To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

[DopeyBadger]

Is it still your plan to run Chicago "blind" (no real-time splits)?

Yes, that's very likely going to be the case. I tried looking at splits for the 2017 Lakefront Marathon for this first time in years and it bothered me for the first few miles. I did eventually go back blind, calmed down and settled in. I looked at the splits during the Dopey Challenge races occasionally, but it didn't bother me as much. I think because I had no time goal and I knew that the splits were whatever they ended up being. I believe motivation is a big key to long distance racing and I find personally I can keep my motivation higher when I don't actually know the splits.

 

[canglim52]

Thanks! Chicago won't know what hit them!



Thanks! It was definitely a challenge. Adding in that I'm not in peak condition either meant an extra layer.



Interested in giving Daniels a try for a marathon cycle.



I've hit that mental limit plenty of times. More often than not in racing the mental issues came from the data and my inability to tolerate the ebbs and flows. I've also definitely hit that mental fatigue wall where I don't think I can push any further. Sometimes I can and sometimes I can't.

This felt different. I wasn't at the wall, but I could tell the wall was coming sooner than it should. That inevitable question of whether to push more or less. It felt like if I didn't make a change quick that the wall was coming way too early and was going to make it an extreme struggle soon. It was a very sudden feeling. It wasn't gradual. It was a realization in mid-stride like a click of a finger that said you are treading into a pace zone that is not meant for this race. It's hard to say whether I could have continued to sustain, but based on the HR data that was coming in (evaluated post-race) and my historical data, my feelings were likely correct.

I don't look at any data while running. I'm at peace with the results of the race because I trust myself to give my best effort (when I want to). Whereas for some reason when I watch the data come in live it just seems different to me. I'm way overanalyzing everything instead of just running.

I’ve found that hitting the heat wall is far different than anything else. Heat will make you back off well before you hit a true wall, and I’d venture a guess that it’s because your body knows better. That said, I’ve also read if you accumulate heat too fast your body won’t register it and you can easily end up with heat stroke if you’re not careful.
So imo when it’s hot out, I don’t push past my mental walls the same way I might when it’s cooler. Also, heat is all relative to your training environment... so one persons hot is another’s balmy

Flattered to be called a speed demon!! These temp adjustments certainly don’t make me feel like one lol! I just know once the weather turns I’ll be very happy with all my suffering

Also question about rest intervals. Would longer rest intervals be benifical for high heat training? It seems like it would bring down your core temp a bit more allowing your muscles to work better and your HR to climb better for the interval. However that’s just my guess, and I don’t know the science behind that.... Thoughts?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Also question about rest intervals. Would longer rest intervals be benifical for high heat training? It seems like it would bring down your core temp a bit more allowing your muscles to work better and your HR to climb better for the interval. However that’s just my guess, and I don’t know the science behind that.... Thoughts?

It's reasonable, but I don't know definitively. But the key I feel is the consistency in splits. The ability to hit the desired pace from beginning to end is a good sign of a workout. So if you feel like you need a slightly longer or slower resting interval, then go for it.

 

[SarahDisney]

This peak weeks being exclusively easy thing is interesting. I'm sure I'm oversimplifying it (or totally off base, one of the two), but it kinda seems like those weeks you focus on mileage and not at all on intensity. Which is an interesting idea, separating the two somewhat. I'm excited to see how this works out for you.

Also, just remember that while sub-3 is great, you're going to need to shave a few minutes off that for your NYC marathon qualifying time. (I think it's 2:53, but I might be wrong)

 

[DopeyBadger]

This peak weeks being exclusively easy thing is interesting. I'm sure I'm oversimplifying it (or totally off base, one of the two), but it kinda seems like those weeks you focus on mileage and not at all on intensity. Which is an interesting idea, separating the two somewhat. I'm excited to see how this works out for you.

Makes sense to me. It'll be interesting to see the Stravistix data on the training load and how it differs.

Also, just remember that while sub-3 is great, you're going to need to shave a few minutes off that for your NYC marathon qualifying time. (I think it's 2:53, but I might be wrong)

LOL! I'm thinking the HM is the more likely (but still unlikely) number to hit at 1:21.

 

[tmungania]

2018 Chicago Marathon Training Plan

Well ladies and gents, here we go! Time for the Chicago Marathon training plan. This one has been on the list for a while. So it's an absolute treat to get to run it. The hope is to finally break that 3 hour marathon barrier. But I'm going to take everything in stride and see where the chips may lie come October 7th.

Pacing

As always, we start with the pacing which I find to be one of the most critical aspects of training plans. I'll have a set pace schedule, but honestly in the summer I just go by what feels right. Somedays will be slower or faster than others merely by the T+D.

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The ultimate key is making sure that easy stays easy, because if easy doesn't feel easy, then it isn't easy. So I can certainly go slower than 7:42 and 8:16, but I should never be going faster than it. If I want to run a 9:00, then I'll run a 9:00 if it feels right. Stay easy on the easy days, so you can do hard on the hard days.

The Plan

I've got 16 weeks to go starting from next week. I peaked in the last plan two weeks ago at 55 miles (7:42 duration). After 1.5 weeks of easier running and pulling back the training ahead of Hot2Trot, I'm now ready to build back up. Since I ran the HM hard, I need at least 7 days of easy running. So I'm going to go back up to 52 miles (6:45 duration) with almost exclusively easy running. The duration might be a touch longer, but ideally I'd rather have the mileage be lower and the mileage stay as is if it's necessary to slow down more.

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For this marathon cycle, I'm trying Daniels 4 week cycle for the first time. It focuses on 6 days running per week, only 2 hard days (but really hard), and peak weeks being exclusively easy. It's different than what I've used in the past and my hope is it mediates the injury risk of my previous plans.

Maximize gains and minimize risk.

Train smarter not necessarily harder.

Easy must be easy.

All things I plan to remind myself throughout this plan.

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So the next two weeks are focused on hitting that duration of around 7.5 hours. Daniels requests calculating the peak mileage and working from that. I wanted to peak at around 9 hours which worked out to 71 miles. Then Daniels schedules weeks at 90%, 80%, and 70% peak. The days marked in a black box are days I'm taking off work. I'm doing this for the second year in a row so that I can maximize my family time outside of running. So I chose days where I was going to be running greater than 1:45 as days I would take off. I'll also hopefully better be able to choose tolerable running temps. The plan starts off right out of the gate with a 6+6 MP workout. I've got some fireworks of my own on 7/4 with 8 total miles at T pace with some R mid-run. The week as a whole is relatively easy with only a LR on the weekend (no hybrid). The week of 7/9 represents peak mileage, but exclusively easy. This is an interesting concept to me, so I'm interested to see how it plays out in reality. Back when I reviewed Ian Williams paper on the new race equivalency calculator, I questioned a plan that peaked so early. But this is different because the peak is in almost all easy mileage. So possibly those who were in the Williams paper were doing the same. lastly, the week of 7/16 represents my first triple paced run (T to I to R) and then a MASSIVE 14 mile M Tempo run. I primarily chose this Daniels plan because of its extreme focus on marathon paced workouts. The goal is to really really drive home that pacing. I want it engrained in my brain come race start. Doing 90 min of M Tempo is far more than I've done in the past. I generally felt I struggled the most with M Tempo workouts, so I'm eager to give them the desired improvement they deserve.

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Another 14 miles M Tempo but split with an easy mile between. Then a weekend run with 9 miles at Daniels T! The key is the mileage is pulled way down. So all of the mid-week runs are only at 5 miles (no 7 milers or 12 milers). The week of 7/30 is an easy week from an intensity standpoint, but the mileage goes up a touch. The week of 8/6 represents the peak again, but this time with a little M Tempo workout in it (instead of exclusive easy). The week of 8/13 is up in the air for me. I haven't signed up for the Madison Mini HM yet, but I want to. But after this weekend's HM, I'm considering not signing up so I can focus on training. I've got some time to consider my options before the next price increase. I'm likely to opt out of the optional blue run.

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What happens the week of 8/20 will be dictated by whether I do actually race the Madison Mini. The cycle continues with another 9 mile T run, then 15 miles M Tempo, then a triple paced run, then lastly a 15 mile M Tempo run in the midst of the maximal 2.5 hr run. The peak of the plan is hit for the last time the week of 8/27 6 weeks out. Normally it's 3 weeks out, but Daniels does it earlier with a massive focus on intensity late in the plan.

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Now the true crux of the plan centers around the three 2.5 hour runs on 9/9, 9/12, and 9/16. We shall see about this. That 9/12 would be my longest training run ever at 21 miles (with 16 at MP). Then 12 miles at LT pacing. Seems quite insane and maybe needs to be toned down come actual week of. The plan starts its descent from there in a normal 21 day taper.

In total, only 2 weeks of 9+ hrs and 1 week of 8-9 hrs. The goal is to maximize training but keep the load small enough that my body can tolerate it. We will see whether it works in reality as much as I hope it does in theory.

The goal

To have an enjoyable Chicago marathon experience and to let the cards lie wherever they may land. It's just a matter of time.

Such a great analysis.It was a great read as I am following the same plan for my September race. Those 14-16@Mp will be challenging. I got a taste of some Mp this am and I can tell we will have a lot of fun. Lol. On the cut back weeks, I like how it's all easy runs! And obviously, if one need a day off to , lower miles on cut back weeks should be ok. Right?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Such a great analysis.It was a great read as I am following the same plan for my September race. Those 14-16@Mp will be challenging. I got a taste of some Mp this am and I can tell we will have a lot of fun. Lol. On the cut back weeks, I like how it's all easy runs! And obviously, if one need a day off to , lower miles on cut back weeks should be ok. Right?

Well then we should get a good idea how the plan plays out. The canary in the coal mine. As for the cut back weeks, if you look on the left side of the table it lists values (1.0, 0.9, 0.8, and 0.7). These represent the % of mileage based on the peak. So since I'm peaking at 70 miles, then my 0.9 = 63 miles, 0.8 = 56 miles, and 0.7 = 49 miles. I believe the 0.7 only happens right before the race, so the 0.8 weeks represent the "cutback" weeks. Could you add in an extra rest day? Sure. You might consider bumping up one of the other days mileage slightly (but I wouldn't exceed 60 min on those easy days). So like my 7/23 week is a 0.8 week:



The Wed and Sunday runs are set in stone based on the 50/70 plan. I filled in the remaining necessary mileage to get to that 0.8 number (in this case I went with 52 miles). To hit that, I actually had to drop my normal easy run distance from 7 miles down to 5 miles (and remove that 90 min easy day on Saturday). If I were to take off Thursday, then I'd probably look to bump the other days up a bit to compensate to keep that total distance close to the desired mark:



Still at 52 miles, and the easy days duration is still less than 60 min. Overall, this should even out and fit within Daniels guidelines.

What I do find interesting is the "hard" days in the 50/70 plan are in violation of some of Daniels other principles from earlier in the book.

-Daniels T should be no more than 10% of the weekly mileage in a single run. But that week of 7/23 (4x2 + 1 = 9 miles T) is much higher than the 5.2 limit based on 10%. For that 9 mile T to be acceptable, we would need to be doing 90 miles that week (but obviously that isn't happening during a cutback week (0.8) or during a plan that is suppose to be 50/70). The 9/10 week has another example at 4 x 3 mile T which at 12 miles would require 120 miles during that week to hit that 10% number.

-Daniels T should be no more than 60 total min at T pace. But the run during the week of 9/10 (4 x 3 mile T) would be a duration of 1:17. For that run to be less than 60 min, one would need to have their T pace scheduled at a 5 min/mile or faster (5min/mile x 12 miles = 60 min). For someone to have a 5 min/mile T pace, they'd need to have the fitness of a 2:17 (!!!) marathon. There are few very humans capable of a 2:17 marathon, and even fewer that are training at 50-70 miles per week.

-M Tempo is suppose to be limited to 20% of the weekly mileage in a single run. But that week of 7/23 (8MP + 6MP = 14 MP) is much higher than the 10.4 limit based on 20%. For that 14 mile T to be acceptable, we would need to be doing 70 miles (or the supposed peak of the plan during a 0.8 week). The week of 9/3 is another example with that 5 mile WU + 15 mile MP which occurs during a 0.9 week, thus 20% is 12.4. To hit that 15 miles we'd need to be doing 75 miles (which is higher than the supposed peak of a 50/70 plan).

-Daniels prefers the longest run of the week be no more than 25% of the weekly mileage. But a week with two runs at 21 miles (3+10+1+6+1 on 9/12) and 20 miles (7+4x3+2 on 9/16) in a single week at a 90% week means that we should be doing about 63 miles. The 21 and 20 make up 65% of that week's mileage and it is impossible to have them be no more than 25% of the week's mileage. That would require a minimum of 84 miles in that week. If that's suppose to be a 0.9 week, then that would require a peak of 93 miles. Much higher than a 50/70 plan.

It does beg the question. Which set of rules to follow. Do we follow the rules from earlier in the book setting the guidelines for the different paces? Or do we follow the "hard" days as designed in the 50/70 plan that was specifically written for someone to peak in that area of mileage? We shall see. I'm skeptical of competing three 2.5 hr training runs in the span of a week and that being something that won't absolutely demolish me. And it's not like any of those three 2.5 hr runs are easy: (5 WU + 15 MP), then (3 WU +10 MP +1 WU + 6 MP + 1 CD), then (7 WU + 4x3 T + 2 CD). I'm entering that part of the plan with extreme caution.

One last item to consider. Written in the text of the plan, but not near the plan, it does say with the 4 week rotating plan that we're following to be a few rungs below normal pacing at the beginning of the plan. So take the first third easier on the pacing, the second third close to pacing, and the last third at or slightly faster than pacing. This makes sense to an extent as there is little differentiation from the beginning of the plan to the end, so he manipulates the intensity of the workouts not from a duration standpoint but from a pace standpoint to keep you progressing throughout the plan. If you were to do this whole plan at the same pacing scheme, then you may find yourself becoming stale towards the end as you hit the peak too soon and started overtraining.

 

[tmungania]

It does beg the question. Which set of rules to follow. Do we follow the rules from earlier in the book setting the guidelines for the different paces? Or do we follow the "hard" days as designed in the 50/70 plan that was specifically written for someone to peak in that area of mileage? We shall see. I'm skeptical of competing three 2.5 hr training runs in the span of a week and that being something that won't absolutely demolish me. And it's not like any of those three 2.5 hr runs are easy: (5 WU + 15 MP), then (3 WU +10 MP +1 WU + 6 MP + 1 CD), then (7 WU + 4x3 T + 2 CD). I'm entering that part of the plan with extreme caution.

Thanks for getting more detailed on the plans specifics. What I did for my my plan is I took the workouts for the 41-55 miles a week and used the overall miles to peak at the 70Miles per week for the reasons u started. The plans seem to violate his books principals and with the summer training, seemed like a better idea to take on less workload on the quality days. I did the a workout today with 13@Mp , with 1E after 6M, 5M and 2M. Adding another M mile would have been very challenging but certainly doable. My HR went into threshold mode the last set. Lol

 

[DopeyBadger]

Thanks for getting more detailed on the plans specifics. What I did for my my plan is I took the workouts for the 41-55 miles a week and used the overall miles to peak at the 70Miles per week for the reasons u started. The plans seem to violate his books principals and with the summer training, seemed like a better idea to take on less workload on the quality days. I did the a workout today with 13@Mp , with 1E after 6M, 5M and 2M. Adding another M mile would have been very challenging but certainly doable. My HR went into threshold mode the last set. Lol

That's a safe way to handle the situation. Good idea!

 

[tmungania]

It does beg the question. Which set of rules to follow. Do we follow the rules from earlier in the book setting the guidelines for the different paces? Or do we follow the "hard" days as designed in the 50/70 plan that was specifically written for someone to peak in that area of mileage? We shall see. I'm skeptical of competing three 2.5 hr training runs in the span of a week and that being something that won't absolutely demolish me. And it's not like any of those three 2.5 hr runs are easy: (5 WU + 15 MP), then (3 WU +10 MP +1 WU + 6 MP + 1 CD), then (7 WU + 4x3 T + 2 CD). I'm entering that part of the plan with extreme caution.

I will be following to see how you approach this. I decided to follow the earlier book guidelines, Which cuts about a mile from the M pace miles and the T pace miles too. i guess we will see how that plays out!

 

[DopeyBadger]

I will be following to see how you approach this. I decided to follow the earlier book guidelines, Which cuts about a mile from the M pace miles and the T pace miles too. i guess we will see how that plays out!

Flexibility. I've written my plan to follow his from the book. But I also know it's not written in stone. So if I need to pull back on a workout, or a series of workouts or mid-work, etc. I'll leave that flexibility mentally to know it's ok. The goal is consistent good training.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Alright everyone cross your fingers for G again. Steph saw a thing on Facebook late last night that Waitress (traveling Broadway show) was coming to the Overture Center in Madison. They were looking for girl age 4-5 to play Lulu (the young daughter who only appears at the very end of the play with a single speaking line). I guess it's pretty common for the traveling Broadway shows to get a local kid to play a role rather than have them travel around. So Steph signed her up and G went to the audition this afternoon. They sat in a circle and they asked everyone their name and G said hers. They went through a few other things and then asked if anyone had a question. G raised her hand and asked if she could ask a question. She said "Can I go first?" The lady said she would see what she could do. She ended up going second. She was up on stage and the role requires her to run up to the mom and say "momma". The director said "louder" and G yelled "MOMMA". She was in there for about 10 min in total. She came out and the lady asked if she could wait around to talk to the press. So after about 1.5 hrs of waiting she was interviewed by the local news. The news guy said she was AMAZING in the audition and that we should be very proud. He asked her a few questions but I guess she tightened up in front of the camera and didn't say much. But he did ask what she would do if she got the role and she just screamed "AHHHH!". I guess we find out in 2 weeks whether she gets the role. The news piece airs in July right before the production comes to town. The play runs for a week in late July.

 

[TeeterTots]

Yay, how awesome! Good luck to G! What a star!

 

[SarahDisney]

Let me know when it's time for me to go see Gigi on Broadway

 

[FFigawi]

Always with the good advise! The pair I wore for our 10k last year were very new but broken in and they felt great on race day. I'm going to reverse engineer and see which date I started with them since I have that in my garmin data and in strava. Ok, so I put 32.13 miles on them prior to our 5.9+ mile "10k" Those puppies are basically about retired now. I only drag them out on easier shorty days or when the roads are kinda gross since they are all black (yes, I'm a girl who doesn't like her pretty shoes getting dirty.)
So now I know I can wait for quite some time before bringing the new pair into the fold.
Think two pairs rotating until then seems ok. Both on the fairly newer side. Or do I need to go shopping again? #enabling

Adding my $0.02 here...you should be fine rotating two pairs during your training period. I start my second pair in rotation when pair #1 hits 250 miles. When it hits 350 or otherwise lets me know it’s worn out, I retire pair #1 and stick with pair #2. Pair #3, my race day shoes, gets brought out 2 weeks before race day for my last long run. I like to have the race distance on my shoes before using them in the race.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Yay, how awesome! Good luck to G! What a star!

Let me know when it's time for me to go see Gigi on Broadway

How crazy would that be!

 

[ZellyB]

Good luck to G!!

 

[jennamfeo]

After I read your post about G, I asked Bay if she would want to be on TV or a commercial and she was like NO WAY MOM. Hahahaha.

Go G, Go!!!!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Good luck to G!!

Thanks!

After I read your post about G, I asked Bay if she would want to be on TV or a commercial and she was like NO WAY MOM. Hahahaha.

Go G, Go!!!!

That's funny! Different strokes for different folks for sure! She's come to the realization she wants to be lots of things in life: painter, astronaut, princess, crossing guard, etc. And then she decided she should be an actress because she gets to be all those things.

 

[canglim52]

Thanks!



That's funny! Different strokes for different folks for sure! She's come to the realization she wants to be lots of things in life: painter, astronaut, princess, crossing guard, etc. And then she decided she should be an actress because she gets to be all those things.

Haha that is the best!! I love that you aren’t pushing her, she seems to love this