Should reliance on tipping stop?

Also in a restaurant why is the server tipped but the chef/cook is not when in many cases they are not making that much money and shouldn't they want to be a server since they actually make less money than the waitstaff in my experience in the chain restaurants?

Servers are on stage their whole shift and are constantly being judged from their physical appearance and cleanliness, to their knowledge and ability to communicate it, to their personality.... all of which can unfortunately impact their paycheck.

On top of that, they have to be the face of (and punching bag of) the restaurant to their guests when things outside their control are going wrong in the kitchen, which happens all the time. When things go well for servers they make a killing, but if they handle a situation poorly and don’t get a tip they literally are paying out of their own pocket to work after tipping out support staff.

Most back of house employees I know (chefs all the way down to dishwashers) just don’t want to deal with any of that. They’d rather just make a straight wage and not take the risk. Serving is big risk/reward, cooking is not.
 
I think there should be some type of balance. I tip, usually 18-20%. It's the norm here and I think the system works. With that said, different establishments should handle it differently. I never understood why the wait staff serving my my $50 dinner should get anymore than the one serving me my $5 breakfast at my local diner. The local diner wait staff is generally working 10X harder. So why is tipping based on the cost of the meal and not the time\service given? The high end steak house person get's a $10 tip. The person running thier butt off at the diner gets $1 for the same amount of effort. Many times more effort as they regularly refill my coffee etc. I get it, but in some ways the system makes zero sense.
 
And you stated get a better job for minimum wage that is what I was going off of. I am stating to some people those call center jobs are terrible.

Also why do people work at all these other jobs in the area then that pay less than that call center job? By your reasoning those jobs should be completely empty. Stocking shelves for 8 hours overnight at Walmart/Target? Working as helper for landscaper during the summers? There are plenty of jobs that are way more physically demanding than 3-4 hours of waiting tables in a day especially when you have to do it for far longer.

Could it have something to do with limited job prospects for certain people, lack on desire for that call center job as another, and ease of getting a job since you since restaurants with "hiring" in the window going in to tourist seasons as an example.




And 1) McDonald's is doing more automation and needing less workers on top of a limited pool of jobs. 2) Will not pay as much as a successful restaurant who is providing bonus/incentives to workers. 3) Is still on your feet demanding work. 4) There is a stigma to working in a fast food location that some people will avoid



Wow that really went over your head.
In the restaurant industry the servers wages are put on the customer and as the customers you are roughly 90% responsible for that servers wages. An example do you go to the local car deal, buy a used car for $10k then need to account for the sale person's income as well? No the company takes care of all of that.

Sales roles are paid commission, bonuses, incentives, review based incentives, review based pay raises, sales based salary increases, and a whole host of other things. All of this, some of this, or none of this could come to restaurants.


And other jobs are not? Many other low paying jobs are not? No one is saying working at a restaurant is a cake walk but I am not sure how server is the top of the heap as far as terrible jobs to have in that minimum wage to $15/hr space. I think it comes down to many people having only worked in a restaurant and there being so many current/ex waitstaff that push this messaging in comparison to other jobs. It 100% is a hard job but not so much more so that it needs special treatment.

My question is how would you react to other industries going to tipping requirements? Every time your Amazon package comes you need to tip lets say 10% the value of the box. Before we go down this route again from other threads giving someone a christmas gift is different than tipping on every package you have delivered and is likely way less money.

Also in a restaurant why is the server tipped but the chef/cook is not when in many cases they are not making that much money and shouldn't they want to be a server since they actually make less money than the waitstaff in my experience in the chain restaurants?

We can agree to disagree, no need to make it personal. I'm curious though as to why you're so vehemently opposed to tipping? Do you not patronize restaurants that have servers in tipped positions because of your stance on it?
 
I think there should be some type of balance. I tip, usually 18-20%. It's the norm here and I think the system works. With that said, different establishments should handle it differently. I never understood why the wait staff serving my my $50 dinner should get anymore than the one serving me my $5 breakfast at my local diner. The local diner wait staff is generally working 10X harder. So why is tipping based on the cost of the meal and not the time\service given? The high end steak house person get's a $10 tip. The person running thier butt off at the diner gets $1 for the same amount of effort. Many times more effort as they regularly refill my coffee etc. I get it, but in some ways the system makes zero sense.

That’s like asking why a CEO makes so much when they’re workers make so little. It has to do with caliber and quality of the establishment in addition to the amount of experience a server has. The higher end restaurants typically only will hire those who have put in the years of work at the lower end establishments, so yes they should make more.

Also, don’t let your calm and collected servers fool you into thinking they’re not working as hard as those diner workers. Chances are they’re dealing with and juggling much more than your average diner server, they just know how to not let it show. Hence why they deserve more.

I manage a higher end restaurant and there’s been nights I’ve had to wash dishes and speak directly to guests two minutes later. Did that guest know I just came from the dish tank? Not at all, and they don’t need to know. If you’re letting your stress show in this business, then you typically need more experience.
 


We can agree to disagree, no need to make it personal. I'm curious though as to why you're so vehemently opposed to tipping? Do you not patronize restaurants that have servers in tipped positions because of your stance on it?

Sorry if you feel personally attacked, I am not sure how to say it as you seem to have not understood the posters post at all. I am fairly straightforward so please do not take it personally as I am not trying to say you personally are stupid or anything like that it is just a common saying in my background.

Vehemently opposed is also not accurate. Refuting what I view to be incorrect information or theories on why it's not a good idea to remove tipping is what I am doing. As an example resturants not being able to afford minimum wage is partly a false statement because in certain states restaurants have to pay standard minimum wage or more. Some restaurants may go under but you could say the same about any wage enforcement yes all sectors of business continue with a change in their business model.

I also tip very well when I visit restaurants or take a Lyft and if I had options in my personal life I would opt for tipless business that pay workers fairly. I am opposed to businesses not fairly paying their employees because I know for a fact not everyone does tip well or in some circumstances tips at all. I have zero control over how others tip but I can provide feedback to businesses. I will say I never use bell service or other aspects of service because I do not carry cash and will perform the service myself.

You didn't seem to address my point since the start about people having all these other options so no one would be working at restaurants? You also didn't address my questions either I posed at the end.

they literally are paying out of their own pocket to work after tipping out support staff.

Which is illegal as the restaurant has to make them whole to whatever minimum wage is set to for that specific state. Regardless of state the waitstaff is required to make at least minimum wage.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped
Most back of house employees I know (chefs all the way down to dishwashers) just don’t want to deal with any of that. They’d rather just make a straight wage and not take the risk. Serving is big risk/reward, cooking is not.

So they are looking to make more money? This goes back to my point that waitstaff can still make more with incentive based pay that is controlled by the employer (not a random customer). There is no requirement for the waitstaff to be paid minimum wage with nothing extra.

Actually in some states waitstaff needs to be paid minimum wage or higher regardless of tips received.
 
That’s like asking why a CEO makes so much when they’re workers make so little. It has to do with caliber and quality of the establishment in addition to the amount of experience a server has. The higher end restaurants typically only will hire those who have put in the years of work at the lower end establishments, so yes they should make more.

Also, don’t let your calm and collected servers fool you into thinking they’re not working as hard as those diner workers. Chances are they’re dealing with and juggling much more than your average diner server, they just know how to not let it show. Hence why they deserve more. I manage a higher end restaurant and there’s been nights I’ve had to wash dishes and directly speak to guest two minutes later. Did that guest know I just came from the dish tank? Not at all.

I think a more accurate statement is why does the same waiter make $20 on a $100 bill for 2 people and then $30 on a $150 for 2 people. The only difference is one couple had steaks and the other couple had chicken for the main course.

Everything else is the same except the expeditor plated a different meat on the plate and the waiter entered a slightly different order. All the same work, expectations, and performance.

If the bonus is coming from the restaurant I understand the extra pay because its an upcharge. From the customer stand point it doesn't make logical sense.
 


Sorry if you feel personally attacked, I am not sure how to say it as you seem to have not understood the posters post at all. I am fairly straightforward so please do not take it personally as I am not trying to say you personally are stupid or anything like that it is just a common saying in my background.

Vehemently opposed is also not accurate. Refuting what I view to be incorrect information or theories on why it's not a good idea to remove tipping is what I am doing. As an example resturants not being able to afford minimum wage is partly a false statement because in certain states restaurants have to pay standard minimum wage or more. Some restaurants may go under but you could say the same about any wage enforcement yes all sectors of business continue with a change in their business model.

I also tip very well when I visit restaurants or take a Lyft and if I had options in my personal life I would opt for tipless business that pay workers fairly. I am opposed to businesses not fairly paying their employees because I know for a fact not everyone does tip well or in some circumstances tips at all. I have zero control over how others tip but I can provide feedback to businesses. I will say I never use bell service or other aspects of service because I do not carry cash and will perform the service myself.

You didn't seem to address my point since the start about people having all these other options so no one would be working at restaurants? You also didn't address my questions either I posed at the end.



Which is illegal as the restaurant has to make them whole to whatever minimum wage is set to for that specific state. Regardless of state the waitstaff is required to make at least minimum wage.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped


So they are looking to make more money? This goes back to my point that waitstaff can still make more with incentive based pay that is controlled by the employer (not a random customer). There is no requirement for the waitstaff to be paid minimum wage with nothing extra.

Actually in some states waitstaff needs to be paid minimum wage or higher regardless of tips received.

It’s called a minimum wage adjustment, well
aware, but most restaurants do whatever they can to avoid that because it costs them more than they’re budgeted for.

Incentive based pay just doesn’t work in the restaurant industry for servers with the system we have established, and while systems can be changed it would take the entire industry from corporate locations to small businesses to be on board along with state and federal legislation. It just isn’t going to happen, and every time a restaurant does try it it fails miserably.
 
Service in US mostly sucks with tipping can we imagine what it would be like without? Oy.

Does it suck any more than countries that don't have tipping that is common place? I wouldn't say its any better or worse but I don't personally have a ton of experience.

Not tipping does not mean the server would not get incentives for customer feedback or how quickly they tend to tables.
 
I think a more accurate statement is why does the same waiter make $20 on a $100 bill for 2 people and then $30 on a $150 for 2 people. The only difference is one couple had steaks and the other couple had chicken for the main course.

Everything else is the same except the expeditor plated a different meat on the plate and the waiter entered a slightly different order. All the same work, expectations, and performance.

If the bonus is coming from the restaurant I understand the extra pay because its an upcharge. From the customer stand point it doesn't make logical sense.

In a way that IS incentive based pay, actually. The higher revenue you make for your company (higher checks amounts), the more you bring home. As a server you’re incentivized to sell more of your restaurants product because the more sales dollars you have the more you bring in. A talented server will push those expensive steaks because they know the tips will be higher.
 
every time a restaurant does try it it fails miserably.

Which is why this thread originally was more so about Disney specifically because they could set a new standard. It also goes back to everyone really needing to be on board or it will not work.

I am not advocating a random small supper club make changes.

In a way that IS incentive based pay, actually. The higher revenue you make for your company (higher checks amounts), the more you bring home. As a server you’re incentivized to sell more of your restaurants product because the more sales dollars you have the more you bring in.

Correct but to my point. To the person paying the incentive it makes zero sense as to why they do it.

I completely understand if the business is paying the server more for pushing higher priced and margin products.
 
Which is why this thread originally was more so about Disney specifically because they could set a new standard. It also goes back to everyone really needing to be on board or it will not work.

I am not advocating a random small supper club make changes.



Correct but to my point. To the person paying the incentive it makes zero sense as to why they do it.

I completely understand if the business is paying the server more for pushing higher priced and margin products.

I agree to an extent. Tips used to mean more when it really stood for “to insure prompt service”, but times have changed and the rules haven’t changed along with the times. Now we’re in pretty deep, and if restaurants wanted to change then the state governments would have to change server minimum wage rates, and we all know how that will work out politically. We can’t even agree on a stimulus package to save our economy, I don’t think this will ever change.

Disney COULD get away with it but their whole staff would probably take a massive pay cut, I can’t see them even coming close to matching the hourly rates of what some servers probably take home on property. They would definitely lose a lot of talent.
 
Disney COULD get away with it but their whole staff would probably take a massive pay cut, I can’t see them even coming close to matching the hourly rates of what some servers probably take home on property. They would definitely lose a lot of talent.

I don't think it would need to be a massive pay cut though. Disney likely has a good handle on how much is both reported and unreported tip income. They could easily account for that when offering compensation and bonus incentives.

As far as losing talent? I am not sure? Would the servers at Disney have lots of job prospects? If things like healthcare, solid salary, and bonuses are all taken in to account would someone say no to that?

I also think Disney could honestly raise prices over the typical tip% and cover up the increase by stating tipping is no longer accepted anywhere at Disney World. So they could pay workers roughly the same but with a different incentive model on top of taking home additional revenue.

Why do I think Disney would probably not do this? The people who could give the okay for this are likely too high up in the company to worry about even deciding it.
 
Sorry if you feel personally attacked, I am not sure how to say it as you seem to have not understood the posters post at all. I am fairly straightforward so please do not take it personally as I am not trying to say you personally are stupid or anything like that it is just a common saying in my background.
Fair enough. I did say in my response to that poster that I didn't follow. I understand what they were getting at now through the explanation in your prior post.

You didn't seem to address my point since the start about people having all these other options so no one would be working at restaurants? You also didn't address my questions either I posed at the end.
I got busy at work - lol! But really, we just have a differing opinion and won't convince each other of anything, which is fine. I don't see the need to go in circles.
 

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