DVC point balancing 2022 vs 2021

The main reason I think there could be more expensive charts is discussion in the main vgf thread that highlights the hotel rooms are larger then current dvc rooms. If they add in these larger rooms with same point charts this will be great addition. I’m skeptical it goes that way because would leave money on table for Disney and they have “justifiable” reason to do it if rooms are larger.
Interesting. I didn’t know that. The only similar situation I can think of is those extra large studios at copper creek. And those are priced the same. I’m kind of surprised they did that. Then, yeah, I bet they will raise the point chart for the new VGF studios.
 
If a raise in points were intended, your suggestion that DVC add the w/d to the new studios would actually be the best "member-friendly" choice that could possibly be made, which, considering how the the modern DVC acts, is likely the last thing that will ever happen.

As an existing VGF owner, I would strenuously object to the incorporation of new rooms with a higher point chart, if those rooms aren't materially superior to the existing studios.

The larger square footage alone may be insufficient to entice bookings, if the new studios cost more points (see AKV Value). But make VGF.02 studios the only studios in the entire system equipped with King beds? Instant creation of material difference between the two classes of studios.

I hope DVD/DVCM keep the point charts the same, or value-add (achievable inexpensively) to justify the premium. Membership trust has suffered enough blows in recent years!
 
Where is the reference to square footage being a determination in points? As often as I've read the POS (ok, maybe it's been a handful of times as it's not nightly reading material) I find there's things I've missed. And I don't quite understand that as a formula since 2BR's take up 3 times the space of studios but they are not 3 times the points.

Exhibit A to the Master Cotenancy Agreement sets out how seasons, ownership interests, total home Resort Vacation points and point charts are created. A demand factor per season and per year is created for each class of vacation home, based on projected probable demand per season and per year. DVD then uses the demand factors created for each type of vacation home to create the total real interests that will apply to the resort and the percentage that will be assigned to any purchasing member.

DVD then determines the total Home Resort Vacation points and the means of setting total per ownership interest, which is to take the percentage ownership interest created and multiply it by the total number of square feet in the unit. In essence, the ultimate determination of number of daily total home resort points, and total in any particular ownership interest, depends on the demand factors created for each type of vacation home and the square footage of the rooms and the units. The more square footage one owns, the more points one gets to use. The base year calendar then spreads the total home resort points throughout the year in each vacation home. Conceptually room square footage is a determinative factor in points per night because that is the relationship DVD has created, i.e., the difference between each owner's ability to reserve a room is defined significantly by the total square footage he can reserve. The differences in points between studios and 1BRs (and other size rooms) is not a perfect square footage difference mainly because those demand factors chosen for each type of vacation home differ.
 
Exhibit A to the Master Cotenancy Agreement sets out how seasons, ownership interests, total home Resort Vacation points and point charts are created. A demand factor per season and per year is created for each class of vacation home, based on projected probable demand per season and per year. DVD then uses the demand factors created for each type of vacation home to create the total real interests that will apply to the resort and the percentage that will be assigned to any purchasing member.

DVD then determines the total Home Resort Vacation points and the means of setting total per ownership interest, which is to take the percentage ownership interest created and multiply it by the total number of square feet in the unit. In essence, the ultimate determination of number of daily total home resort points, and total in any particular ownership interest, depends on the demand factors created for each type of vacation home and the square footage of the rooms and the units. The more square footage one owns, the more points one gets to use. The base year calendar then spreads the total home resort points throughout the year in each vacation home. Conceptually room square footage is a determinative factor in points per night because that is the relationship DVD has created, i.e., the difference between each owner's ability to reserve a room is defined significantly by the total square footage he can reserve. The differences in points between studios and 1BRs (and other size rooms) is not a perfect square footage difference mainly because those demand factors chosen for each type of vacation home differ.
The problem is, those demand factors should evolve over time. There's a lot of guesswork when building the initial models, but once a property is sold out and it's been operating for a few years, they should get much better at calculating those demand factors over time. I understand that total points at a given resort can't change, but the "demand factors" between unit types and travel seasons are completely out of whack. Disney shows a complete unwillingness to make the necessary adjustments.
 
The problem is, those demand factors should evolve over time. There's a lot of guesswork when building the initial models, but once a property is sold out and it's been operating for a few years, they should get much better at calculating those demand factors over time. I understand that total points at a given resort can't change, but the "demand factors" between unit types and travel seasons are completely out of whack. Disney shows a complete unwillingness to make the necessary adjustments.

The POS gives DVC certain power to modify points after the base year has been created and the resort goes on sale. In relation to changes in seasonal demand, it can raise points for any given vacation home in any season while lowering points by an equal amount in another season. In other words, that is the way it is permitted to respond to changes in demand. Doing that effectively changes the seasonal demand factors originally created without actually revisiting any demand factors. Since that is is the only thing expressly permitted, that is the only change DVC should make,. A fiduciary is usually not legally allowed to make up additional things it can do to members that are not expressly allowed by the documents creating the relationship, but as we have seen with the modern DVC, it is basically claiming a right to make any changes it wants to while just ignoring the controlling POS that it created.

Once you concede that DVC can do anything more than what is allowed by the POS, the result will be DVC doing whatever it feels like, including what it has done with the 7-season point charts which result in total points greater than those in the base year for 48 of the next 50 years.

As to being able to make point changes to address changes in room size demand, I view that as improper. There has been much prior debate about that issue on this site. My reading of the POS would not allow it. Moreover, particularly as to earlier DVC Resorts, DVD made written representations to purchasers that its ability to change points was limited to seasonal demand changes and did not include differences in room size demand.

Also, the problem of excess studio demand has been mainly caused by DVD's sale practices over the last 11 years, e.g., it lowered the new purchase requirement to 100, and at times 75 or 50 points, from 160 points; raised the price per point greater than 100% over ten years during a time when inflation was very low to non-existent and wages remained stagnant; for new resorts raised the nightly point prices well-beyond those of the earlier resorts, thus requiring one to purchase more points even to get a desired room; added point-excessive bungalows and cabins resulting in the sale of large amounts of those extra points to those who purchased only to get smaller rooms, particularly studios; and added Murphy beds to studios that previously allowed only four so it could sell more studio points to those needing a space for five.

In essence, in the last 11 years DVD has taken multiple actions that have resulted in the oversell of points to those purchasing only enough to get studios. DVD has indicated no desitre to change its modern sale practices but meanwhile some seem to believe DVC should "fix" the problem DVD has mainly created by shifting points among the room sizes. Besides that it should not be legally allowed, the fix is something that will never be a permanent solution as long as the DVD sales practices that result in the oversell of studio interests continues. Moreover, we already know the kind of fix DVC would create if allowed to do so, in that it would significantly raise the points needed for studios and 1BRs year-round like it tried to do with the intial 2020 point charts.
 
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The POS gives DVC certain power to modify points after the base year has been created and the resort goes on sale. In relation to changes in seasonal demand, it can raise points for any given vacation home in any season while lowering points by an equal amount in another season. In other words, that is the way it is permitted to respond to changes in demand. Doing that effectively changes the seasonal demand factors originally created without actually revisiting any demand factors. Since that is is the only thing expressly permitted, that is the only change DVC should make,. A fiduciary is usually not legally allowed to make up additional things it can do to members that are not expressly allowed by the documents creating the relationship, but as we have seen with the modern DVC, it is basically claiming a right to make any changes it wants to while just ignoring the controlling POS that it created.

Once you concede that DVC can do anything more than what is allowed by the POS, the result will be DVC doing whatever it feels like, including what it has done with the 7-season point charts which result in total points greater than those in the base year for 48 of the next 50 years.
I understand this argument to some degree but believe the specific change of increasing studios to decrease 1br could be more justifiable under the clause of being able to make changes in best interest of membership. There’s also room for change in some resorts since points are set by 2br without any dedicated 1br; 1br price is high since it carries lock off premium (e.g they could reduce the lock off premium or split it more evenly with studios from lock off). I also had impression that someone looked at historic charts from when dvc opened until recent and found over the course of time the 1br cost have gone up with studios going down (can’t find post to confirm).

My problem with the balance of points for studios vs 1br is it is a clear imbalance in demand and I feel Dvc knows this and continues to push it as it makes them more profit. They have incentive to make studios low cost to sell contracts on front end and on back end it incentivizes booking more studios which forces generation of revenue via lock of premium for dvc.
 
The POS gives DVC certain power to modify points after the base year has been created and the resort goes on sale. In relation to changes in seasonal demand, it can raise points for any given vacation home in any season while lowering points by an equal amount in another season. In other words, that is the way it is permitted to respond to changes in demand. Doing that effectively changes the seasonal demand factors originally created without actually revisiting any demand factors.
Everything you just said is a distinction without a difference. I said they can do X, you're telling me they can only do Y, but X and Y are the exact same thing.

Since that is is the only thing expressly permitted, that is the only change DVC should make,. A fiduciary is usually not legally allowed to make up additional things it can do to members that are not expressly allowed by the documents creating the relationship, but as we have seen with the modern DVC, it is basically claiming a right to make any changes it wants to while just ignoring the controlling POS that it created.
Is it your contention that Disney could not raise the price of Studios and lower the price of 1BR *within* a given season?

Once you concede that DVC can do anything more than what is allowed by the POS, the result will be DVC doing whatever it feels like, including what it has done with the 7-season point charts which result in total points greater than those in the base year for 48 of the next 50 years.
I need to explain this to people... I'm going to make a chart.

The base year is *not supposed to be* the average year. The base year is the *minimum* year. "Total points greater than those in the base year" is exactly how it's supposed to work and has nothing to do with the number of price seasons. There is no grand conspiracy based on the timing of Easter.
 
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I don’t own vgf but this is first issue I thought of as well. Dvc seems to be motivated more by profit then acting in best interest of owners...

DVC is the product that the Disney Company sells, there are actually two separate entities at play.
Disney Vacation Development (DVD) is the company that builds and sells the resorts. They decide the pooint charts, price per point, incentives, perks etc etc.
Their only aim is to maximize profit for the Disney Company. If/when they do anything in favour of the members is because either they expect something in return (more sales, i.e. profit) or because they care of the brand (which leads to more sales, i.e. profits).
Adding studios to VGF with a higher point requirements would screw the existing members who would want to book the studios at the original building, but it would likely be within their rights to do so. And a bigger square footage would easily give them the justification to do so.

The second entity, which has been questioned in this thread, is the DVC Management Company. This is the company that runs the day to day operations of DVC: resorts, Member services, reservations, online website etc etc. This company is a fiduciary for the membership and they have to do the best interest of the members. It's their only reason of existence.
The fact that the board of the DVCMC is made of people who are employee of the DVD doesn't certainly help in their focus on the members' interests. It's not illegal to try and maximize revenues for the Disney Company while doing the interests of the members. But certainly not at our expenses, that's why the 2022 7 seasons charts are quite likely illegal, the 2020 point charts were illegal and keeping the tax refunds was illegal. And why the way the resale restrictions for Riviera are probably illegal, except if no one is willing to sue, they might get away with it.
 
Everything you just said is a distinction without a difference. I said they can do X, you're telling me they can only do Y, but X and Y are the exact same thing.


Is it your contention that Disney could not raise the price of Studios and lower the price of 1BR *within* a given season?


I need to explain this to people... I'm going to make a chart.

The base year is *not supposed to be* the average year. The base year is the *minimum* year. "Total points greater than those in the base year" is exactly how it's supposed to work and has nothing to do with the number of price seasons. There is no grand conspiracy based on the timing of Easter.


As I added to the post, you will see that I am of a different opinion. And yes, it is my view that DVC cannot shift points between room sizes.

Also, the base year is not just the minimum point year. As I have set out earlier in this thread, the POS documents, such as the Product Understanding Checklist, expressly provide that the total points in any calendar year cannot change from year to year, except for a change naturally caused by the calendar change itself, such as would be the case with leap year adding a day or a year which has an addional weekend day. DVD even has sales promotional videos where it states that total points for a year can never be changed over the lifetime of the resort except for changes naturally caused by the change in the annual calendars. The Membership Agreement allows DVC to make point changes that result only in total points remaining the same. DVC is not itself permitted to do any purposeful act designed to raise total points. In essence, points may be higher than base year in some years only to the extent that naturally results from changes in the annual calendars. DVC's act to change the calendars and purposefully use the change in the Easter date as a change that results in raising the total points for 48 of the next 50 years beyond those in the base year is not an allowed increase in total points.
 
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As I added to the post, you will see that I am of a different opinion. And yes, it is my view that DVC cannot shift points between room sizes.

Also, the base year is not just the minimum point year. As I have set out earlier in this thread, the POS documents, such as the Product Understanding Checklist, expressly provide that the total points in any calendar year cannot change from year to year, except for a change naturally caused by the calendar change itself, such as would be the case with leap year adding a day or a year which has an addional weekend day. DVD even has sales promotional videos where it states that total points for a year can never be changed over the lifetime of the resort except for changes naturally caused by the change in the annual calendars. The Membership Agreement allows DVC to make point changes that result only in total points remaining the same. DVC is not itself permitted to do any purposeful act designed to raise total points. In essence, points may be higher than base year in some years only to the extent that naturally results from changes in the annual calendars. DVC's act to change the calendars and purposefully use the change in the Easter date as a change that results in raising the total points for 48 of the next 50 years beyond those in the base year is not an allowed increase in total points.
I think that the other point here is that DVC is trying to change the base year...
 
I also had impression that someone looked at historic charts from when dvc opened until recent and found over the course of time the 1br cost have gone up with studios going down (can’t find post to confirm).

You may have been referring to my post #838 in this thread (linked below)
It is only for BCV comparing 2011 to 2022 and it shows total points for studios going down while total point for 1BRs and 2BRs going up over that time period. @drusba has stated he does not believe it is legal for DVC to change total points between room sizes, but DVC seems to have established a precedent they could point to if someone challenged a future point change between room sizes.

I found the 2011 BCV point chart online and ran the numbers. Below are the results.
 
I think that the other point here is that DVC is trying to change the base year...

Agree although DVC has given two varying answers to that question. My view is that DVC could not change the base year originally created for each Resort and cannot even change the seasons originally created. But that is something attempted with the 7-season point charts. In earlier conversations with a member concerning that issue, DVC personnel actually admitted they were changing the base year to 2036 to conform with the new calendar. That is the year when Easter is at its earliest in the next 50-years, March 25. DVC also claimed, in that earlier conversation, that there were no rules preventing it from increasing the total points from year to year. The only prohibition was that total points could never be lower than the base year. The problem with DVC's position at that time is that what it was claiming a right to do was expressly prohibited by the POS.

In a later conversation, DVC backed off those positions somewhat by asserting it was not changing the base year but merely making 2036 the year of lowest total points, while contending the base year was just irrelevant to any issue involving increased points. That position basically said that 2036 was the base year as one would think of a base year but we just won't call it that.

From my analysis, the POS does not allow the creation of the 7-season chart, does not allow DVC to use the change in the Easter date as a method to increase total points higher than the base year over 48 of the next 50 years, and does not allow a change in the base year. Nevertheless, my sense is we could live with the 7-season point charts, and the selection of 2036 as the base year, if DVC did away with its Easter changes that are causing total points in many years to be much greater than those in a base year. Total points would always be the same as those in the 2036 base year, except for changes naturally caused by the annual calendar changes, if DVC would just annually make all dates from March 18 to April 30, that are before or after the two Easter weeks, a part of season 5. Currently those days that are before the two Easter weeks are always in season 6 and those after the two Easter weeks are in season 5. Putting all those days in season 5 would annually make total points equal those in the 2036 base year except for increases naturally resulting from the change of the annual calendars. Unfortunately, we are now well beyond when that change had to be made for 2022, by Apri 11, 2021, because beginning April 12, the night of March 18 could be included in an 11-month out reservation.
 
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Exhibit A to the Master Cotenancy Agreement sets out how seasons, ownership interests, total home Resort Vacation points and point charts are created. A demand factor per season and per year is created for each class of vacation home, based on projected probable demand per season and per year. DVD then uses the demand factors created for each type of vacation home to create the total real interests that will apply to the resort and the percentage that will be assigned to any purchasing member.

DVD then determines the total Home Resort Vacation points and the means of setting total per ownership interest, which is to take the percentage ownership interest created and multiply it by the total number of square feet in the unit. In essence, the ultimate determination of number of daily total home resort points, and total in any particular ownership interest, depends on the demand factors created for each type of vacation home and the square footage of the rooms and the units. The more square footage one owns, the more points one gets to use. The base year calendar then spreads the total home resort points throughout the year in each vacation home. Conceptually room square footage is a determinative factor in points per night because that is the relationship DVD has created, i.e., the difference between each owner's ability to reserve a room is defined significantly by the total square footage he can reserve. The differences in points between studios and 1BRs (and other size rooms) is not a perfect square footage difference mainly because those demand factors chosen for each type of vacation home differ.

I'll have to read this again later and consider it more but my initial thought is that the square footage is simply used in the calculation because it is a deeded real estate interest and those typically need to be based on the percentage of ownership in the unit. It sounds like they back into that % by first deciding on the points and that's where in reading I look at the square footage just as a calculation necessity but not as a determination of points. If it was a determination of points then it would be in the initial equation and not brought in just to determine % ownership. If the actual square footage a point represents varies between a unit with say 2BR's and one with a GV then I think it backs up my thought that it's just a necessary part of the equation for the real estate % but does not determine the points. It would need to be consistently represented across units IMO to determine points and just the fact that a 2BR which is 3 times the square footage of a studio but not 3 times the points leads me to a different conclusion of what it's purpose is. My thought may change upon reading it again as I might have missed something.
 
I'll have to read this again later and consider it more but my initial thought is that the square footage is simply used in the calculation because it is a deeded real estate interest and those typically need to be based on the percentage of ownership in the unit. It sounds like they back into that % by first deciding on the points and that's where in reading I look at the square footage just as a calculation necessity but not as a determination of points. If it was a determination of points then it would be in the initial equation and not brought in just to determine % ownership. If the actual square footage a point represents varies between a unit with say 2BR's and one with a GV then I think it backs up my thought that it's just a necessary part of the equation for the real estate % but does not determine the points. It would need to be consistently represented across units IMO to determine points and just the fact that a 2BR which is 3 times the square footage of a studio but not 3 times the points leads me to a different conclusion of what it's purpose is. My thought may change upon reading it again as I might have missed something.

I am astounded that you may find that Exhibit A has a different meaning as to the use of square footage from my construction. I mean, since Exhibit A is such an excellent example of clarity in writing, I wonder how anybody could come away with a different interpretation from mine.

Of course, I also sometimes engage in intended satire, and the reality is your interpretation is likely one of the possibilities.
 
I am astounded that you may find that Exhibit A has a different meaning as to the use of square footage from my construction. I mean, since Exhibit A is such an excellent example of clarity in writing, I wonder how anybody could come away with a different interpretation from mine.

Of course, I also sometimes engage in intended satire, and the reality is your interpretation is likely one of the possibilities.

And I had just finished reading DVC's footnotes on what qualifies you for booking cruises both cash and points so my interpretation skills were flying high and uncluttered by contradictions and amendments. :rolleyes::laughing:
 
New VGF points aside - anyone receive an update from DVC concerning 2022 point chart adjustments?
 
New VGF points aside - anyone receive an update from DVC concerning 2022 point chart adjustments?

Nothing new on the website. I wonder if they will wait...assuming they follow through with what some were told...until they put out the new 2022 chart for VGF which has to be done since they are adding the rooms.
 
Nothing new on the website. I wonder if they will wait...assuming they follow through with what some were told...until they put out the new 2022 chart for VGF which has to be done since they are adding the rooms.
Good point - my guess is VGF2 points will be between STD and LV Studio points with the price being 255 or more but discount for current DVC members and large point purchases...so those hoping to pick up 25-50 points on the cheap will be outta luck...
 

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