For what reasons could you be requested to go through the full body scanners?
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CPT Tripss
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I hope that there is more audio and video recording at checkpoints by both TSA and pax. Light being shed on the interactions between authority figures and citizens is good.
ETA: Has the poster (I think it might have been eliza61 - but I'm not certain) that asserted Tyner threatened to punch the TSA screener come up with a cite for that?
sam_gordon
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kaytieeldr
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Respectfully, yes, you did claim this as fact. You didn't imply anything, you made a clear, if completely unsubstantiated, statement:GraceLuvsWDW said:
GraceLuvsWDW said:
CPT Tripss
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eliza61
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Ok that was me and I thought I had put in the 2nd post the correct information.
But just in case, here it goes again.
The very first post I quoted the a radio news report. The 2nd post, I thought I put in the correct link saying it was a correction from abc news.com where he clearly did not say he was going to punch the guy, he said he was going to have the guy arrested.
I thought the 2nd post was the correction. Sorry.
goofy4tink
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Not really. Probe, grope and touch all mean different things. To be probed (physically anyway) means that something has entered you. Groping is a form of 'grabbing', and touching is, well, touching. A touch can just be a swipe of the hand.
Could very well have been over the top behaviour. I wasn't there, neither was the poster who posted that friend's experience. Did the friend relate every single thing that happened, that was said? Maybe, maybe not.
I don't want to be accused of being hot headed but this is the issue here. People report things that may have been exaggerated. Maybe they haven't been, but many times they are.
And those posts that were deleted, or edited? I try not to edit posts unless it's really necessary. Posts are deleted because they have violated board guidelines. It isn't a case of me being arbitrary or deciding to censor someone. Nothing could be further from the truth. But there are certain guidelines that I am supposed to maintain.
eliza61
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ok, here is the thread you were speaking about. I don't know how to transfer between different thread and this was on another thread.
http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=38964984&postcount=105
So I watching the news and low and behold the topic of the TSA and new screening machines come up.
So the gentlemen who is spear heading the national opt out day (I can't find his name any where) goes to the airport and opt out of the scan. On his video tape the first thing he says to the TSA agent is:
"I'd like to opt out of the scan but I'm telling you now if you touch my junk, I'm having you arrested and punching you". Ok so if I'm an agent my first thought is:
This guy is here for one reason, to start a fight, video tape it and have a lawsuit. so now it's a good chance he's going to miss his flight because I'm not letting him through and he's going to wait until I get a supervisor, a manager and an local police men so I have no "molestation" charges against me.
After which I posted.
http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=38965218&postcount=106
found the story. sorry for the confusion on the story.
Guys name was John Tyner and he ended up getting tossed out of the airport. now of course he says he didn't mean it and said it with a "half smile" on his face.
http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/john-ty...ry?id=12153388
So now who's the bully and the thug? Can the tsa agent now press charges that this guy threaten him? I would.
And a few post later, I said
http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=38969641&postcount=117
Sorry I thought the 2nd post with the correction was obvious. the first post I said I couldn't find the guys name or information. The 2nd post with the article link is where you will find the correct information. I apologize
As a rule I generally don't go making stuff up. LOL. if only that were true with the allegations against the TSA agents.
OK, so to put this to rest. I most humbly apologize for the first post (#105)
desole je me suis trompe. (hanging out in France in a few weeks). The first post (#105) shows inaccurate information. I would delete it but then I would probably be accused of hiding some thing.
Post # 106 CORRECTLY shows the altercation. this is from abcnews.com. Post #117 is my 3rd attempt at apologizing for showing inaccurate information.
CPT Tripss
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Hey, I for one wouldn't want your job as Mod. I doubt that Dis could pay me enough to change my mind.
I note at the bottom of the page that three Mods are IDed. I've seen more than a couple of posts by other individuals acting like a mod in terms of telling people what should or should not be posted. The folks are not listed as a Mod and don't have "mod ID" in their avatar. I have to tell you, I find these posts inappropriate . . . are they in possible violation of the board rules? Is it appropriate for me, or others to "report" such posts?
CPT Tripss
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eliza - Entschuldigung, or maybe Entschuldigung Sie mir bitte (in case you get into Germany) I never know how formal to be in German (where the heck is Baveria when I need her) I sure wasn't looking for all that.
It is a rather winding thread
and difficult to follow.
As far as I know, Tyner is not the "Opt Out Day" ringleader. But it seems clear he supports it.
It is a rather winding thread
and difficult to follow.As far as I know, Tyner is not the "Opt Out Day" ringleader. But it seems clear he supports it.
GraceLuvsWDW
DIS Veteran
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- Mar 19, 2007
Yes I did claim 15%. That is based on a CBS News Poll that 15% of Americans DISAPPROVE of the full body scans. You can see that poll here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20022876-503544.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody
And respectfully, I didn't claim anything other than that as truth:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraceLuvsWDW
So far, 15% of the people flying are against the full body scans and/or the enhanced pat down. 15% decrease in travel to an industry that already has very few companies turning a profit. And that's just now, at the beginning of this debate, it will increase as more and more incidents of impropriety are reported.
GraceLuvsWDW
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- Mar 19, 2007
November 15, 2010, 7:32 pm
The Full-Body Backlash
By NATE SILVER
8:07 p.m. | http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/15/the-full-body-backlash/
As full-body scanners come into more widespread use in American airports (they will be phased in soon at the three major airports in the New York City metro region), they are also coming under more frequent criticism.
The objections are coming from many different quarters:
* Unions representing American Airlines and US Airways, citing concerns about radiation, have asked their pilots to bypass the scanning machines and instead opt for a pat-down.
* Bipartisan groups of legislators in New Jersey and Idaho are working to ban the use of such systems in their states.
* Some widely read bloggers spanning different parts of the political spectrum like Jeffrey Goldberg of The Atlantic Monthly, Cory Doctorow of Boing Boing, and Patrick Smith of Salon (who is a commercial airline pilot) have been highly critical of the new procedures.
* A California man named John Tyner who wrote about and videotaped his experience at San Diego International Airport, in which he claimed to have been threatened with a $10,000 fine for refusing a pat-down even after he decided not to board his flight, received more than 4,000 comments to his blog, the vast majority of them sympathetic.
* Another blogger has called for Wednesday, Nov. 24th among the busiest travel days of the year to be national opt-out day, encouraging people to submit to a pat-down (and to have it done in full view of other passengers) rather than go through the body-scanning machines.
So is there a backlash brewing?
Before we look at what the polls have to say and at some of the potential problems with them I should make clear that Im sympathetic to these arguments. As Ive written in the past, the risk of airplane-based terrorism is probably overstated, and may obscure more serious threats like that posed by the potential for terrorists to gain access to weapons of mass destruction.
My first experience with the full-body scanners, on a flight back to Kennedy Airport from San Diego last month, was also a negative one. I had assumed that, whatever their other faults, the full-body scanners would at least speed up the process of going through the security line; I supposed I imagined something like this scene from the movie Total Recall, in which passengers literally dont even have to pause to go through security as their bodies are scanned while they walk toward the departure gate.
Instead, the lines were quite slow possibly because the machines were coming up with a lot of false positives, myself included. As is my usual practice when passing through airport security, I emptied my pants pockets completely there wasnt so much as a stick of gum, a penny, or a taxi receipt in there. But the machine nevertheless insisted that that there was something in the back right-hand pocket of my jeans. When the official from the Transportation Security Administration asked me what I had in my pocket, and I told him that there was absolutely nothing, he then performed a pat-down. I was in a chipper enough mood that I wasnt inclined to make a scene, but I did ask the T.S.A. official whether it was routine for the machines to see things that werent there, to which he declined to respond.
This is not necessarily to suggest that my experience was typical although perhaps there are some particular issues in San Diego, the same airport at which Mr. Tyner experienced his problems, and perhaps there is something of a learning curve as T.S.A. crews learn how to use the new technologies effectively.
Still, it shifted my overall opinion of the technology from positive to negative. This may be something to keep in mind when reviewing polls on the topic.
The T.S.A. is fond of citing polls which suggest that about 75 or 80 percent of air travelers approve of the new machines. There are a couple of issues having to do with the timing of these surveys, however. Most of them were conducted in January, immediately after the failed attempt last Christmas day by a Nigerian man, who had concealed explosives in his underwear, to blow up a plane travelling from Amsterdam to Detroit during which time concern about air travel security would naturally have been quite elevated.
In addition, the surveys were conducted at a time when virtually no Americans would have had experiences with the full-body scanners, which had not yet been installed in any American airports at that time. Again, I have no way of knowing whether my experience at San Diego was at all typical. But if so, I would imagine that other people might have their opinions shifted after actually having encountered the machines.
In general, surveying Americans on issues related to airport security is problematic because most Americans fly rarely, if ever. A Gallup poll conducted in 2008, for instance, found that just 44 percent of Americans reported having flown at least once in the past year. In fact, this is probably an overestimate. The Gallup poll reported that American adults had taken an average of 1.7 round trips by airplane in the past year. Statistics compiled by the Department of Transportation, however, found a total of about 800 million passengers boarded flights offered by U.S.-based carriers in 2008. Since a typical round-trip consists of either 2 or 4 flights (depending on whether there is a layover or not; a round-trip might also involve as many as 6 or 8 flights when there are multiple layovers), this implies that there were something on the order of 250 million round trips made by airplane in 2008, which would be fewer than one per American, rather than the 1.7 trips that the Gallup poll found. My guess is that the fraction of Americans who travel by plane each year is in fact probably not more than about 1 in 3.
In addition, these flights are concentrated among relatively few people. A study by the market-research firm Arbitron found, for instance, that frequent fliers those who take 4 or more round trips per year account for the 57 percent majority of all air travel, even though they make up just 18 percent of air travelers and something like 7 percent of the overall American population.
At least one past survey has identified differences in perceptions about airport security procedures between frequent and occasional fliers. This was a 2007 Gallup poll, which found that while just 26 percent of occasional travels were dissatisfied with airport security, the level rose to 37 percent among those who fly more frequently.
What I think we need to know then, is how those who have actually traveled through an airport that uses the full-body scanners feel about them particularly if theyre people who fly frequently and are therefore going to bear the burden of any inconvenience, embarrassment, invasion of privacy or health risk brought on by the new technology.
My guess is that a majority of such passengers will still approve of them: Americans are willing to tolerate a great number of things at the airport that they would never stand for in other parts of their lives. (Imagine, for instance, if you had to pass through a metal detector on the way into the shopping mall, or were diverted for 15 minutes through a security checkpoint every time that you wanted to drive on the Interstate.)
But the holiday travel period when nerves are always frayed and the weather is often at its worst will be a significant test of the new system. I would advise passengers to get to the airport early, particularly if they are flying out of airports, like San Diego, where the systems have been installed very recently.
Update: Just as we were posting this item, a new poll came in from CBS News showing 81 percent of Americans supporting the full body scans. So, it does not appear that the high levels of support were an artifact of the timing of the previous surveys, most of which had been conducted shortly after the Christmas Day bombing attempt.
Nevertheless, I would guess that only somewhere between 1 and 5 percent of Americans have so far traveled through a security line where such machines were in use; it will probably take some time before we know where public opinion settles in on this topic.
Another issue is that most of these surveys are asking about the full-body machines in a vacuum. Id be curious to see what the results were if respondents were asked to pick between full-body machines and traditional metal detectors.
The Full-Body Backlash
By NATE SILVER
8:07 p.m. | http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/15/the-full-body-backlash/
As full-body scanners come into more widespread use in American airports (they will be phased in soon at the three major airports in the New York City metro region), they are also coming under more frequent criticism.
The objections are coming from many different quarters:
* Unions representing American Airlines and US Airways, citing concerns about radiation, have asked their pilots to bypass the scanning machines and instead opt for a pat-down.
* Bipartisan groups of legislators in New Jersey and Idaho are working to ban the use of such systems in their states.
* Some widely read bloggers spanning different parts of the political spectrum like Jeffrey Goldberg of The Atlantic Monthly, Cory Doctorow of Boing Boing, and Patrick Smith of Salon (who is a commercial airline pilot) have been highly critical of the new procedures.
* A California man named John Tyner who wrote about and videotaped his experience at San Diego International Airport, in which he claimed to have been threatened with a $10,000 fine for refusing a pat-down even after he decided not to board his flight, received more than 4,000 comments to his blog, the vast majority of them sympathetic.
* Another blogger has called for Wednesday, Nov. 24th among the busiest travel days of the year to be national opt-out day, encouraging people to submit to a pat-down (and to have it done in full view of other passengers) rather than go through the body-scanning machines.
So is there a backlash brewing?
Before we look at what the polls have to say and at some of the potential problems with them I should make clear that Im sympathetic to these arguments. As Ive written in the past, the risk of airplane-based terrorism is probably overstated, and may obscure more serious threats like that posed by the potential for terrorists to gain access to weapons of mass destruction.
My first experience with the full-body scanners, on a flight back to Kennedy Airport from San Diego last month, was also a negative one. I had assumed that, whatever their other faults, the full-body scanners would at least speed up the process of going through the security line; I supposed I imagined something like this scene from the movie Total Recall, in which passengers literally dont even have to pause to go through security as their bodies are scanned while they walk toward the departure gate.
Instead, the lines were quite slow possibly because the machines were coming up with a lot of false positives, myself included. As is my usual practice when passing through airport security, I emptied my pants pockets completely there wasnt so much as a stick of gum, a penny, or a taxi receipt in there. But the machine nevertheless insisted that that there was something in the back right-hand pocket of my jeans. When the official from the Transportation Security Administration asked me what I had in my pocket, and I told him that there was absolutely nothing, he then performed a pat-down. I was in a chipper enough mood that I wasnt inclined to make a scene, but I did ask the T.S.A. official whether it was routine for the machines to see things that werent there, to which he declined to respond.
This is not necessarily to suggest that my experience was typical although perhaps there are some particular issues in San Diego, the same airport at which Mr. Tyner experienced his problems, and perhaps there is something of a learning curve as T.S.A. crews learn how to use the new technologies effectively.
Still, it shifted my overall opinion of the technology from positive to negative. This may be something to keep in mind when reviewing polls on the topic.
The T.S.A. is fond of citing polls which suggest that about 75 or 80 percent of air travelers approve of the new machines. There are a couple of issues having to do with the timing of these surveys, however. Most of them were conducted in January, immediately after the failed attempt last Christmas day by a Nigerian man, who had concealed explosives in his underwear, to blow up a plane travelling from Amsterdam to Detroit during which time concern about air travel security would naturally have been quite elevated.
In addition, the surveys were conducted at a time when virtually no Americans would have had experiences with the full-body scanners, which had not yet been installed in any American airports at that time. Again, I have no way of knowing whether my experience at San Diego was at all typical. But if so, I would imagine that other people might have their opinions shifted after actually having encountered the machines.
In general, surveying Americans on issues related to airport security is problematic because most Americans fly rarely, if ever. A Gallup poll conducted in 2008, for instance, found that just 44 percent of Americans reported having flown at least once in the past year. In fact, this is probably an overestimate. The Gallup poll reported that American adults had taken an average of 1.7 round trips by airplane in the past year. Statistics compiled by the Department of Transportation, however, found a total of about 800 million passengers boarded flights offered by U.S.-based carriers in 2008. Since a typical round-trip consists of either 2 or 4 flights (depending on whether there is a layover or not; a round-trip might also involve as many as 6 or 8 flights when there are multiple layovers), this implies that there were something on the order of 250 million round trips made by airplane in 2008, which would be fewer than one per American, rather than the 1.7 trips that the Gallup poll found. My guess is that the fraction of Americans who travel by plane each year is in fact probably not more than about 1 in 3.
In addition, these flights are concentrated among relatively few people. A study by the market-research firm Arbitron found, for instance, that frequent fliers those who take 4 or more round trips per year account for the 57 percent majority of all air travel, even though they make up just 18 percent of air travelers and something like 7 percent of the overall American population.
At least one past survey has identified differences in perceptions about airport security procedures between frequent and occasional fliers. This was a 2007 Gallup poll, which found that while just 26 percent of occasional travels were dissatisfied with airport security, the level rose to 37 percent among those who fly more frequently.
What I think we need to know then, is how those who have actually traveled through an airport that uses the full-body scanners feel about them particularly if theyre people who fly frequently and are therefore going to bear the burden of any inconvenience, embarrassment, invasion of privacy or health risk brought on by the new technology.
My guess is that a majority of such passengers will still approve of them: Americans are willing to tolerate a great number of things at the airport that they would never stand for in other parts of their lives. (Imagine, for instance, if you had to pass through a metal detector on the way into the shopping mall, or were diverted for 15 minutes through a security checkpoint every time that you wanted to drive on the Interstate.)
But the holiday travel period when nerves are always frayed and the weather is often at its worst will be a significant test of the new system. I would advise passengers to get to the airport early, particularly if they are flying out of airports, like San Diego, where the systems have been installed very recently.
Update: Just as we were posting this item, a new poll came in from CBS News showing 81 percent of Americans supporting the full body scans. So, it does not appear that the high levels of support were an artifact of the timing of the previous surveys, most of which had been conducted shortly after the Christmas Day bombing attempt.
Nevertheless, I would guess that only somewhere between 1 and 5 percent of Americans have so far traveled through a security line where such machines were in use; it will probably take some time before we know where public opinion settles in on this topic.
Another issue is that most of these surveys are asking about the full-body machines in a vacuum. Id be curious to see what the results were if respondents were asked to pick between full-body machines and traditional metal detectors.
maxiesmom
The Mean Squinty Eye Works
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2004
Funny how that article shows it from the other point of view. That 4 in 5 people approve of the enhanced security.
And even if 15% of people disapprove of it, that doesn't mean that 15% of people will stop flying because of it. You never know, in that 4 of 5 people that approve there are probably people who wouldn't fly before because they felt unsafe.
Isn't it interesting how you can take the same article and slant what it says to support your point of view.
clanmcculloch
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2009
A survey stating that 15% disapprove of the scans means nothing. I disapprove of the scans. I don't disapprove enought to opt out. They're the current requirement to get on a plane and I disapprove of the enhanced patdown more than the scan. My disapproval is not a rejection of the scan but I don't see how they're more effective than what we already had and they slow things down and IMO we really didn't need to spend this kind of money on new equipment that isn't going to improve security (again IMO) so that's the main basis of my disapproval. I suspect that many who responded with disapproval are similar to me in the sense that their disapproval won't actually change their flying habits in any way. So what does that statistic tell any of us? Absolutely nothing.
eliza61
DIS Veteran
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- Jun 2, 2003
eliza - Entschuldigung, or maybe Entschuldigung Sie mir bitte (in case you get into Germany) I never know how formal to be in German (where the heck is Baveria when I need her) I sure wasn't looking for all that.
It is a rather winding thread
As far as I know, Tyner is not the "Opt Out Day" ringleader. But it seems clear he supports it.
I just didnt want you to think I purposely post inaccurate information out of spite.
As soon as I got to work and found the entire story on line, I posted the correction with the link. The only reason I didn't go back and delete post 105 was because I didn't want it to seem fishy.
P.S. all this time I thought Baveria was a he! boy I'm batting 0 for 2 here.
Oh well I think I've beaten the heck out of this topic. so in closing,
I do hope folks who have issues (and like I said I realize your issue are important to you) with the new TSA security get a satisfactory resolution. I honestly have not had one whit of problems with them so it's a non issue in my life, what can I say. I plan on continuing to travel by plane for the forseeable future and I wish everyone safe journeys.
GraceLuvsWDW
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2007
Front Page CNN Poll: Would you object to a full-body scan or pat down at airport security?
GraceLuvsWDW
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2007
76, 986 respondents say I am not "twisting the information" to suit my agenda
clanmcculloch
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2009
But it doesn't actually mean that a single one of those responders will actually change their flying habits. That question wasn't asked. It's very easy to sit behind a computer screen and say "I object to xyz" when it isn't affecting you. They didn't ask if people will stop flying. That's what it really comes down to. I don't have an agenda one way or the other. I would love to know and I would love to go back to the previous screening method until something actually effective comes up because I really don't like the idea of even more money being spent on on machines that will slow things down for what I believe is no added security compared to what was already in place. That doesn't mean I believe that a poll like this means anything.
sam_gordon
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2010
Well put. For the record, I don't disapprove or approve of the scans OR the pat downs. Do I wish we didn't have to go through them? Sure. Unfortunately that's the world we live in. Do I wish Disney didn't have to do a bag search? Sure. But that's part of the price for wanting to go into the parks. Do the bag searches at WDW make me feel any more safe? Nope. Just like the new scanners don't make me feel any more safe.
As far as the new scans effectiveness... I can see where the new scanners could find weapons/materials the WTMD wouldn't. I can also see where there are "holes" (pardon the pun) in the system. Does that mean the system shouldn't be in place? I don't think so.
People can yell and scream on message boards, blogs, youtube, etc all they want. Maybe they'll succeed in getting things changed. Somehow I doubt it. But, even if they are successful... until things change if you don't want to go through the new screenings... don't fly.
GraceLuvsWDW
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2007
This is a pointless debate.
Have a nice Thanksgiving everyone. May all your body screens and pat downs be nice ones.
Have a nice Thanksgiving everyone. May all your body screens and pat downs be nice ones.
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