Splash Mountain to become Princess and the Frog ride

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I'm glad you responded to this.

The point that essentially brings up is do we get rid of the offensive aspects of Splash Mountain (SoS, Uncle Remus) while keeping the cute animals and West African cultural heritage of Bre'r Rabbit or do we just get rid of all of it. And you can see how this applies to Apu and Simpsons. Is it enough just to get rid of the offensive/racist material or revoice him with an Indian American actor or do we have to cancel and remove the whole show?

IMO, and I mentioned this more succinctly in a post a while back is you keep Splash Mountain, but you have a West African pavilion at Splash Moutain where West African cast members can explain the history and stories of Bre'r Rabbit as well as a pavilion on slavery and how the Bre'r Rabbit stories were corrupted by the white guy's Uncle Remus novels and SoS versions of it as well as how Bre'r Rabbit was used as a form of rebellion by the slaves against the white slave masters who tried to eradicate all culture/education/and linkage West Africa.


FWIW, here's their answer to this question:

"'The Simpsons' will no longer have white actors play non-white characters."

As for the pavilion/teaching opportunity idea, I think that'd be best served in Epcot or on Disney+.
the Magic Kingdom/a log flume ride is not the venue for a serious dialogue about those topics.

I love the OG Splash and I'll miss it for nostalgic reasons, but if we're gonna ever see the Disney Br'er critters again it's almost certainly going to have to be in a new, respectfully done medium, led by BIPOC.
 
Imagine having this conversation with a kid. We are changing your ride because it’s racist. The kid pulls up the video of the ride on YouTube and watches it. The kid looks at the parents and says: okay. Now, what exactly was that kid’s take away? This is going to make for awkward conversations since you can’t pop in the DVD and explain it.
I can’t speak for others, but I don’t talk to my kids about difficult topics like racism by pulling up YouTube videos and leaving it to them to figure out the rest. My son learned about the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII because we went through a Smithsonian exhibit and discussed it afterwards. My 5th grade teacher lived in one of those concentration camps, so I learned about it when I was 10.

I'm not sure I follow. I apologize.

If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying "We are changing your ride because it's racist" - kid watches POV video of the ride on YouTube - kid says okay.

I don't have kids, so I don't know how exactly I would approach it with them, but I would hope there would be more dialogue around it than what you've outlined here? Would it be uncomfortable dialogue? Of course. It's an uncomfortable subject. But "Hey, your ride's racist so it's changing" shouldn't be the way to broach the subject, in my unqualified-as-I'm-not-a-parent opinion.

I have four kids ages 8-17 and I fully endorse your opinion.

If your child does not understand what racism is, then I suggest teaching them.

Exactly! Over the last few weeks, everyone in my family has discussed racism, including my 8-year-old. We’ve also discussed LGBTQ rights after the Supreme Court’s recent decision in Bostock. My daughter’s reaction when I said some people don’t like other people because of the color of their skin or because they're boys who like boys, she said, “that’s rude!” Kids get it, the adults are the problem.

I look at my Millennial/ gen z kids all the time and think “The kids are gonna be alright”
They are so much more understanding and open minded and willing to at least hear things out.

I told my 17-year-old, who loves Splash Mountain, about the ride changing and she said “good, it’s racist as [fill in your favorite epithet].” We’ve never had a single discussion about SOTS, but we’ve had a lot of good discussions about racism and the ugliness of our country’s history, particularly over the last few weeks.

That's one option but not the only option.

Not sure why you want to erase history or pretend things didn't happen.

Does anyone really believe history is accurately portrayed through the lens of a theme park ride? Honestly, it took Disney how long to take Lance Armstrong out of the photo montage in American Adventure? The faux outrage is wearing thin at this point.
 
Well, maybe, but I don't think there would be as many film versions afterward if not for hte Disney version. There may have still been balets, but well....

I think it would've done just fine. I still think Ever After is the superior Cinderella movie.
I remember as a kid thinking which fairy tale they should do next. Rapunzel and the Snow Queen were on that list. The fairy tales were doing just fine.
 
That's one option but not the only option.

Not sure why you want to erase history or pretend things didn't happen.

This is just ridiculous. That's like saying we "erased history" when Disney pulled Captain EO or closed Stitch's Great Escape. This is a Disney ride based on a Disney movie based on a book based on folktales. Disney is removing its own IP from the park. The book and folktales remain. Disney does not create "museums" to explain their outdated rides and attractions. Are you outraged they never made a ride from Jungle Book? Did we somehow "erase" Indian fables because they aren't represented in a ride in a theme park? Did we erase history when Mr. Toad's Wild Ride closed? Snow White? Were you outraged when the "erased" Norwegian history and culture in the Norway pavilion and replaced it with a Danish fairytale?

Pulling the "Disneyfied" version of a folktale does not erase the folktale. If you are really interested in keeping these tales alive, then go buy a book of West African folktales. There are plenty of them. We really don't need history and culture to be strained through Disney and then spoon-fed to us in order to keep it alive. If Disney is where you expect all of us to get an education we are in serious, serious trouble.

If everyone who has every ridden, or even known about Splash Mountain suddenly loses their memories of the rides existence by a mind erasing machine that Disney has made themselves, then, and only then could you have an argument that Disney is “erasing history”.

The book would have to disappear and people would have to lose their memories of the actual folk tales as well.
 
I think there was nothing racist in the splash mountain ride. I frankly did not see color in any of the characters in the ride. I saw childhood memories of a very enjoyable time that has spanned many generations of my family. Every time we “pc” something else due to some ones desire to be outraged over a very benign piece of the American lexicon, we lose some very fine memories for a lot of people. I find that sad. America has its historical warts, but on the whole it is and has been a group of people trying to find fairness for all and freedom for all, sometimes very painfully. I think tearing down history dooms us to repeat it and lose what makes us great. The changes in pirates and now splash mountain next will be its a small world, I am truly saddened..... well maybe not changing it’s a small world.

perhaps you should read up on not only the movie, also the song. The song was influenced by an extremely offensive song. This is not merely a “benign” piece of the American lexicon, it is steeped in offensive material. America has more than historical warts, and it has hardly been a group of people trying to find fairness for all and freedom for all. This is a very romanticized view of years of oppression and inequality.
 
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I told my 17-year-old, who loves Splash Mountain, about the ride changing and she said “good, it’s racist as [fill in your favorite epithet].” We’ve never had a single discussion about SOTS, but we’ve had a lot of good discussions about racism and the ugliness of our country’s history, particularly over the last few weeks.

As a mom of 4 kids as well, 20yo to 9yo, I'm curious what your child ever noticed in Splash that made them see racism? I am legitimately interested. I'm guessing if you've never had a single discussion about SOTS, then they have not seen the movie. So, what exactly is it about the attraction that made them think it was racist?? Again, seriously interested as we are a very open family in regards to racism discussions as well.

I grew up in SE TX in a sundown city. I went to bed with the fear of many things. I know racism well. Like the back of my hand and like the air I breathe. Splash has not a hint of that to me and my kids have never said anything despite tons of convo.
 
If everyone who has every ridden, or even known about Splash Mountain suddenly loses their memories of the rides existence by a mind erasing machine that Disney has made themselves, then, and only then could you have an argument that Disney is “erasing history”.

It's not very nice to make fun of people who like Splash Mountain. They all are human beings with feelings too.
 
perhaps you should read up on not only the movie, also the song. The song was influenced by an extremely offensive song. This is not merely a “benign” piece of the American lexicon, it is steeped in offensive material. America has more than historical warts, and it has hardly been a group of people trying to find fairness for all and freedom for all. This is a very romanticized view of years of oppression and inequality.

There is a such thing as taking something that was once bad and turning it to good. I'm sure Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah has brightened millions (probably billions) of people's days over the years and years. The song and ride as is are not offensive.
 
I normally just read these forums without posting, but I made an account because I felt something was worth clearing up here. Some people in this thread keep mentioning that B'rer Rabbit is a "West African" folktale figure. This isn't quite right. It's true that elements of the B'rer Rabbit stories share story elements with the stories of Anansi the Spider, but they are not the same stories. For instance, in one Anansi story, Anansi captures a fairy by making a baby doll and coating it with gum, and the fairy gets mad at the baby and slaps it like B'rer Fox, but otherwise the context of the story is different. Ansasi has to capture the fairy as part of a series of tasks, kind of like Hercules. B'rer Rabbit makes the tar baby to escape from B'rer Fox, who is always trying to eat him. The way the baby works plays out similarly in both stories, and there's certainly some overlap, but the B'rer Rabbit stories aren't just the old Anansi stories with new characters.

When people from Africa were taken and sold into slavery as chattels, those who were from cultures where the Anansi stories were told probably shared those stories, and over the hundreds of years that they and their descendants were kept in chattel slavery, those stories probably morphed into the B'rer Rabbit stories. (I say "probably" because we do not have a great written record of these stories or other elements of the culture of enslaved Africans in America during this time, largely due to the fact that the people telling these stories were treated as property).

Those stories were first published by Joel Chandler Harris, in his book "The Tales of Uncle Remus." I'm not an expert here, but I think most people who study these things are pretty sure that Joel Chandler Harris really did get these stories from interviews with people, and didn't just make up the character of B'rer Rabbit himself.

We call the rabbit "B'rer Rabbit" because that's how Joel Chandler Harris thought it sounded when Black people said the word "brother." In "The Tales of Uncle Remus," Harris's book in which these stories were published for the first time, the narrator and the white child who befriends Uncle Remus talk like this:

"'Uncle Remus,' said the little boy one evening, when he had found the old man with little or nothing to do, 'did the fox kill and eat the rabbit when he caught him with the Tar-Baby?'"

But Joel Chandler Harris wrote Uncle Remus's dialogue in a way that he thought Black people talked, so Uncle Remus sounds like this when he responds to the boy's question above:

"Law, honey, ain't I tell you 'bout dat"I 'clar ter grashus I ought er tole you dat, but ole man Nod wuz ridin' on my eyelids twel a leetle mo'n I'd a dis'member'd my own name, en den on to dat here come yo' mammy hollerin' atter you. W'at I tell you w'en I fus' begin? I tole you Brer Rabbit wuz a monstus soon beas'; leas'ways dat's w'at I laid out fer ter tell you."

So all of this is just to say that I don't think "West African Cultural Ambassadors" would be very good at explaining the stories of B'rer Rabbit, unless maybe they had seen Song of the South or read the Joel Chandler Harris stories.
 
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As a mom of 4 kids as well, 20yo to 9yo, I'm curious what your child ever noticed in Splash that made them see racism? I am legitimately interested. I'm guessing if you've never had a single discussion about SOTS, then they have not seen the movie. So, what exactly is it about the attraction that made them think it was racist?? Again, seriously interested as we are a very open family in regards to racism discussions as well.

I grew up in SE TX in a sundown city. I went to bed with the fear of many things. I know racism well. Like the back of my hand and like the air I breathe. Splash has not a hint of that to me and my kids have never said anything despite tons of convo.
The attraction itself is not racist in the least. People are just looking for a fight and a reason to be offended.
 
Come on folks. It's all about optics right now. The story is tied to a movie that wasnt handled right in the 40's (corrected this older than I thought)where the original stories were two poor white kids who fall in love with a fatherly figure who told stories that taught them good lessons. In the end it turned out to be a couple of rich kids and a poor black guy and the overtone was bad. It had issues from the get go. Right now all major corporations are bending over backward to show support and scrutinize there product. The optics are bad....yank it and put in something that overtly gives the black community a presence in the rides. Its business and they answer to one call.... meet Wall Street's expectations. Good or bad all this going down a rabbit hole (no pun intended) is fruitless. I love the stories. The ride is a ride and I would hate to be Tony Baxter who is having to rework a ride that he conceived that is now deemed racist. that would be sad to me.
 
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When we were there last my kids were likely the only ones on the ride who had seen the film and knew where the characters were from. They also love Tiana so I'm sure whenever it is we are able to return they'll enjoy that too. I'll miss hearing "How Do You Do?" for sure though.
I know this is going to sound lame but in all the times we’ve been to Disney World the two rides I’ve never been on are Splash Mountain and Kali River Rapids. (Yes I’m one of those who doesn’t want to get my hair wet. ). My kids love splash mountain - as does my husband -but I never realized it was based on a film? Which one?
We are supposed to be going late July into August so if it is still open by then I will have to make the exception and ride it for sure! Will certainly be looking forward to a new Tiana ride! We adore the Princess s and the Frog and hope to see some delicious beignets at MK as well!
 
To be fair the second iteration was worse than the current one.
That's what I'm talking about. They completely ruined that ride, not once, but twice! Not to mention Horizons and for me, even World of Motion. Not all of their changes are the greatest.
 
I know this is going to sound lame but in all the times we’ve been to Disney World the two rides I’ve never been on are Splash Mountain and Kali River Rapids. (Yes I’m one of those who doesn’t want to get my hair wet. ).
Are you Theresa Caputo? hehehe!
 

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FWIW, here's their answer to this question:

"'The Simpsons' will no longer have white actors play non-white characters."

As for the pavilion/teaching opportunity idea, I think that'd be best served in Epcot or on Disney+.
the Magic Kingdom/a log flume ride is not the venue for a serious dialogue about those topics.

I love the OG Splash and I'll miss it for nostalgic reasons, but if we're gonna ever see the Disney Br'er critters again it's almost certainly going to have to be in a new, respectfully done medium, led by BIPOC.
RIP voice over actors.
 
As a mom of 4 kids as well, 20yo to 9yo, I'm curious what your child ever noticed in Splash that made them see racism? I am legitimately interested. I'm guessing if you've never had a single discussion about SOTS, then they have not seen the movie. So, what exactly is it about the attraction that made them think it was racist?? Again, seriously interested as we are a very open family in regards to racism discussions as well.

I grew up in SE TX in a sundown city. I went to bed with the fear of many things. I know racism well. Like the back of my hand and like the air I breathe. Splash has not a hint of that to me and my kids have never said anything despite tons of convo.
She meant the movie itself. I really wasn’t clear about that one, I’m sorry. I’m sure I mentioned at some point to her what movie the ride was based on but we never really had a discussion about it. She read about it on her own and concluded the movie was racist, so it doesn’t bother her that the theme is changing. I think the point I was trying to make was that kids can figure it out on their own, but I bumbled it a bit.
I went on Splash exactly once when it first opened in DL (I really hate drops). My kids finally convinced me to give it another try decades later and I do really enjoy it now. The music is more in the background, and I didn’t really notice it much. But after I downloaded the Parks music (because I’m a complete Disney dork), the stylized patois of the characters became so glaring to me. The music was newly recorded when the ride was built, so the accents were clearly intentional.
 
There is a such thing as taking something that was once bad and turning it to good. I'm sure Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah has brightened millions (probably billions) of people's days over the years and years. The song and ride as is are not offensive.

When something that is racially insensitive and offensive is tweaked slightly and “turned to good” - the underlying offense still exists within the community. Simply because you may not find the current iteration offensive because you may not understand the reasons or ways that it may be offensive to others, does not make it any less offensive.
 
This is just ridiculous. That's like saying we "erased history" when Disney pulled Captain EO or closed Stitch's Great Escape. This is a Disney ride based on a Disney movie based on a book based on folktales. Disney is removing its own IP from the park. The book and folktales remain. Disney does not create "museums" to explain their outdated rides and attractions. Are you outraged they never made a ride from Jungle Book? Did we somehow "erase" Indian fables because they aren't represented in a ride in a theme park? Did we erase history when Mr. Toad's Wild Ride closed? Snow White? Were you outraged when the "erased" Norwegian history and culture in the Norway pavilion and replaced it with a Danish fairytale?

Pulling the "Disneyfied" version of a folktale does not erase the folktale. If you are really interested in keeping these tales alive, then go buy a book of West African folktales. There are plenty of them. We really don't need history and culture to be strained through Disney and then spoon-fed to us in order to keep it alive. If Disney is where you expect all of us to get an education we are in serious, serious trouble.



The book would have to disappear and people would have to lose their memories of the actual folk tales as well.
You can't erase something that was never there in the first place. There was no "Jungle Book" ride.
 
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