Coalition

Coalition?? yea or nay or whatever

  • For the Coalition

  • Against the Coalition

  • Don't care abou the Coalition


Results are only viewable after voting.
The thing about this coalition that scares me the most is the NDP. I am sure deep down inside Jack Layton or realizes the NDP will never win a Federal Election, so he can always make these promises and etc because chances are he won't have to keep them. However if the coalition went into power and I hope they don't, I am sure Jack Layton would be one of the 6 NDP MP's to get a cabinet position and that scares me.
 
But would we see a majority government? Alot of people voted Conservative because Harper was seen as a decisive leader, who would lead us out of this recession, but instead of creating a plan to turn the economic tide, they questioned if we were in a recession. The Conservatives won a minority government, and the only way to make such a government effective is to work with the other parties, but Harper ignored the issues, and decided to arrogantly play partisan politics. The poor election results and coalition have cost Dion, Harper's arrogance is costing him. I was a Harper supporter, but my support is gone until I see him take some action to at least attempt to fix the economy. The same arrogance Harper is showing cost Harris/Eves in Ontario, when the public decided to strategically vote to get them out.

I think if the voters are upset enough then yes we would vote a majority in of the current government. Nobody in there right mind would want someone to take over a government without being voted in it's just plain wrong. You said it yourself about other governments "the public decided to vote them out" not take it like a bunch of school yard bullies. We voted these guys in and they need a chance to do the right thing. This recession is way bigger than just Canada and anybody who thinks our government no matter who's is in power is going to fix it by them selves is delousional. This is a world wide problem that has to be taken care of by many countries. As for on the home front issues until the big 3 auto makers come up with a real plan to make things right on there end why should we bail them out. (just so you know all the cars in my family are north american made if you though I was anti big3). Also until there are tarrifs put on goods entering canada we dont have a chance to keep any factory jobs in Canada or USA. The high cost of living demands we have higher salleries and wages and we cannot compete with places like china whos people are being exploited. As for the coalation there griping because our current government want to cut back what each party gets financially and there not happy about that. I persionlly think a cut back at the top is about time.
 
True, our fix will be tied to the USA economy, but at least put a united front on, that the government will work together to find a fix. Harper's first move was utter arrogance, an attempt to drive the wedge deeper. A dissenting parliament (and this ridiculous coalition) will only stall any positive action.
When the country is in trouble, great leaders seize the day, and pull the public together, they don't divide among party lines, or do a power play. McCain showed great class after the American Election, when he called Obama his President, and Obama in turn drew McCain and other Republicans closer. What kind of image does Canada portray in the World, when our government has to adjourn to avoid upheaval? How much faith will Obama have in Harper/Canada?
An idea for rebuilding Canada's Industrial Economy....for starters, work with Obama to toss the Free Trade Agreement with Mexico, and negotiate a mutually beneficial deal with the States. Bail out the Big 3, with certain obligations on their part, half the money goes to a government controlled pension for retired autoworkers, the other half goes to retooling and debt management (with open books for the government). All financial assistance comes with a binding contract, and an understanding that only cars built in Canada can be sold in Canada (The same with the USA). The big 3 will quickly return jobs, when threatened with a loss of 85% of their sales. The 15-20% difference in our dollar, and a more realistic fuel price will make Canada more attractive for the parts industry again.

Having a deal that only cars built in Canada can be sold in Canada won't work simply because of the very few models of cars that are actually built here. It would not be economically feasible to have every make of car fully manufactured in both the US and Canada.
 
Having a deal that only cars built in Canada can be sold in Canada won't work simply because of the very few models of cars that are actually built here. It would not be economically feasible to have every make of car fully manufactured in both the US and Canada.

That's a very valid point. Actually, to be completely accurate, it wouldn't work for either the U.S. or Canada (only cars built in the country sold in that country). Even the Big-3 U.S. automakers don't build all their models in the U.S. - there are some Big-3 factories in Canada that supply a particular model for the U.S. as well as Canada.

If those companies were forced to have factories in both countries building the same model it would result in increased costs at every level - factory setup and maintenance, wages, etc. The amount saved in transportation wouldn't be remotely enough to offset the costs required to duplicate production.

Even if the Big-3 had been required to do this a few years ago during good economic times, they would have either become financially unstable much sooner, or the cost of cars would have skyrocketed. To require this of them now, considering how bad their finances are, would put all three of them out of business almost instantly.

The only time it makes sense to have duplicate production in two (or more) countries is for overseas markets - like the Toyota Corolla being built in Japan and Canada. At that point you have a big enough market to make a second factory more economical than the cost of transporting a large number of vehicles. Further, even this duplication of production for overseas markets usually only happens for lower cost vehicles. There are a number of high-end luxury vehicles that are only made in one factory and then shipped worldwide.

Now, this doesn't mean I'm against promoting Canadian industry and manufacturing to give us the chance to "Buy Canadian" - but for some items, this just isn't realistic.
 
I think if the voters are upset enough then yes we would vote a majority in of the current government. Nobody in there right mind would want someone to take over a government without being voted in it's just plain wrong. You said it yourself about other governments "the public decided to vote them out" not take it like a bunch of school yard bullies. We voted these guys in and they need a chance to do the right thing. This recession is way bigger than just Canada and anybody who thinks our government no matter who's is in power is going to fix it by them selves is delousional. This is a world wide problem that has to be taken care of by many countries. As for on the home front issues until the big 3 auto makers come up with a real plan to make things right on there end why should we bail them out. (just so you know all the cars in my family are north american made if you though I was anti big3). Also until there are tarrifs put on goods entering canada we dont have a chance to keep any factory jobs in Canada or USA. The high cost of living demands we have higher salleries and wages and we cannot compete with places like china whos people are being exploited. As for the coalation there griping because our current government want to cut back what each party gets financially and there not happy about that. I persionlly think a cut back at the top is about time.


Actually Winston Churchill was appointed the first time he was Prime Minister.
 
That's a very valid point. Actually, to be completely accurate, it wouldn't work for either the U.S. or Canada (only cars built in the country sold in that country). Even the Big-3 U.S. automakers don't build all their models in the U.S. - there are some Big-3 factories in Canada that supply a particular model for the U.S. as well as Canada.

If those companies were forced to have factories in both countries building the same model it would result in increased costs at every level - factory setup and maintenance, wages, etc. The amount saved in transportation wouldn't be remotely enough to offset the costs required to duplicate production.

Even if the Big-3 had been required to do this a few years ago during good economic times, they would have either become financially unstable much sooner, or the cost of cars would have skyrocketed. To require this of them now, considering how bad their finances are, would put all three of them out of business almost instantly.

The only time it makes sense to have duplicate production in two (or more) countries is for overseas markets - like the Toyota Corolla being built in Japan and Canada. At that point you have a big enough market to make a second factory more economical than the cost of transporting a large number of vehicles. Further, even this duplication of production for overseas markets usually only happens for lower cost vehicles. There are a number of high-end luxury vehicles that are only made in one factory and then shipped worldwide.

Now, this doesn't mean I'm against promoting Canadian industry and manufacturing to give us the chance to "Buy Canadian" - but for some items, this just isn't realistic.

But the vehicle doesn't have to be 100% built in Canada. As I posted earlier, a set ratio needs to be created (50-60%), the big 3 did alot of this for years, making exhaust manifolds and catalytic converters at Westcast (Wingham, Ontario) and shipping them to plants across North America. Windsor had far more parts plants than assembly plants. Unfortunately they were lured by cheap labour in Mexico, and places such as Westcast has cut 66% of their workforce. They can piece it together in one place, create the parts in another, and not duplicate production. Volvo Heavy Machinery is doing this in Brazil/USA to comply with the made in America clause, doing a portion of the parts manufacturing in Brazil, a portion in Ohio, and assembly in Pennsylvania (at the expense of Volvo/Champion in Ontario- another 600+ jobs as of this spring). Kia/Hyundai can produce the bulk of their parts in Korea, and assemble in Canada.
 
But the vehicle doesn't have to be 100% built in Canada. As I posted earlier, a set ratio needs to be created (50-60%), the big 3 did alot of this for years, making exhaust manifolds and catalytic converters at Westcast (Wingham, Ontario) and shipping them to plants across North America. Windsor had far more parts plants than assembly plants. Unfortunately they were lured by cheap labour in Mexico, and places such as Westcast has cut 66% of their workforce. They can piece it together in one place, create the parts in another, and not duplicate production. Volvo Heavy Machinery is doing this in Brazil/USA to comply with the made in America clause, doing a portion of the parts manufacturing in Brazil, a portion in Ohio, and assembly in Pennsylvania (at the expense of Volvo/Champion in Ontario- another 600+ jobs as of this spring). Kia/Hyundai can produce the bulk of their parts in Korea, and assemble in Canada.

Okay, I misunderstood your original post - the statment that caught my attemtion was fairly general
All financial assistance comes with a binding contract, and an understanding that only cars built in Canada can be sold in Canada (The same with the USA)
so I jumped to a conclusion of totally built in Canada. Sorry.
 
I think if the voters are upset enough then yes we would vote a majority in of the current government. Nobody in there right mind would want someone to take over a government without being voted in it's just plain wrong. You said it yourself about other governments "the public decided to vote them out" not take it like a bunch of school yard bullies. We voted these guys in and they need a chance to do the right thing. This recession is way bigger than just Canada and anybody who thinks our government no matter who's is in power is going to fix it by them selves is delousional. This is a world wide problem that has to be taken care of by many countries. As for on the home front issues until the big 3 auto makers come up with a real plan to make things right on there end why should we bail them out. (just so you know all the cars in my family are north american made if you though I was anti big3). Also until there are tarrifs put on goods entering canada we dont have a chance to keep any factory jobs in Canada or USA. The high cost of living demands we have higher salleries and wages and we cannot compete with places like china whos people are being exploited. As for the coalation there griping because our current government want to cut back what each party gets financially and there not happy about that. I persionlly think a cut back at the top is about time.

About as 'delusional' as thinking the Tories' funding proposal was budget based. This money is miniscule in the grand theme of things, it was an attack on the opposition parties, and attempt to tilt the scale in the Tory favour. Instead of concentrating on our economy, he made an arrogant power play. When the opportunity came to reach out and build co-operation with the new Liberal Leaderb (Ignatieff), the Tories went on the offensive, and attacked the Party and its leader, in an effort to increase funding. You call the coalition (which I have already stated I don't support) childish bullies, how about the mature act of running from the issue.
Yes, the recession is worldwide, but we don't have to (and shouldn't) wait for the World to fix it for us, we should make some moves to shore up OUR economy. It is 'delusional' to think that Obama (insert any other G8 leader) will look to help us, they have their nation to fix. If you read my posts, I actually stated we needed to create a 'Made in Canada' Movement, make it so that a large portion of production has to be done here. One way is through tariffs, another is shutting the doors to 100% foreign product. I also don't agree with throwing money at the Big 3, we need to maintain control of any funding they get, so it creates jobs and stabilizes the industry.
As far as becoming fiscally resposible, starting at the top, how about doing it on the level.........a 20% pay cut for all MPs (save tax payers about $10M), a 25% cut in tax free expenses for MPs (another couple mil). The average household income (2 wage earners) is roughly $80000, the base MP salary is approximately $150000, with an additional $68000 if you hold portfolio (X 39), and $45000 for Party Leaders not in official opposition, increases for party whip, commitee chairs and members (etc) and it doubles for the PM. Harper makes double what Mulroney made 20 years ago. Total MP salaries equal over $50 Million dollars. Add the thousands of pensioned off MPs collecting almost $70000/ year as soon as they hit 55 (who gained their pension after 1 term), and severance packages for those that aren't sucessfully re-elected. Why does our peer in parliament make double our household income? Harper's move had nothing to do with fiscal responsibility, or he would have trimmed his own golden pockets.
 
Okay, I misunderstood your original post - the statment that caught my attemtion was fairly general

so I jumped to a conclusion of totally built in Canada. Sorry.


No prob
Its only an idea.... a start.
 
About as 'delusional' as thinking the Tories' funding proposal was budget based. This money is miniscule in the grand theme of things, it was an attack on the opposition parties, and attempt to tilt the scale in the Tory favour. Instead of concentrating on our economy, he made an arrogant power play. When the opportunity came to reach out and build co-operation with the new Liberal Leaderb (Ignatieff), the Tories went on the offensive, and attacked the Party and its leader, in an effort to increase funding. You call the coalition (which I have already stated I don't support) childish bullies, how about the mature act of running from the issue.
Yes, the recession is worldwide, but we don't have to (and shouldn't) wait for the World to fix it for us, we should make some moves to shore up OUR economy. It is 'delusional' to think that Obama (insert any other G8 leader) will look to help us, they have their nation to fix. If you read my posts, I actually stated we needed to create a 'Made in Canada' Movement, make it so that a large portion of production has to be done here. One way is through tariffs, another is shutting the doors to 100% foreign product. I also don't agree with throwing money at the Big 3, we need to maintain control of any funding they get, so it creates jobs and stabilizes the industry.
As far as becoming fiscally resposible, starting at the top, how about doing it on the level.........a 20% pay cut for all MPs (save tax payers about $10M), a 25% cut in tax free expenses for MPs (another couple mil). The average household income (2 wage earners) is roughly $80000, the base MP salary is approximately $150000, with an additional $68000 if you hold portfolio (X 39), and $45000 for Party Leaders not in official opposition, increases for party whip, commitee chairs and members (etc) and it doubles for the PM. Harper makes double what Mulroney made 20 years ago. Total MP salaries equal over $50 Million dollars. Add the thousands of pensioned off MPs collecting almost $70000/ year as soon as they hit 55 (who gained their pension after 1 term), and severance packages for those that aren't sucessfully re-elected. Why does our peer in parliament make double our household income? Harper's move had nothing to do with fiscal responsibility, or he would have trimmed his own golden pockets.

I agree with most of what you say. I think the cuts that they have proposed is a step in the right direction. It cut more money for there party than the rest if I read the artical correctly. It is a small step but I do agree it is very small and ALOT more needs to be done. I'm not saying let the other countries fix our problems. What i'm tring to say is our government cannot fix the problems themselves and anybody who beleives this is dilusional. They need help, same as the US government and the rest of the world. All the g-8 countries for example need to get together and solve this. Yes our current government could be doing more alot more but they need to make sure they do the right things not just pour money where it does no good like the banking system and the big 3 which havent come up with a viabal solution to there problems. What needs to happen with our country is all parties need to put aside there agendas and try to fix this or at least put us facing the right direction. It seems the coalation is just interested in ousting the current government for persional gain and it has nothing to do with the people like they try to make us beleive. All parties need to work together and say is here are some IDEAS we have and not this is WHAT you must do and if you dont do them we will kick you out. Bully tackics get people nowhere it just puts a wedge in where it's not needed at the moment. All I can say for sure is something needs to be done yesterday before we are to far gone and we loose everything.
 
I agree with most of what you say. I think the cuts that they have proposed is a step in the right direction. It cut more money for there party than the rest if I read the artical correctly.
In terms of the $1.95 per vote funding for federal parties, the main reason cutting this out can be popular with Canadians is that it would stop taxpayer dollars going to the Bloc Quebecois. That may be reasonable, but sometimes you have to accept a little bad for the greater good.

Consider this - $1.95 is per VOTE - with the low voter turnout, the money is less. Period. The 2008 election had the lowest voter turnout in history - less than 15 million Canadians voted. At $1.95 per vote, this saves the federal government less than $30 million. Considering the economic crisis, this is chump change.

Further, while there may be good reason to complain about the funding going to the Bloc, funding also goes to the Green Party - still a fringe party for the most part, but environmental issues are something that we need to consider. If the small amount of funding they get lets them - at least - promote their message, it isn't necessarily a bad thing. I will grant that some consider the environment a minor issue, and therefore believe that this is not a good reason to argue for the continuation of funding.

Finally, in terms of the Conservatives losing the most money from federal funding - that's true. BUT, their party currently has a surplus and could handle losing the money far more easily than any other party. Answer this truthfully - if the Conservative Party was in debt (yet still in power), do you think that they would have proposed eliminating this funding?

What needs to happen with our country is all parties need to put aside there agendas and try to fix this or at least put us facing the right direction. It seems the coalation is just interested in ousting the current government for persional gain and it has nothing to do with the people like they try to make us beleive.
Yes and no. Every party wants to be the ones in charge - the attempt by the coalition to attain power is just as desperate as Harper's suspension of parliament to keep power. At the same time, there is a sense that a party wants power because they honestly believe that they have the best vision for Canada. While the political quest for power definitely has selfish motives, that isn't the only motivation.

All parties need to work together and say is here are some IDEAS we have and not this is WHAT you must do and if you dont do them we will kick you out.
Mostly, yes. Unfortunately, the proposal to eliminate the per vote funding went against everything Harper campaigned about - cooperating for Canada. It was an attempt to essentially crush the Liberal Party - thereby allowing him to gain a strong majority in the next election. We've already seen how egotistical he can be with a minority - a Harper majority is scary. Much as the Chretien government, after far too many years facing a weak opposition, allowed arrogance to take over (resulting in things like Adscam), it wouldn't take long for Harper to become just as bad (and potentially worse). Canada has a history of PM's going off the deep end when they don't face a strong opposition - in only the last couple of decades we can consider Mulroney, Chretien - and, possibly, Harper.

The coalition was a pre-emptive strike - they weren't saying to the Conservatives "do this or we'll kick you out" - they were saying "if we don't stop you from wiping us out as a viable opposition, we won't even have the ability to offer ideas".

Was that a good enough reason to consider taking down the Conservative government - maybe. Really, the threat was enough - when Harper blinked, the coalition should have backed down and said - "okay, maybe now you'll cooperate as a minority government should, with a little give and take".

Bully tackics get people nowhere it just puts a wedge in where it's not needed at the moment.
Yes, but don't assume that the bully tactics were one sided. The proposal to eliminate the funding was the proverbial "kicking sand in the face of the weakling". It was mainly directed at the Liberals (a party in debt with one of the worst leaders in party history), and kicking them when they were down. Only bullys do that.

The coalition decided to gang up on the bully - but when the bully backed off and said he didn't want to fight anymore, the coalition becomes a bully when it chooses to fight anyway.

All I can say for sure is something needs to be done yesterday before we are to far gone and we loose everything.
Something has been done - whether the method of choosing Ignatieff was the best way is irrelevant - the man has said, "a coalition if necessary, but not necessarily a coalition" - and that he won't promise to vote down a budget he hasn't had a chance to read. He's open to working things out.

Harper has also publicly said that he is willing to work with Ignatieff. Great - but if Harper wants to be serious, he needs to stop the Conservative attack machine from sending out fundraising letters questioning Ignatieff's legitimacy as Leader of the Opposition.

Really, the worst of this crisis is over.
 
ESDRAS - once again you post an excellent analysis of the situation. Good job.


I, for one, am tired of hearing Harper say he is willing to work with the Opposition. His definition of working with them is for them to bow down and do it his way. His whole management style is being a bully. He has bullied the opposition, he has bullied his MPs, and anyone else he thinks will meekly take it.
 
Well I was so embarassed to be a Canadian when this school yard brwal out in our government.

But I am so proud that this thread has stayed civil each person respecting one anothers views. Now that to me what makes Canadians special.
 
Esdras - excellent and well thought out post. This may be unpopular, but I for one don't favour the elimination of public financial support of the parties. People have to remember that if the support doesn't come from public coffers then it will come from private ones. The per-vote funding formula for political parties was established after large donations from corporations and unions were banned. Public funding is common in most democracies. It ensures the political process represents all citizens, not just rich donors who can afford to contribute to the party of their choice.

Just my 2 cents worth using the per-vote funding formula. :goodvibes
 
hopefully they will all do what the people elected them for. Serve the people of Canada an wait till the next election
 
I get depressed when I see people angry over this. I think the coalition's a bad idea politically for the parties instituting it, and an overreaction, and I voted "don't care. It's clear a lot of people don't quite understand parliametary politics and are clearly blaming one side or the other when there's enough blame for bad faith politics to go around on all sides of the issue. As soon as someone declares themself all or nothing on one side of this debate, I feel their opinion can safely be ignored as emotion-based thinking and not fit for consideration. That said, I got all my feelings out on my blog last night, and feel no need to go into it further. Especially when people start acting like BS media pundits.

I just hope this crap doesn't ruin my Christmas. Some of family are just a little succeptible to "talking points."


I agree 100% There is more than enough blame to go around, and quite frankly, if you didn't vote, then perhaps you need to be quiet. Lowest voter turnout, and no party even came close to getting a majority of the popular vote. To say the conservatives were voted in is shading the truth just a little.
 
Should have read esdras' comments beofre replying. Well thought out and reasoned. Thanks for that.
 

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