easier than figuring 12 and raise it to 18 to 20 and once in a blue moon 25% especially if the server kept my water glass full, didn't rush my main course when the appetizer was barely sat down, ect on a night a place was really busy).
When they bring your check there is also a comment card included which I filled out before leaving the table. I took the check, comment card and had cash in hand when I approached the cashier at the front. I also had written no tip ( the place a the time took either cash or a check) on the check. I handed everything to the cashier who saw that I had put no tip and asked me why when I mentioned what had happened cashier asked if I had spoken to a manager so I said I was told the manager was busy. Cashier told me to wait just a minute goes around a corner and within seconds surprise the too busy manager who gives me a discount on my meal due to the service I received and who looks at my comment card and the fact that I put no tip see comment card for why on the check. Oh and the next time now DH and I were in there in the evening our regular server told me that server when I said I hope it goes better here tonight than when I was in during the day the previous time and when asked what happened told her said that server was let go and she was wondering why because that server had been there for a while.
Being in a state that requires businesses to pay service employees the same as non service employees regarding minimium wage I did not feel one bit guilty about not tipping the server that treated me so horribly. If I had been in a state that pays servers less I would have felt guilty about not tipping at least something.

 

[jarestel]

There's nothing that says one can't tip for exceptional service regardless of the base pay. Unfortunately, many people won't tip if the person providing the service is making what they perceive as a "good enough" wage (housekeepers, delivery people, etc). Personally, I would not want to depend on the generosity of others to earn a living, but previous posters in this thread claim that servers prefer it that way. Whatever system is in place, I'll play along but it would be easier all around, IMO, to just pay everyone a wage and let people tip if they were moved to do so.

 

[dobball23]

One problem that still remains though is how do you incentivize servers to work hard to provide good service? Of course, many still would because of their good work ethics, but there's less motivation to take tables and put up with customer's crap if you're getting paid the same regardless.

How do other non-tipping industries "incentivize" employees to do their jobs? Employees are given expectations and the employer makes sure they're meeting those expectations. It's not the customer's responsibility to make sure your employees are doing their job.

 

[sethschroeder]

How do other non-tipping industries "incentivize" employees to do their jobs? Employees are given expectations and the employer makes sure they're meeting those expectations. It's not the customer's responsibility to make sure your employees are doing their job.

The only explanation I understand is the restaurant can not afford it. Which honestly isn't exactly true since every waitstaffer needs to be make at least minimum wage in the end.

If a good burger today is typically $15 then that is what you expect when you go out and you might double take a menu where the price is different. If however every good burger starting next month is $17 but doesn't require a tip then that will become second nature.

I mean people already know this as inflation and just accept nominal increases in costs especially if there is a legitimate reason (ie no tipping any longer).

Maybe Disney goes to this model but I doubt it. If anyone could it would be them. Heck they probably could even profit off it because they could mark up all menus 20% and give 10% to waitstaff salary and keep the extra 10%. They cut back 5% to the waitstaff as a quarterly bonus after time of money is in Disney's favor for holding the money for 1-4 months.

 

[nkereina]

I don't know if you have worked in a call center but there is a reason they have high turnover and its because people hate those jobs. So again I ask where are these cushy $15/hr jobs that everyone wants? Any of them that do exist are not going to have much turnover and you are not getting in. There are also many people who swear they will never sit behind a desk or will never work on their feet. People are all different and value different things and have different backgrounds.

Yes I have, I said in my post that I worked there! lol! As a former manager of a call center, I know it better than anyone. No, the jobs are not the most glamourous, but the majority of our turnover are due to internal transfers where the employee will be making a couple bucks more an hour. The majority of the people in these positions use it as a stepping stone to move up. A foot in the door. Even if someone hates call center work, it offers more opportunity than a serving job that has worse hours and no room for growth. And again, I offered you four examples off the top of my head in my own life where I know of $14-$15+ jobs. They are out there (well maybe not in the current climate, but in normal times). And frankly, I would think many servers would go work at McDonald's before continuing in a serving job that pays the same. The point is that there's easier work if pay is the same.

In the short term, yest people will struggle with the optics. But they will adjust. When they realize they don't have to leave a tip and breakfast is costing them the same they will adjust

Possibly, but the optics are only one issue. There are enough people opposed to changing the tipping model where I don't think it will change in the short term.

How do other non-tipping industries "incentivize" employees to do their jobs? Employees are given expectations and the employer makes sure they're meeting those expectations. It's not the customer's responsibility to make sure your employees are doing their job.

Customer's responsibility? I never said that. Not sure I'm following that thought. People in tipped positions know the more customers they serve and the better they are at it, the more they stand to make. Money is the motivator. Its no different with sales positions - should sales people make a flat salary with no commission then? Sure, sales people and servers alike would do what they need to do to keep their jobs. But the motivator that the employer relies on would be lost. Serving is a thankless job and the only reason many people stick with it is because of the money they can make from it. Without that incentive, those are going to be hard jobs to fill and the ones that do end up filling them may not even have the type of work ethic you'd want as a restaurant owner.

 

[jbehr12]

Serving is a thankless job and the only reason many people stick with it is because of the money they can make from it. Without that incentive, those are going to be hard jobs to fill and the ones that do end up filling them may not even have the type of work ethic you'd want as a restaurant owner.

This is exactly one of the largest consequences of eliminating tipping. Talented servers will just leave, and what you’ll have left over are the unmotivated waitstaff who just show up but don’t care about going above and beyond for anything. And they won’t have a reason to. Quality of service will literally nosedive.

 

[sethschroeder]

And again, I offered you four examples off the top of my head in my own life where I know of $14-$15+ jobs.

And you stated get a better job for minimum wage that is what I was going off of. I am stating to some people those call center jobs are terrible.

Also why do people work at all these other jobs in the area then that pay less than that call center job? By your reasoning those jobs should be completely empty. Stocking shelves for 8 hours overnight at Walmart/Target? Working as helper for landscaper during the summers? There are plenty of jobs that are way more physically demanding than 3-4 hours of waiting tables in a day especially when you have to do it for far longer.

Could it have something to do with limited job prospects for certain people, lack on desire for that call center job as another, and ease of getting a job since you since restaurants with "hiring" in the window going in to tourist seasons as an example.

And frankly, I would think many servers would go work at McDonald's before continuing in a serving job that pays the same. The point is that there's easier work if pay is the same.

And 1) McDonald's is doing more automation and needing less workers on top of a limited pool of jobs. 2) Will not pay as much as a successful restaurant who is providing bonus/incentives to workers. 3) Is still on your feet demanding work. 4) There is a stigma to working in a fast food location that some people will avoid

Customer's responsibility? I never said that. Not sure I'm following that thought. People in tipped positions know the more customers they serve and the better they are at it, the more they stand to make. Money is the motivator. Its no different with sales positions - should sales people make a flat salary with no commission then?

Wow that really went over your head. In the restaurant industry the servers wages are put on the customer and as the customers you are roughly 90% responsible for that servers wages. An example do you go to the local car deal, buy a used car for $10k then need to account for the sale person's income as well? No the company takes care of all of that.

Sales roles are paid commission, bonuses, incentives, review based incentives, review based pay raises, sales based salary increases, and a whole host of other things. All of this, some of this, or none of this could come to restaurants.

Serving is a thankless job

And other jobs are not? Many other low paying jobs are not? No one is saying working at a restaurant is a cake walk but I am not sure how server is the top of the heap as far as terrible jobs to have in that minimum wage to $15/hr space. I think it comes down to many people having only worked in a restaurant and there being so many current/ex waitstaff that push this messaging in comparison to other jobs. It 100% is a hard job but not so much more so that it needs special treatment.

My question is how would you react to other industries going to tipping requirements? Every time your Amazon package comes you need to tip lets say 10% the value of the box. Before we go down this route again from other threads giving someone a christmas gift is different than tipping on every package you have delivered and is likely way less money.

Also in a restaurant why is the server tipped but the chef/cook is not when in many cases they are not making that much money and shouldn't they want to be a server since they actually make less money than the waitstaff in my experience in the chain restaurants?