I Am Not Sure Walt Would Disapprove

[Itsnotmykitchen]

That's a good point, except that in 1955, your average household income was only being provided by a single person.

That’s not exactly true. Women were in the workforce and probably more than you think. Both of my grandmothers worked in the 50s, granted they were not traveling to California to do anything.

Teens also worked far more back in the day.

 

[snowwhite84]

this is excellent, the only thing I have to add, was that Walt never really seemed to care to much about price/ profit, he usually left things like that up to his big brother, or others. Money was a means to how far he could stretch his imagination, and that seems to be about it. That changed for the company as a whole when they went public in 57’

I agree with this. I see Walt as uncaring of money one way or the other. I don’t think he was out to make as much revenue as possible, but I also don’t think he was trying to make attractions lower cost to be accessible to more people, which is what I think a lot of people on the Dis believe.

 

[a1tinkfans]

It’s the “ feeling” and in many cases the Nickel and diming of Disney that have turned many away. It feels GREEDY… their marketing for years have been about family and memories and all that fuzzy good stuff and the “ perks” of staying onsite are basically gone, it just feels Wrong. So despite being Able to Afford it … I just can’t do it feeling this way. The Magic feels STOLEN

 

[Disneyfan754321]

We are at the point where tickets need to be raised.. but how do you raise something that's already high? You have to take away and/or charge for things that were once free.

 

[Tigger's ally]

It’s the “ feeling” and in many cases the Nickel and diming of Disney that have turned many away. It feels GREEDY… their marketing for years have been about family and memories and all that fuzzy good stuff and the “ perks” of staying onsite are basically gone, it just feels Wrong. So despite being Able to Afford it … I just can’t do it feeling this way. The Magic feels STOLEN

Then go elsewhere and see if the other places are nickle and diming too. You will find out. So many of us don't have that knowledge because Disney is all we know. My new job has opened my eyes though.

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

It’s the “ feeling” and in many cases the Nickel and diming of Disney that have turned many away. It feels GREEDY… their marketing for years have been about family and memories and all that fuzzy good stuff and the “ perks” of staying onsite are basically gone, it just feels Wrong. So despite being Able to Afford it … I just can’t do it feeling this way. The Magic feels STOLEN

Disney seems to be removing perks from staying on site, to staying in a deluxe resort. I think they realize that they have an audience that will stay on property with or without perks, so they no longer need to incentivize guests to stay with them. The exception being deluxe resorts, where you are paying a pretty high premium, and i assume Disney has a harder time booking, so perks are shifting to them as of now.

I do understand the frustration, with price increases, but i keep coming back to, if Disney just added all these charges to the price of the daily ticket would everyone be as upset, or would that be more palatable? I personally like the fact that Disney is giving you options, you can pay more, and get more, or you can pay less, and get less, it lets you customize your vacation to what fits your budget. Instead of everyone paying more for the same experience, even if some people didn't want all the options thrust upon them

 

[rideswithchrist]

today's average yearly income of $79,900

According to the US Census, the average US household income in 2019 was $65,71. That said, many states have an average around $55,000 (Ironically, that includes Florida) or less.
That is quite a bit lower than you original math, which to me- would mean quite a bit of inflation in the price of a Disney Ticket. (BUT can we compare DW to DL anyway?)

Also, that was for California- so locals would be stopping by. I don't go often enough to really compare, but I do see that our trips have gotten more and more expensive, with less of the UNIQUE Disney experience. If I just want rides- I can go anywhere...the shows and imagineering is what I like, and those things are getting squashed out while prices are increasing and nickel and dime things are happening. (Genie+ for example is not happening for my family of 6 for a week's long vacation).

 

[KimMcGowan]

According to the US Census, the average US household income in 2019 was $65,71. That said, many states have an average around $55,000 (Ironically, that includes Florida) or less.
That is quite a bit lower than you original math, which to me- would mean quite a bit of inflation in the price of a Disney Ticket. (BUT can we compare DW to DL anyway?)

Also, that was for California- so locals would be stopping by. I don't go often enough to really compare, but I do see that our trips have gotten more and more expensive, with less of the UNIQUE Disney experience. If I just want rides- I can go anywhere...the shows and imagineering is what I like, and those things are getting squashed out while prices are increasing and nickel and dime things are happening. (Genie+ for example is not happening for my family of 6 for a week's long vacation).

Oh man…rookie math error. I used the median instead of the mean. I feel like a gigantic dork. I searched for the mean and it gave me the median and I didn’t catch the change. .

 

[KimMcGowan]

According to the US Census, the average US household income in 2019 was $65,71. That said, many states have an average around $55,000 (Ironically, that includes Florida) or less.
That is quite a bit lower than you original math, which to me- would mean quite a bit of inflation in the price of a Disney Ticket. (BUT can we compare DW to DL anyway?)

Also, that was for California- so locals would be stopping by. I don't go often enough to really compare, but I do see that our trips have gotten more and more expensive, with less of the UNIQUE Disney experience. If I just want rides- I can go anywhere...the shows and imagineering is what I like, and those things are getting squashed out while prices are increasing and nickel and dime things are happening. (Genie+ for example is not happening for my family of 6 for a week's long vacation).

Still smarting from the math error, I went in search of the 2020 number so I can try to get factual numbers (yes, still horrified that I made such a simple error). The best number I can come up with for 2020, $65,836, which is actually very close to your number.
Using the 2020 number gives you a percentage of yearly income equal to 0.001885. That number still shows only a difference of 0.008715 from the 1955 number. I think yearly income is the number to use for this calculation because for most Disney is (at most) a yearly trip. (The people on these boards are definitely the exception.). So, comparing the % of yearly income to attend a Disney park gives you a fairly comparable number regardless of year. And yes - I do think you can compare WDW and DL in this case because the question is would Walt disapprove? The only way to do that is compare the prices of the park where Walt was the decision maker to any current park today. If the numbers are close it is hard to assume that Walt would look at these numbers and be appalled.
That said, I actually think your point - a very good one - is that the experience has declined no matter the price. I agree with you 100%. This is not the Disney of the early 90’s!

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

Also, that was for California- so locals would be stopping by. I don't go often enough to really compare, but I do see that our trips have gotten more and more expensive, with less of the UNIQUE Disney experience. If I just want rides- I can go anywhere...the shows and imagineering is what I like, and those things are getting squashed out while prices are increasing and nickel and dime things are happening. (Genie+ for example is not happening for my family of 6 for a week's long vacation).

I keep seeing “nickel and dime” pop up all over these boards. Assuming Disney was going to go through with a price increase either way, (let’s face it every business raises rates every year), where would you have added the price increase to (hotels, tickets, dining, ect…)?

 

[Liquidice]

I keep seeing “nickel and dime” pop up all over these boards. Assuming Disney was going to go through with a price increase either way, (let’s face it every business raises rates every year), where would you have added the price increase to (hotels, tickets, dining, ect…)?

You could peanut butter spread it across a bunch of things, but thinking about perks that have been cut - you could build it into where it makes sense:

1. Magical Express - hotel rooms
2. Magic Bands - maybe you do eliminate this, otherwise hotel rooms
3. Fastpass+ - Ticket prices (although did this really cost Disney more money?)
4. Reduced Mousekeeping at hotels (used to be you got a gift card if you opted to have Mousekeeping comes less often) - hotel rooms
5. Restricted Park Hopping - Not sure there is actually a cost to doing this, but ticket prices (more expensive cost for park hopping)
6. Extra Magic Hours - hotel rooms
7. Park Pass restriction for APs - again not a cost to Disney but you could increase the AP cost or allow more Park Passes depending on the tier like they're doing with MagicKey

I think if you're trying to find a balance, to control runaway costs on the hotel side (looking at the list, it is mostly hotel side benefits) - you could obviously eliminate magic bands, keep the reduced mousekeeping, and the modified Extra Magic Hours but maybe try to keep MDE.

On ticket prices, they could have raised ticket prices by $15 for everyone if they really wanted the extra revenue and kept FP+ - it actually would have given them more revenue.

 

[Itsnotmykitchen]

I keep seeing “nickel and dime” pop up all over these boards. Assuming Disney was going to go through with a price increase either way, (let’s face it every business raises rates every year), where would you have added the price increase to (hotels, tickets, dining, ect…)?

I am cautiously optimistic that this might help standby lines so I’m hoping this is inaccurate but I feel like genie+ is basically just a $15 ticket price increase. It just seems like too low of a price to detract people and given the way Disney lays out their reservation system just an easy thing to keep on your package. If everyone has it, it’s possible genie+ doesn’t actually do anything so they might just have well raised the ticket prices.

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

You could peanut butter spread it across a bunch of things, but thinking about perks that have been cut - you could build it into where it makes sense:

1. Magical Express - hotel rooms
2. Magic Bands - maybe you do eliminate this, otherwise hotel rooms
3. Fastpass+ - Ticket prices (although did this really cost Disney more money?)
4. Reduced Mousekeeping at hotels (used to be you got a gift card if you opted to have Mousekeeping comes less often) - hotel rooms
5. Restricted Park Hopping - Not sure there is actually a cost to doing this, but ticket prices (more expensive cost for park hopping)
6. Extra Magic Hours - hotel rooms
7. Park Pass restriction for APs - again not a cost to Disney but you could increase the AP cost or allow more Park Passes depending on the tier like they're doing with MagicKey

I think if you're trying to find a balance, to control runaway costs on the hotel side (looking at the list, it is mostly hotel side benefits) - you could obviously eliminate magic bands, keep the reduced mousekeeping, and the modified Extra Magic Hours but maybe try to keep MDE.

On ticket prices, they could have raised ticket prices by $15 for everyone if they really wanted the extra revenue and kept FP+ - it actually would have given them more revenue.

I agree with you, I just feel like Genie is a necessary evil to control crowds, at least to a certain extent

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

I am cautiously optimistic that this might help standby lines so I’m hoping this is inaccurate but I feel like genie+ is basically just a $15 ticket price increase. It just seems like too low of a price to detract people and given the way Disney lays out their reservation system just an easy thing to keep on your package. If everyone has it, it’s possible genie+ doesn’t actually do anything so they might just have well raised the ticket prices.

The way genie has been laid out, the app will decide which rides you can use lightning lane on, so it may take into account where crowds are, and steer you to a lower crowded area. Fast pass was abused, people would fill up in the morning, and just hunt for more throughout the day, after they burned through the first 3. a scenario where Disney had no control over each guests next move. Genie, I believe will change that

 

[middlechild]

Walt thought through what makes an amusement park while spending time with his daughters. He saw families around him trying to share experiences. He saw traffic in clumps. The source for this is in Gabler's biography of Walt. Disneyland had weenies to draw people in, and places to sit and rides to be experienced as a family. Walt's vision is long gone. As is the American family that existed at that time. So many options today makes the leisure tour of any Disney park an exercise only for the elderly and infirm. Would Walt disapprove can be answered by the team of lawyers ready to pounce should anyone besmirch the legacy or operation of today's Disney.

 

[mercuryvenus]

You could peanut butter spread it across a bunch of things, but thinking about perks that have been cut - you could build it into where it makes sense:

1. Magical Express - hotel rooms
2. Magic Bands - maybe you do eliminate this, otherwise hotel rooms
3. Fastpass+ - Ticket prices (although did this really cost Disney more money?)
4. Reduced Mousekeeping at hotels (used to be you got a gift card if you opted to have Mousekeeping comes less often) - hotel rooms
5. Restricted Park Hopping - Not sure there is actually a cost to doing this, but ticket prices (more expensive cost for park hopping)
6. Extra Magic Hours - hotel rooms
7. Park Pass restriction for APs - again not a cost to Disney but you could increase the AP cost or allow more Park Passes depending on the tier like they're doing with MagicKey

I think if you're trying to find a balance, to control runaway costs on the hotel side (looking at the list, it is mostly hotel side benefits) - you could obviously eliminate magic bands, keep the reduced mousekeeping, and the modified Extra Magic Hours but maybe try to keep MDE.

On ticket prices, they could have raised ticket prices by $15 for everyone if they really wanted the extra revenue and kept FP+ - it actually would have given them more revenue.

Ok, but that’s really just a presentation issue. You’re paying the same amount either way; it’s just a question of whether it’s built into ticket prices or it’s a separate, itemized cost.

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

Walt thought through what makes an amusement park while spending time with his daughters. He saw families around him trying to share experiences. He saw traffic in clumps. The source for this is in Gabler's biography of Walt. Disneyland had weenies to draw people in, and places to sit and rides to be experienced as a family. Walt's vision is long gone. As is the American family that existed at that time. So many options today makes the leisure tour of any Disney park an exercise only for the elderly and infirm. Would Walt disapprove can be answered by the team of lawyers ready to pounce should anyone besmirch the legacy or operation of today's Disney.

I think Walt a vision still exists to a certain extent, just look at how many theme parks have been built around the way DL is formatted. Has it deviated? Of course, it has been over 50 years

 

[Liquidice]

Ok, but that’s really just a presentation issue. You’re paying the same amount either way; it’s just a question of whether it’s built into ticket prices or it’s a separate, itemized cost.

Sort of. For one Disney would not have needed to develop a new system at WDW, they could have just continued using FP+ and it probably would already be available again (they're having a lot of issues integrating the new Genie+ system with the Park Pass system apparently).

If Disney instead decided to raise prices of the tickets by $15 per person then it'd be the same out of pocket cost to you as buying Genie+ - however over time - ticket prices will increase and Disney will increase the cost of Genie+ as well over time - so they have an additional "knob" to turn to raise prices on us. Which I'm sure is a positive for Disney but not for us as customers. Genie+ doesn't really cost Disney anything either after the initial development save for maybe some minor O&M that is probably in the noise.

When MaxPass was introduced it started at $10 per person per day all the way back in July 2017. In January 2019 (not 100% sure on that timeline) they raised the price to $15 and in February 2020 the price went to $20. So in 3 years the price doubled - talk about inflation! Disneyland ticket prices also went up over that same time period.

Could Disney World Genie+ be $30 per person per day by 2025? Assuming your wages stays relatively the same (most likely they won't double), would you want to pay $120 per day for a party of 4 for Genie+?

If you focus on revenue though, raising ticket prices by $15 per person would result in much higher revenues than Genie+ since everyone would have to buy it - if you're trying to hit a revenue target, you could raise ticket prices by $7.50 and it would result in the same revenue as Genie+ with 50% of ticket holders buying it at $15.00

So, yes overall it appears to be the same - but there are advantages to Disney to do it this way that may not be in our best interest as customers.

Sure, Disney is a business and they need to make money - last time I checked pre-pandemic they were making plenty of money. They also need to make shareholders more and more money. I personally don't like that it is being done through reducing perks and value to guests (imho) and increasing prices at the same time.

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

Sort of. For one Disney would not have needed to develop a new system at WDW, they could have just continued using FP+ and it probably would already be available again (they're having a lot of issues integrating the new Genie+ system with the Park Pass system apparently).

If Disney instead decided to raise prices of the tickets by $15 per person then it'd be the same out of pocket cost to you as buying Genie+ - however over time - ticket prices will increase and Disney will increase the cost of Genie+ as well over time - so they have an additional "knob" to turn to raise prices on us. Which I'm sure is a positive for Disney but not for us as customers. Genie+ doesn't really cost Disney anything either after the initial development save for maybe some minor O&M that is probably in the noise.

When MaxPass was introduced it started at $10 per person per day all the way back in July 2017. In January 2019 (not 100% sure on that timeline) they raised the price to $15 and in February 2020 the price went to $20. So in 3 years the price doubled - talk about inflation! Disneyland ticket prices also went up over that same time period.

Could Disney World Genie+ be $30 per person per day by 2025? Assuming your wages stays relatively the same (most likely they won't double), would you want to pay $120 per day for a party of 4 for Genie+?

If you focus on revenue though, raising ticket prices by $15 per person would result in much higher revenues than Genie+ since everyone would have to buy it - if you're trying to hit a revenue target, you could raise ticket prices by $7.50 and it would result in the same revenue as Genie+ with 50% of ticket holders buying it at $15.00

So, yes overall it appears to be the same - but there are advantages to Disney to do it this way that may not be in our best interest as customers.

Sure, Disney is a business and they need to make money - last time I checked pre-pandemic they were making plenty of money. They also need to make shareholders more and more money. I personally don't like that it is being done through reducing perks and value to guests (imho) and increasing prices at the same time.

I think a dollar is a dollar in my opinion, people are resistant to change and change usually comes with resistance for the status quo, and some of their new programs are more of a tool than just a revenue booster, ( although I’m positive that was also a part of it). The implementation of Genie strikes on multiple fronts for Disney, but it seems to get oversimplified on these boards to just revenue

 

[TeddieM]

Sort of. For one Disney would not have needed to develop a new system at WDW, they could have just continued using FP+ and it probably would already be available again (they're having a lot of issues integrating the new Genie+ system with the Park Pass system apparently).

If Disney instead decided to raise prices of the tickets by $15 per person then it'd be the same out of pocket cost to you as buying Genie+ - however over time - ticket prices will increase and Disney will increase the cost of Genie+ as well over time - so they have an additional "knob" to turn to raise prices on us. Which I'm sure is a positive for Disney but not for us as customers. Genie+ doesn't really cost Disney anything either after the initial development save for maybe some minor O&M that is probably in the noise.

When MaxPass was introduced it started at $10 per person per day all the way back in July 2017. In January 2019 (not 100% sure on that timeline) they raised the price to $15 and in February 2020 the price went to $20. So in 3 years the price doubled - talk about inflation! Disneyland ticket prices also went up over that same time period.

Could Disney World Genie+ be $30 per person per day by 2025? Assuming your wages stays relatively the same (most likely they won't double), would you want to pay $120 per day for a party of 4 for Genie+?

If you focus on revenue though, raising ticket prices by $15 per person would result in much higher revenues than Genie+ since everyone would have to buy it - if you're trying to hit a revenue target, you could raise ticket prices by $7.50 and it would result in the same revenue as Genie+ with 50% of ticket holders buying it at $15.00

So, yes overall it appears to be the same - but there are advantages to Disney to do it this way that may not be in our best interest as customers.

Sure, Disney is a business and they need to make money - last time I checked pre-pandemic they were making plenty of money. They also need to make shareholders more and more money. I personally don't like that it is being done through reducing perks and value to guests (imho) and increasing prices at the same time.

The expectation is the price of Genie +, LL AND ticket prices will continue to rise as time goes on. Adding these features gives Disney more avenues to continue tacking on fees onto your vacation and line their pockets.