The Boat may have sailed, but I continue to let Member Services know....

[Dean]

As I posted in the thread below- sounds like the ability to modify existing reservations online is arriving shortly. Could dramatically increase walking.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/n...eservations-coming-to-member-website.3651995/

It depends on how it works, it's hard to say much until we see it in action. Sounds like a recipe for disaster either way though. Maybe a lot lose their reservation trying to do so or it could increase walking depending on how it works.

 

[aoconnor]

It depends on how it works, it's hard to say much until we see it in action. Sounds like a recipe for disaster either way though. Maybe a lot lose their reservation trying to do so or it could increase walking depending on how it works.

True- we don’t know what “modifying” means. Could mean changing names on the reservation, could mean changing dates (walking), could mean switching which contract the points come from. Who knows.

My guess is that it is indeed changing dates. I don’t like the concept of walking but I do think you should be able to do anything relatively routine, including changing dates, on the website. Having to call is an inconvenience in today’s world, as normal as it may have been just a few years ago.

 

[zavandor]

Walking is really no different than a VIP reservation system in principle so I'm assuming that everyone who is in favor of walking would in favor of such a system.

They seem two different things to me, but it that were true, then it works the other way around too: anyone in favor of a VIP system should also be in favor of walking

But, just to clarify: I am not in favor of walking, I think it would be better if that doesn't exist.
However:
- since the system is as it is, I cannot see anything unhetical in doing it. Refusing to do it just puts you at disadvantage
- I think it is just a marginal problem, having a much smaller impact than it is described here
- any change in the DVC system aimed to remove walking with an impact to all members who never have and never will walk is a very bad idea

 

[Dean]

They seem two different things to me, but it that were true, then it works the other way around too: anyone in favor of a VIP system should also be in favor of walking

But, just to clarify: I am not in favor of walking, I think it would be better if that doesn't exists.
However:
- since the system is as it is, I cannot see anything unhetical in doing it. Refusing to do it just puts you at disadvantage
- I think it is just a marginal problem, having a much smaller impact than it is described here
- any change in the DVC system aimed to remove walking with an impact to all members who never have and never will walk is a very bad idea

We agree that if that's the current option, no one should be upset with a member using it and any consternation should be aimed at DVC. I think it's a bigger problem than you do and IMO, it's against the spirit of the written rules so I don't think DVCMC should allow it. Regardless its clearly becoming a larger issue than it has been and depending on how the online modification option works, it could explode very quickly.

But for the record, I feel the same way about a VIP system, it's outside what should be allowed but if it is allowed, one should take advantage of it. There is a big difference though with the VIP systems that makes them more reasonable than walking, they are advertised and documented and have specific rules of their own.

 

[zavandor]

But for the record, I feel the same way about a VIP system, it's outside what should be allowed but if it is allowed, one should take advantage of it. There is a big difference though with the VIP systems that makes them more reasonable than walking, they are advertised and documented and have specific rules of their own.

But a VIP system doesn't exist. If they create it now, they would put people able to spend more money in front of members who purchased years ago. Go explain members who purchased AKV for the consierge options that they cannot get it because people who purchase 1000points have the precedence.
At least an advantage based on knowledge is equally (un)fair for everyone.

 

[kboo]

A VIP system exists already - it's called owning more points.

I think I am seeing a BLT std room being walked right now. I'm not mad at the walking, even though it likely means that I won't be able to book that room myself. But since we are in process of buying more points, now I don't have to be quite so frugal with the points I already have. I can book a LV room instead (those are wide open) and not have to bother with stalking the WL again. Or, I can book the LV room so I have a back up and use my extra points to stalk the waitlist. Either way, I have options that someone who really needs to save the 20-30 points each year because they can't pay for the LV option does not.

I do think that coming up with a global fix FOR THE PURPOSE of addressing the perceived unfairness of walking is like using a nuke to swat a fly. And we see how well that works in Bugs Bunny cartoons. (Or anybody v. Chip n Dale, to use a Disney metaphor).

Again, to highlight @zavandor's point above - walking is done with about 20 rooms - not room types - 20 ROOMS out of thousands of DVC rooms. a global fix is going to have terrible global and unintended consequences.

 

[Ben E N]

I do think that coming up with a global fix FOR THE PURPOSE of addressing the perceived unfairness of walking is like using a nuke to swat a fly. And we see how well that works in Bugs Bunny cartoons. (Or anybody v. Chip n Dale, to use a Disney metaphor).

Again, to highlight @zavandor's point above - walking is done with about 20 rooms - not room types - 20 ROOMS out of thousands of DVC rooms. a global fix is going to have terrible global and unintended consequences.

This is why a point reallocation would both fix walking and not hurt everybody else at the same time. Reduce the specialness of the special rooms. They should still be cheaper, just not by as significant of a margain.

 

[kboo]

This is why a point reallocation would both fix walking and not hurt everybody else at the same time. Reduce the specialness of the special rooms. They should still be cheaper, just not by as significant of a margain.

Since my DH recently decided he wants to stay in 1BR going forward, and we bought to stay sometimes in studios and sometimes not, and thus are now adding on, I would be in favor of this!! Make my 1BR cheaper! (Separate from the whole walking issue, I am always annoyed that 1BR cost around 2x more than studios and sleep pretty much the same # of people. But that's a whole 'nother complaint.

 

[Dean]

But a VIP system doesn't exist. If they create it now, they would put people able to spend more money in front of members who purchased years ago. Go explain members who purchased AKV for the consierge options that they cannot get it because people who purchase 1000points have the precedence.
At least an advantage based on knowledge is equally (un)fair for everyone.

Not with DVC but it does with others, I was pointing out that the principles were similar. But specific to a VIP system, they could install one now if they wanted and yes, it would put those who had more qualified points ahead of others who had owned longer in the ares involved with the VIP system. The difference for walking is it isn't a published and plan item, it's a loophole. Now if EVERYONE knew about it, I'd likely agree with you but many don't and it's not because they don't understand the rules, that's where the difference lies IMO.

 

[ziravan]

Not with DVC but it does with others, I was pointing out that the principles were similar. But specific to a VIP system, they could install one now if they wanted and yes, it would put those who had more qualified points ahead of others who had owned longer in the ares involved with the VIP system. The difference for walking is it isn't a published and plan item, it's a loophole. Now if EVERYONE knew about it, I'd likely agree with you but many don't and it's not because they don't understand the rules, that's where the difference lies IMO.

With any rule based system, those that fully know the rules, including and I’d say especially loopholes, have a distinct advantage.

As someone who has dedicated quite a bit of time learning the system, I find it hard to get choked up about any advantage that gives me.

Knowledge is power.

 

[Dean]

With any rule based system, those that fully know the rules, including and I’d say especially loopholes, have a distinct advantage.

As someone who has dedicated quite a bit of time learning the system, I find it hard to get choked up about any advantage that gives me.

Knowledge is power.

I'd agree on the member side but not on the system side, which has been my point. To tie back in to the VIP question, the same applies, one who puts themselves in a position to be above the other members, usually by an additional $$$ commitment, is doing exactly the same thing. So to amend what I said further, philosophically I don't think it possible to be in favor of walking and not OK with a VIP system though I do think the reverse it true because walking is not a published option, it is a loophole. Now if they listed it on the website and had a Disney Files article on walking/how to walk, I'd be OK with it. I'm not a big believer in the DADT philosophy.

 

[n2mm]

A VIP system exists already - it's called owning more points.

I think I am seeing a BLT std room being walked right now. I'm not mad at the walking, even though it likely means that I won't be able to book that room myself. But since we are in process of buying more points, now I don't have to be quite so frugal with the points I already have. I can book a LV room instead (those are wide open) and not have to bother with stalking the WL again. Or, I can book the LV room so I have a back up and use my extra points to stalk the waitlist. Either way, I have options that someone who really needs to save the 20-30 points each year because they can't pay for the LV option does not.

I do think that coming up with a global fix FOR THE PURPOSE of addressing the perceived unfairness of walking is like using a nuke to swat a fly. And we see how well that works in Bugs Bunny cartoons. (Or anybody v. Chip n Dale, to use a Disney metaphor).

Again, to highlight @zavandor's point above - walking is done with about 20 rooms - not room types - 20 ROOMS out of thousands of DVC rooms. a global fix is going to have terrible global and unintended consequences.

Yes, I’m watching BLT too. I have enough to book a 1 bedroom standard. If I get shut out at the 11 month window I’ll just waitlist. At the 7 month window I’ll try for something else that sleeps 5 in a one bedroom. I own at BLT to book at the 11 month window. There are not enough standards for all of us....it’s like musical chairs. Good luck booking!

 

[SL6827]

Go explain members who purchased AKV for the consierge options that they cannot get it because people who purchase 1000points have the precedence.
At least an advantage based on knowledge is equally (un)fair for everyone.

So you think that they will start letting those who own far more points book sooner or something?

 

[ParkHoppers]

Truth is that it still takes a certain type of person to use a loophole to put themselves in front of others. As said by others walking is not in the original spirit of how the 11th month booking window is supposed to work. Not much different than when banks sold what they knew where very bad loans to people in the housing crisis a few years back. The people selling the bad loans weren’t necessarily breaking the law but they knew it was Wrong. Like I said it takes a certain type to take advantage of something that is not meant to be or just feels wrong. Motivation alone is not the only factor. Character and doing right by your fellow members matters to some people. Anyway I figure DVC will try to fix the walking issue when it means a lot more work for them. I think we are close on that.

 

[ziravan]

Truth is that it still takes a certain type of person to use a loophole to put themselves in front of others. As said by others walking is not in the original spirit of how the 11th month booking window is supposed to work. Not much different than when banks sold what they knew where very bad loans to people in the housing crisis a few years back. The people selling the bad loans weren’t necessarily breaking the law but they knew it was Wrong. Like I said it takes a certain type to take advantage of something that is not meant to be or just feels wrong. Motivation alone is not the only factor. Character and doing right by your fellow members matters to some people. Anyway I figure DVC will try to fix the walking issue when it means a lot more work for them. I think we are close on that.

I didn’t pay $10’s of thousands of dollars to do right by you. Nor am I morally obligated to do so.

This is the age old argument of equal outcome vs equal opportunity. You’re entitled as a fellow member to an equal opportunity to the first come, first served system. You’re not entitled to an equal outcome.

The people who learn and work the system will have an advantage. It’s an advantage anybody can take the time and energy to do, but few will.

If you want to unilaterally disarm, that’s on you. If I start unilaterally yielding to others because my knowledge gives me a competitive advantage, then there’s no end to that path for me.

I don’t feel the slightest bit of moral imperative to help you ensure that you get your reservation to my detriment. Nope.

Not only would I walk if needed... Not only would I not feel bad about it... I would in fact be very pleased with myself for expending the energy and effort to maximize my use.

And that’s my point from earlier. No matter how you try to impose your ethics on me regarding this, I’m not buying. It’s a practical impossibility to get compliance on ethics without either buy in or penalty.

Since there is neither here (I don’t subscribe to your ethics here and I don’t face a penalty for not subscribing), following the concept that walking is unethical only ties the hands of those who won’t/don’t walk as a result.

 

[Dean]

Truth is that it still takes a certain type of person to use a loophole to put themselves in front of others. As said by others walking is not in the original spirit of how the 11th month booking window is supposed to work. Not much different than when banks sold what they knew where very bad loans to people in the housing crisis a few years back. The people selling the bad loans weren’t necessarily breaking the law but they knew it was Wrong. Like I said it takes a certain type to take advantage of something that is not meant to be or just feels wrong. Motivation alone is not the only factor. Character and doing right by your fellow members matters to some people. Anyway I figure DVC will try to fix the walking issue when it means a lot more work for them. I think we are close on that.

I'd agree with Ziravan here. While I personally don't think DVCMC should allow it and think it's an unintended consequence rather than a planned event, it is the current lay of the land. Since they do allow it, no one should feel bad about using the option. Just like no one should feel bad for them if/when it goes away and a different member playing by any new rules gets in ahead of them. I'd also agree that those that are both better educated on the system AND put forth the effort, will almost always be ahead of those that don't, the early bird gets the worm so to speak. As much as I feel DVCMC should stop it, I know that if they go in trying to do something minor hoping it'll stop or make it better, it'll likely be worse. That's why I feel that have to do something that either stops it 100% of the time or makes it actually hurt in terms of losing points or $$$.

 

[zavandor]

Truth is that it still takes a certain type of person to use a loophole to put themselves in front of others. As said by others walking is not in the original spirit of how the 11th month booking window is supposed to work. Not much different than when banks sold what they knew where very bad loans to people in the housing crisis a few years back. The people selling the bad loans weren’t necessarily breaking the law but they knew it was Wrong. Like I said it takes a certain type to take advantage of something that is not meant to be or just feels wrong. Motivation alone is not the only factor. Character and doing right by your fellow members matters to some people. Anyway I figure DVC will try to fix the walking issue when it means a lot more work for them. I think we are close on that.

And it takes another kind of person to express such a moral judgement on people they do not know.

The problem here has been created by Disney. They clearly mispriced some of the categories, underbuilt others and they are not reacting to a shift to members travel patterns. I think the only solution to the walking problem is a reallocation (or multiple reallocations), but Disney won't do it because they don't want to deal with the uproar of people complaining (some will gain from a reallocation, some will loose, but those loosing will be 100% more vocal about it). I'm scared that to fix the problem in a different way they'll just hurt everyone.

 

[MakiraMarlena]

Not everybody considers it a moral imperative to stick to the "spirit" of how things are supposed to work. In fact, very few do. As for DVC, in the great scheme of things this one isn't a big deal unless its you that didn't get in fast enough to get that reservation.

 

[ReagentGrade]

I also think it's OK to walk. They didn't make the rules; this is within the rules, so it's OK to take advantage of this loophole. Having said this, I'd be happy if they changed the rules to prevent walking.

 

[kboo]

Also - the analogy to the banks selling bad loans is totally misplaced and unnecessarily mean and judgmental. In the situation with the banks, people were criminally prosecuted, so yes, there actually *were* laws that were already on the books that were broken. (Also, have you watched or read The Big Short? The walkers here are more akin to the people who saw what was happening and took the opposite (short) side against the banks and made a ton of money.) Here, we're arguing about the "spirit" of the rules when the fact is we all agree that the plain language of the rules permits it, to the point that even many CMs advise it.