WARNING: few minutes late to ADR where they charge a no-show fee you may be charged

[clanmcculloch]

Nala, I hope it's incompetence as well. And though I'm not one to suspect Disney of hatching a nefarious plot every time they make a mistake, this one makes me skeptical.

1. I hope we find out that the computer system is assessing that fee IMMEDIATELY upon a reservation time expiring...not because it makes a lick of sense to charge a customer FORTY DOLLARS for being a minute late, but because that at least is a mistake a rookie software engineer might make. If it's programmed for 5 minutes, we can do nothing but assume that it was deliberate.

2. This "glitch" could be solved one of two ways - either by extending the fee assessment time to 20 or 30 minutes after the actual reservation time or by automatically reversing the charge once the guests check in. Unless Disney has the worst development environment on the planet or they've hired completely incompetent programmers, this kind of fix should be fairly straight-forward. And it makes me think that unfortunately, Disney is in no hurry to fix the issue.

3. The proper way for Disney to handle this would be to reverse the charges for all guests that actually checked in. Because if they don't then they will have knowingly charged some guests both the fee AND for their meal. This is unpalatable to me.

1. As a programmer, while I do agree that this is REALLY bad understanding of the business, I won't go as far as to say that a fee being charged after 5 minutes late is definitely a money grab; it could be an example of not understanding the reality of checking in for ADRs. Requirements definitions are funny things and if you've got a technical person writing specs, they may see it as "charge when somebody isn't there but make sure allow for late arrivals" and assume that 5 minutes really is enough. I've seen some REALLY bad specs in my time and back when I was junior developer I wouldn't have necessarily had the nerve to question business decisions which I now understand (but didn't at the time) are often being made by the wrong people (technical people rather than business people).

2. I think history has shown us that Disney is more likely to change policy to match poorly designed systems rather than change systems to meet policy. It's much faster to change policy. Disney is not the only company by any stretch of the imagination to make this exceedingly annoying business decision and definitely won't be the last.

3. The biggest problem is that the system has historically been really bad at finding ADRs. How many times can an ADR be found only by name and not number or only by number and not name? I'm betting that what's happening is that the database has some breaks in some kind of relationship and while one table is marked as checked in, another is left untouched. This makes it look to the process that does the charges as though the person has not checked in. The bug seems to be in the underlying system and I believe has been a bug for a looooooong time which brings me back to my answer to #2.

I don't think this is some kind of underhanded money grab. I think this is another in a long line of knee-jerk decisions which have been made more on emotion than full business analysis of a problem followed by extremely poor implementation. I try to assume that motives for things in general are genuinely good even if the end result is bad. It keeps me from getting bitter.

 

[cmurray234]

1. As a programmer, while I do agree that this is REALLY bad understanding of the business, I won't go as far as to say that a fee being charged after 5 minutes late is definitely a money grab; it could be an example of not understanding the reality of checking in for ADRs. Requirements definitions are funny things and if you've got a technical person writing specs, they may see it as "charge when somebody isn't there but make sure allow for late arrivals" and assume that 5 minutes really is enough. I've seen some REALLY bad specs in my time and back when I was junior developer I wouldn't have necessarily had the nerve to question business decisions which I now understand (but didn't at the time) are often being made by the wrong people (technical people rather than business people).

Ordinarily I would agree. Requirements are often so poorly written that a software engineer would have to be a mind reader to get it right. In this case however, a specification of 5 minutes is very precise and seemingly deliberate. And if I'm wrong and it's just catastrophic incompetence, that's not really much better. As far as it being a "cash grab"...Disney is in the business of making money. Of COURSE it's a cash grab.

2. I think history has shown us that Disney is more likely to change policy to match poorly designed systems rather than change systems to meet policy. It's much faster to change policy. Disney is not the only company by any stretch of the imagination to make this exceedingly annoying business decision and definitely won't be the last.

a sad commentary on any business, really...but you're completely correct.

3. The biggest problem is that the system has historically been really bad at finding ADRs. How many times can an ADR be found only by name and not number or only by number and not name? I'm betting that what's happening is that the database has some breaks in some kind of relationship and while one table is marked as checked in, another is left untouched. This makes it look to the process that does the charges as though the person has not checked in. The bug seems to be in the underlying system and I believe has been a bug for a looooooong time which brings me back to my answer to #2.

I respectfully disagree that this is the biggest problem. It IS a problem...but in this instance, the reservation system is doing exactly what it was programmed to do. The problem doesn't appear to be that a person was never checked in, the problem is that as the software is written, guests can both get charged a $40 no-show fee and minutes later to check in, be seated and charged for a $140 meal. Even under the loosest definition, I'd consider this a cash grab, deliberate or no.

I don't think this is some kind of underhanded money grab. I think this is another in a long line of knee-jerk decisions which have been made more on emotion than full business analysis of a problem followed by extremely poor implementation. I try to assume that motives for things in general are genuinely good even if the end result is bad. It keeps me from getting bitter.

I don't think that Disney actually sat down with a business model built around double-charging customers...but the fact that this VERY serious breech of customer service protocol has not, it seems, been fixed quickly and with many apologies lends itself back to that cash-grab thing again.

And I'm definitely NOT bitter.

 

[clanmcculloch]

I hope you know I wasn't trying to imply that anybody here IS bitter; I was just making a comment about how I know I could easily become bitter if I allow myself to go down that road.

I honestly do believe that it appears in the system as though the person didn't check in, not that the system sees the checkin and charges anyway. I really do think it's just a baaaaaaadly written system in so many ways, not that the system is coded to intentionally issue a charge for something that is marked as not chargeable.

I do agree that by not fixing this quickly, it is a demonstration of the worst kind of customer service and even ethics. I just think it still all goes back to really bad business decisions and management. I really don't think that the people who prioritize the IT work to be done honestly have a clue just how big of an impact this is making on guests and how bad this appears. Again, I choose to wear my rose coloured glasses and assume that intent is generally good. You can't believe how hard that is for me at times; it is a VERY deliberate decision that goes against the natural grain for me.

 

[cmurray234]

I hope you know I wasn't trying to imply that anybody here IS bitter; I was just making a comment about how I know I could easily become bitter if I allow myself to go down that road.

Quite. It helps me to remember that this type of thing is not personal..it's just (bad) business.

I honestly do believe that it appears in the system as though the person didn't check in, not that the system sees the checkin and charges anyway. I really do think it's just a baaaaaaadly written system in so many ways, not that the system is coded to intentionally issue a charge for something that is marked as not chargeable.

Ah. I wasn't suggesting that it was written that way on purpose. That would be tantamount to fraud and Disney simply isn't that stupid. I'm simply saying that this isn't a system glitch...I'd consider this more a fatal programming flaw.

I do agree that by not fixing this quickly, it is a demonstration of the worst kind of customer service and even ethics. I just think it still all goes back to really bad business decisions and management. I really don't think that the people who prioritize the IT work to be done honestly have a clue just how big of an impact this is making on guests and how bad this appears. Again, I choose to wear my rose coloured glasses and assume that intent is generally good. You can't believe how hard that is for me at times; it is a VERY deliberate decision that goes against the natural grain for me.

This is where I get skeptical again. I'd like to believe that this is simply a disconnect between IT, Disney dining and whoever runs customer relations, but this is an awfully big problem to go on for days with a company RENOWNED for its customer service. I cannot think of any feasible excuse for it except that it's not a high priority for them.

 

[cmurray234]

Incidentally, I've been stuck on the monorail for 45 minutes on my way from Magic Kingdom to an O'hana ADR. It made me late by a half an hour. I would be VERY put out if I got charged $40 for an issue I had no control over.

 

[Colleen27]

I do agree that by not fixing this quickly, it is a demonstration of the worst kind of customer service and even ethics. I just think it still all goes back to really bad business decisions and management. I really don't think that the people who prioritize the IT work to be done honestly have a clue just how big of an impact this is making on guests and how bad this appears. Again, I choose to wear my rose coloured glasses and assume that intent is generally good. You can't believe how hard that is for me at times; it is a VERY deliberate decision that goes against the natural grain for me.

I agree. I was in IT, not on the programming end but far enough up the help desk ladder that I had some contact with the programmers/developers of our agency-specific software, and communication issues were a BIG issue. You have programmers who don't know one thing about how policy applies in real-world applications and suits who take those real world applications so for granted that they think things like grace periods are just a given and don't need to be explicitly stated. And what you get is software written in a vacuum that isn't subjected to real-world type testing until it is rolled out for use.

In Disney's case, you have the added complexity of a system that uses one field to check for conflicts (and presumably assess fees) but another to check guests in. The hostess looks your ADR up by name but it is the phone number you attach to your ADR that establishes your unique record. That allows a lot of potential for legitimate errors, either because of multiple guests with the same surname or the hostess simply checking in the wrong party (and with the volume level at most Disney resorts, who can blame a hostess who might mishear a name?).

I don't believe that any of these errors are intentional. I do believe they're reflective of Disney's corporate arrogance and the declining importance they place on customer service.

 

[Colleen27]

This is where I get skeptical again. I'd like to believe that this is simply a disconnect between IT, Disney dining and whoever runs customer relations, but this is an awfully big problem to go on for days with a company RENOWNED for its customer service. I cannot think of any feasible excuse for it except that it's not a high priority for them.

I don't think that customer service is as high a priority on the corporate level as it once was, and I'm not sure it has ever been a priority in their IT operations. This is a major global company that maintains an extensive web site which doesn't function properly in a number of major browsers, both full featured and mobile, and their approach to that reality has in effect been a stubborn/arrogant "So they'll have to use IE if they want to use our site".

And increasingly I think we're seeing that same attitude in other aspects of their operations - when per-guest spending fell in the wake of the precipitous decline in theme park merchandise variety and quality, the response wasn't to improve the merchandise line-up to entice guests to buy; it was to raise prices to bring spending back up. Key services at the resorts have been outsourced, resulting in many customer service complaints, but there's no indication that Disney is reconsidering that decision. Dining menus have been streamlined and Americanized to innumerable complaints, but Disney continues that trend while raising prices. Everything they do these days points to a company acting on the core assumption that people will ultimately overlook any complaint or shortcoming because of the uniqueness of the Disney brand and Disney parks product.

 

[maxiesmom]

Incidentally, I've been stuck on the monorail for 45 minutes on my way from Magic Kingdom to an O'hana ADR. It made me late by a half an hour. I would be VERY put out if I got charged $40 for an issue I had no control over.

As Disney is very aware when they have monorail breakdowns, I would bet you would not be charged. I know a couple of years ago we were late to an ADR and the CM at check in told us they were holding tables way past when they would usually turn them, as they knew they were having monorail problems that morning.

Colleen--I thought I saw a post not too long ago about how Disney was phasing back in resort specific merchandise. Is that not true? I for one miss being able to buy a mug or tee shirt with a specific resort's name on it. I was hopfull that the merchandise selection was improving.

 

[Colleen27]

As Disney is very aware when they have monorail breakdowns, I would bet you would not be charged. I know a couple of years ago we were late to an ADR and the CM at check in told us they were holding tables way past when they would usually turn them, as they knew they were having monorail problems that morning.

Colleen--I thought I saw a post not too long ago about how Disney was phasing back in resort specific merchandise. Is that not true? I for one miss being able to buy a mug or tee shirt with a specific resort's name on it. I was hopfull that the merchandise selection was improving.

Except right now it is looking like the front line CMs have little to do with the fee; either the party is checked in and the computer doesn't flag for a charge or the party isn't and the system automatically assesses it. There has not yet been a single report of it being waived under any circumstances for any reason, and a few reports have given the impression that it is simply not something podium CMs are capable of or permitted to do. If that is the case that's something that would have to be taken up the line to guest services even for reasons that Disney can readily verify.

I've seen posts about the rumored return of resort merchandise from time to time but so far it all seems to be hearsay from gift shop CMs. Other than a handful of select items (pins mostly, but a little more at deluxe resorts) I have yet to see any reports that it is actually happening, and with so much of the park merchandise now being generic "Disney Parks" and sold on both coasts I just don't see them moving towards specialized selection at the resorts.

 

[BWVPam]

We have never experienced a problem being late except once. My husband lost our park tickets and we spent 2 hours getting them reissued. We got to Epcot just in time to catch show at 9. Went by restaurant and told them what happened and they brought us out fish and chips for everyone on the house. A nice way to end a very stressful trip. Also it was the first day I always carry copies of our tickets now

 

[NLD]

I don't believe that any of these errors are intentional. I do believe they're reflective of Disney's corporate arrogance and the declining importance they place on customer service.
__________________

Bingo.

Edited to add: I will also add, though, that I don't think all cast members have a corporate arrogance or declining concern for customer service. The majority of cast members are great. It's the corporate, up-the-ladder suits.

 

[AJ1983]

My point is:

So it is ok for the restaurant to be running late, but myself as a guest cant be Things happen, I dont mind a cutoff time frame, like 15-20 minutes, but FIVE minutes is ridiculous.

To be fair, reservations are not just for the customer's benefit of securing a table, with the freedom to show up "approximately" on time. The purpose is also to assist restaurant staff to ensure they have enough staff for the evening, and that the orders are staggered so the chef doesn't have to prepare meals for 20 tables, all at 8 pm. For example, if you make a reservation for 7:00 for 10 people, and you show up at 7:30, well you just ran into the other reservation they have at 7:30 for 10 people. That means the people who showed up on time will receive slower service and they may understandably be upset. I would assume that the no show charge is to ensure people take the reservation time seriously so things can run smoothly for all customers, or possibly it may be a way for them to recoup some of the money they would have made on alcohol and dessert if the people who waited an hour for their table didn't leave early in annoyance haha

I agree 5 minutes is a bit ridiculous...unless one person arrives 5 minutes late, and the other guests are 20 minutes late. If you couldn't guess, I worked as a server for 6 years and encountered this problem several times during our busy Christmas seasons, which was the only time this policy was enforced. And we only charged $10 pp if there was less than 24 hours notice, not if they just showed up late (though that sucked for us and the other customers)

 

[Snurk71]

Haven't checked in on this in a while, and I'm disapponted reading that the problem has not been rectified yet. If the code correction is a big deal (say, moving to end of day batch processing is the fix and it's a major change), a good service-oriented business would suspend the charging immediately and not charge anyone for a missed or late ADR until they had the correct program in place to ensure that no one would be mis-charged. These are the kinds of businesses that get my loyalty for a looooong time. Disney used to view customer service in this light - not anymore.

 

[Colleen27]

I noticed something interesting today that was mentioned on one of these long threads about the new policy. There was speculation that one of the reasons for the change might be to allow guests to use the advertised "dining reservations" feature of the Mobile Magic app... I just loaded MM to my phone and in poking around I discovered that the CC guarantee restaurants can't be booked from the app. It returns a message to call for availability. So clearly MM didn't factor into the need to open up more tables at the high-demand restaurants, because now you can't book any of the effected venues from the mobile app at all!

 

[Marshay]

I noticed something interesting today that was mentioned on one of these long threads about the new policy. There was speculation that one of the reasons for the change might be to allow guests to use the advertised "dining reservations" feature of the Mobile Magic app... I just loaded MM to my phone and in poking around I discovered that the CC guarantee restaurants can't be booked from the app. It returns a message to call for availability. So clearly MM didn't factor into the need to open up more tables at the high-demand restaurants, because now you can't book any of the effected venues from the mobile app at all!

Thanks for that head's up. I was going to try MM this January trip.

Does it still list the restaurant openings at CCG places? so you could check on-line and then call if you really it...

 

[Colleen27]

Thanks for that head's up. I was going to try MM this January trip.

Does it still list the restaurant openings at CCG places? so you could check on-line and then call if you really it...

It sorts into available and unavailable but without any specific times listed. Where the open times would be for a non CCG location it just says "Call 407 whatever to book your reservation". The same is true of their mobile web site. So the CCG jas seriously undermined the convenience of online/app based booking for last minute ADRs; now if you want Chef Mickey for tomorrow night you can use your smartphone to see that it is available but won't know unless/until you take the time to navigate the WDW-DINE phone system whether it is at an acceptable time.

I'll have a full review of MM in my TR but that's going to come too late to help you. It is a bit clunky to navigate on my bottom of the line Android but I like the idea of being able to check character wait times and I'm curious to see what features pop up in-park based on the GPS system. I also picked up the Undercover Tourist app, which I think is more visually appealing, and Lines from the Unofficial Guide which I used (via their mobile site) on our last trip. I've had an Android phone for all of about 28 hours so I'm very amused by it right now.

 

[Marshay]

It sorts into available and unavailable but without any specific times listed. Where the open times would be for a non CCG location it just says "Call 407 whatever to book your reservation". The same is true of their mobile web site. So the CCG jas seriously undermined the convenience of online/app based booking for last minute ADRs; now if you want Chef Mickey for tomorrow night you can use your smartphone to see that it is available but won't know unless/until you take the time to navigate the WDW-DINE phone system whether it is at an acceptable time.

I'll have a full review of MM in my TR but that's going to come too late to help you. It is a bit clunky to navigate on my bottom of the line Android but I like the idea of being able to check character wait times and I'm curious to see what features pop up in-park based on the GPS system. I also picked up the Undercover Tourist app, which I think is more visually appealing, and Lines from the Unofficial Guide which I used (via their mobile site) on our last trip. I've had an Android phone for all of about 28 hours so I'm very amused by it right now.

Thanks for all the info. Yeah, I've done Lines/UG on my phone for the last two trips and liked it...but they don't have Character info or dining.

I just need to play around, too, with it.

Too bad MM doesn't have dining times -- that's the most important piece of info ... who cares if they have availability but it's only at 9:30pm at night, ya know?

 

[DisneyFamily123]

1) As long as you go up and check-in, you should be fine.
2) If you didn't/don't check-in on time, then it should be your fault.

How about when you arrive for Ohana dinner 15 minutes early and it takes 30 minutes just to get through the line to get to the check-in podium. Our last experience checking in at Ohana was a nightmare... and I've seen the line to check-in extending all the way back to the doors to the monorail!