Im so mad Long rant

[eccflash]

This is in responce to some of the posts on the resorts board condemning those of us whom are upset by closings and dislocations.

first of all this whole idea of cutting programs and resorts is really getting me steamed. All of you people out there can call me selfish and unforgiving about this but I have a few points to make as I have been displaced.

One disney started cutting and planning cuts way before sept 11
Two is disney is giving les and less and wanting more.
Three is that I dont appreciate everyone using sept 11 as an excuse for whats going on.
Four I saved my money and dont like anyone saying im selfish for wanting to spend it at a certain resort or place. I dont feel privlaged just to be spending at disney.
Five when a company is in trouble you do more for your customers trying to attract more of them. You dont take away from them. If I wanted too see a play and found that due to money restrictions they were only showing half, I wouldnt go. If certain people could wake up and smell the coffie for a second they would realise that disney is not perfect and all mighty as some here think they are. I am purchasing a SERVICE from them. If they stop providing the service Ill go somewhere else.

When displaced from a resort I love they need to do something to make me happy. Forcing me to move to a resort I dont like at the same price isnt gonna work. Making me spend more for a better hotel isnt gonna work either. If I could afforded more for a better hotel in the first place I woulda. I fought with cro when they wanted to put me in CBR as I dont like it there. It wasnt untill I specifically informed them of how many days I spent there and how much MONEY that they listened and put me where I wanted to be.

I AM A SMART EDUCATED CONSUMER AND DONT LIKE BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF, BY EVEN DISNEY.

 

[hellokitty]

I can understand your frustration with Disney and the whole money thing. We work so hard to get our money and
it is a shame to see it just thrown away. I agree with the displacement part of your "rant" as well. If we could afford
the better hotel we would have booked it first. That is a great argument to use with the CRO.

If are polite and persistant we might just get what we want. Thanks for giving me the idea to tell them how much
money I am spending on them already...and since they are taking away so much they owe us at least a place
we LIKE staying!! for a price we find reasonable (preferably the same as we were going to spend)

I hope it all works out.

 

[JeffJewell]

...you have reasonable reservations about spending your money on Disney right now: so don't worry what anyone else says.

You mention you're "so mad" about things, and that's a clue as to why there's so much accusation, condescension, and vitriol from some folks who disagree with you: Disney is not a "normal" business, but a business in which people become emotionally involved.

If Disney didn't mean something more to us than simply being a company we could do business with or not, we'd not be "so mad" about the direction of the last several years (you're right, there's an awful lot of evidence that there was a trend toward seeing how little could be put into a project and still have it "succeed" to the Accountanteers satisfaction, rather than seeing how much Magic they could afford to shove into the project in the first place), we'd simply go buy someone else's competing product (there are signs this is happening already: WDW seems to be suffering a larger percentage drop in attendace post 9-11 than other Orlando parks). It's kinda ironic that folks like us, longtime Disney fans who struggle with the value decision (and in my case, who are still going to WDW this year) and happen to complain here, end up taking whippings from people we thought we had something in common with, while the folks who completely bailed out remain happily unscolded in their Portofino Bay room.

It's like a sports team. People get emotionally attached to, basically, a uniform. They will attribute all kinds of superior qualities to anyone currently wearing that uniform, and they will unleash all manner of barrage on anyone who had the gall to get emotionally attached to some other uniform.

Same thing here. Some people cannot wrap their minds around the fact that Disney is but one of many vacation choices, and one that has been steadily cutting aspects of their business that once helped to set Disney apart from its competitors.

Make your vacation decision and feel good about it, whatever it is. If you happen to speak about it here and someone pops off on you, you can ignore it: remeber that they have absolutely no clue about your own situation and needs, and that, in any case, they are posting from an emotional and wounded place, not a reasonable and logical one.

Of course, all that said, this is a violently pro-Disney board. To be honest, even though I agree with you, I would have suggested not bothering to post this on these boards. You're unlikely to get a great amount of support, and very likely to get beat up.

Jeff

 

[eccflash]

To jeff,

Thank you so much for one of the most intelligent and well thought out posts I have read in a long time. I compleatly understand totally what you are saying and agree. The reason for my post was not to offend anyone (even though I knew some would be) I just needed a place to vent frustrations.

To everyone,
Indeed I am one of many who are venting and will still go this year. Thiis is my 5th trip this year and going for 3 weeks. And I will continue to go because of something rooted withing me that I believe is in many of us here. After all this is why we are all part of this family that we have. I am one of many who wake up or rush home anxiuos to read erplies and find new info always eager to give a newcommer the same advise that was afforded me when I first came here. We all share a common goal here, simply to share (*good and bad*) our thoughts and emotions about a passion very few outsiders understand.

I am a very pro-disney advocate. I also keep the mouse blinders over my eyes most of the time but sometimes I need to look and see the way things are in the world. My main conviction is for all those saying every destination is cutting back, well there not. Places like vegas and the carribean are lowering prices and giving more to attract more people.

The main reason for my raint was to express displeasure for one simple thing. We will all fight for disney. We go to bat for them all the time. I would like to see them go to bat for us the way we do for them. Sometimes I feel betraied because they seem to turn there backs on us because they feel we owe them. We dont owe them, they owe us. And more than that they owe walt. Walt Disney is my personal hero. What would he think.

Plain and simple If you want people to come, give them a reason to.

 

[fklhou]

ecoflash

I also agree with you and Jeff in that I tihink that Disney is handling the recent cutbacks poorely. It was stupid on Disney's part to try to justify the elimination of EE with the character caravan. Most Disney regulars are very intelligent and saw throught that supposed justification in a second. I can see suspending EE for a short period of time while attendence at the park is low enough so that this does not really matter. I hope that Disney will consider resinstating EE when the attendance picks up.

 

[ArcticWildMan]

Wow! What a different atmosphere on this board! Poor Ecc was attacked on the resorts board for the same exact post. You folks here are much more level headed!

Jeff hit the nail squarely on the head! People do get emotionally involved with Disney (why else would grown adults spend thousands to visit a fantasy world ) I wish Jeff would post his most elequent reply on the resort board!

I also agree with Jeff's take on Disney's direction. I was one of the few who sent an email to Guest Relations complaining of all the cutbacks and poor decisions by Disney lately. I was surprised at first when Disney actually called me and tried to sooth my ruffled feathers. As the conversation dragged on with the CM, I realized I was just being fed a well rehearsed spin by a slick salesman/damage control CM.

 

[Planogirl]

I love the correlation between Disney and a sports team. I never thought of that! And considering how many people worship the Cowboys around here I should have.

I'm also reminded of when the Oilers left Houston and how many Houstonians were eager to help them pack just to get them leaving even faster. The owner was so detested that the protest raised was weak at best because the owner had driven the city to rage too many times. Hmmmm....

ecc, it is HARD to protest what's going on at Disney on these boards. This board has IMO the more reasonable, level-headed group of regulars. There are many very reasonable people on all of the boards but there's only a few exceptions to that reasonableness here IMO.

 

[YoHo]

eccflash, I generally understand your thoughts on this. I agree Disney is offering less in some ways.

To use this as a jumping point for some comments though. What exactly is it that Disney is asking of us that they didn't before? They haven't raised prices. they have simply reduced certain things. So they are offering less, not demanding more. Maybe I'm being nitpicky, maybe its too much turkey. But a lot of people use the phrase offering less and asking more and I just don't see the second part.


Secondly, the bad marketing may be a given. I have a hard time believing Disney was planning much of this, especially the resort closings before 911, BUT even if they did, how do you react to the Military rumours? That Port Orleans is going to be spill over for Shades of green while shades undergoes construction. Disney is probably going to make more money on the PO property right now, AND SoG will generate more later. Certainly people will be displaced and certainly the marketing and information on this hasn't been handled well, but the actions themselves don't illicit quite the same response anymore. at least not from me.



At any rate, I say again, eccflash, I understand your position. I think you are right to be upset. everyone has different expectations of their vacations and they have the right to determine how they spend their money. Just wanted to ask a few questions and start a more broad discussion.

 

[YoHo]

Oh and JJ, The Bears are the greatest Football team ever. And I have no idea what you're talking about with your sports team analogy.

 

[kamgen]

I have been reading many threads/ posts on this subject, and instead of going over my feelings on the issue in depth AGAIN, I will sum up my OPINION. (not to be taken personally)

If certain people could wake up and smell the coffie for a second they would realise that disney is not perfect and all mighty as some here think they are. I am purchasing a SERVICE from them. If they stop providing the service Ill go somewhere else.

You are right, Disney is not perfect, but ya know what? It's close enough for me.
And I smell the coffee just fine.
I agree we are purchasing service from them, and until the close ALL THEIR DOORS...they are STILL providing the service we are paying for.

and by the way...no one forces us to do anything. Disney can not force you to stay at a resort you do not like. If you feel that strongly, don't go. If the peole who are so angry about the cuts don't go, it just means less lines for people like me who just really want to be at WDW, even if they were only open for an hour.


Kamy

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

JeffJewell wrote:

It's like a sports team. People get emotionally attached to, basically, a uniform.

Scoop mentioned this type of analogy before. Now JJ mentions it, but YoHo says:

Oh and JJ, The Bears are the greatest Football team ever. And I have no idea what you're talking about with your sports team analogy.

But YoHo surprises me (I know it's tongue in cheek, but I needed a jumping in spot), especially since he's from Chicago, where this analogy is lived day in and day out in the form of the Chicago Bears and particularly, the Cubs!! But maybe, because we live it, we also know that blind devotion (which we have had since the early 1900's) should be peppered with liberal doses of Monday morning quarterbacking and armchair CEO practices. The "Manager" is almost always the scapegoat and management 'sucks' at all times!!! It's a natural fit for the current Disney Company.

If you really look at it, this devotion defies all logic. Just because I was born in Chicago is no reason to be hopelessly devoted to these losers!! Especially when these teams exchange players (and therefore loyalties) at a tremendous rate. Yet… I am!! (For instance, I know with every brain cell I own that I am heading for a BIG fall this football season. Yet… Ya never know… I mean… just a couple more wins… It could be… Just maybe…) See!!! Talk about attached!!!

And attached is a good word for it. We are, for the most part, 'attached' to our sports teams. And, by our very presence on this board, we are 'attached' to Disney. It's not like any other 'company' we do business with. If your local department store (hardware store, grocery store, etc.) made the boneheaded moves that Disney has recently made, anyone with any logic whatsoever would take their business down the street to the proverbial "other guy". But, for me at least, the Cubs, Bears and Disney have me for life, no matter what they do. But that doesn't mean that I have to like it!!! And that certainly doesn't mean I have to keep quiet about it!!!

YoHo says:

Maybe I'm being nitpicky, maybe its too much turkey. But a lot of people use the phrase offering less and asking more and I just don't see the second part.

Well, I'm guessing it's too much turkey. They've been steadily "asking more" since the Ei$ner group took control.

Kamgen writes:

I agree we are purchasing service from them, and until the close ALL THEIR DOORS...they are STILL providing the service we are paying for.

Yes!! But are those services still 'worth it'?

and by the way...no one forces us to do anything. Disney can not force you to stay at a resort you do not like. If you feel that strongly, don't go.

I hope you're at least a semi-sports fan. Because then you can read the JJ's and Scoop's analogy of 'attachment', tie it into what I have written in the above portion and see, and I mean really, fully and truly understand, that what you are talking about is NOT an option. It's almost silly to mention it!!

JJ says:

To be honest, even though I agree with you, I would have suggested not bothering to post this on these boards. You're unlikely to get a great amount of support, and very likely to get beat up.

I can't speak for the Resort Board (I rarely go there) but I can say you will definitely see your ideas supported by a great many on this board. And your right to say it supported by all!!!

Finally ArcticWildMan writes:

Wow! What a different atmosphere on this board! Poor Ecc was attacked on the resorts board for the same exact post. You folks here are much more level headed!

That's because the frequenters of the Rumors and News Board are passionate about their particular stance, but are, by and large, courteous to each other. Even the wrong thinking, hard headed, rose colored set of the first car!!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Baroni, is the question whether da Cubs win (da Cubs win!) the Series or whether they entertain you and cause you to have fun no matter their final place in the standing

I understand the question. And for most people in most other cities, that is the question. It is reasonable and logical. You would be 100% correct!!

But not here. Here, hope springs eternal! And every 'spring' we eternally hope (no, hope isn't strong enough. We KNOW…) that this year is ours!! It is not enjoying yourself that is the ultimate goal. It is the "series"!! That's all that matters. And every year is 'our year'. Until mid-August or so. Then reality sets in. Sort of. But we are still a city counting down the old mathematical elimination. Only then does the deep depression set in.

And, lastly, how would you answer these questions if I replaced "da Cubs" with "da Disney"?

I have already gone through the process! And I find that it is the beginning of September. We haven't been mathematically eliminated yet. We could still take it all!! We just have to win all the remaining games and the other guys have to lose all but one!! MY GOD!!! We still have a chance!! It's not too late!!! This year can still be 'our year'!!! I'm going to go out and celebrate!!! Hey-hey!!! We're still in it!!!

There. Now you can see inside a truly demented Cub fan (or Bear fan) mind. Pretty sick, isn't it? I have no problem, whatsoever, thinking of my beloved Disney in the same manner.

Well, you asked for 'Thoughts'.

 

[JeffJewell]

Thoughts?

Not today thanks, I really need to cut back.

hoping that you attend one piece of a World Series championship or simply because you just love being at the park

I think this particular question is a stinky thing. Mostly because it fails to consider both the Chisox and minor league, college, or high school ball as alternatives to the Cubs (also because a Series title isn't the sole criterion upon which to judge the "quality" of either a baseball club or a trip to its home stadium, but trying to consider those facts would only muddy the water for the point I'm about to try to make).

If the Cubbies and Chisox are both having less than stellar years, and if there is no previous emotional attachment to either team, which park would you attend on a nice June afternoon? I think that equation will depend on things like location and the costs of tickets and parking.

If the Cubs were the only game in town and they reacted to poor attendance by playing seven inning games and serving eight ounce beers and nine inch footlong hotdogs while still charging the same prices, they might very well get away with it to a large extent. With the Sox as an option, however, such policies would be nearly certain to send the fan with no previous emotional attachment away from Wrigley, and might even encourage a few of the slightly less fervent Cub fans to test other waters, at least until the situation at Wrigley returned to what they felt was "normal."

That's the main problem with some of Disney's recent actions: they act as though they were still the only game in town. They ain't. We can argue back and forth about whether Disney's lead has completely evaporated or is simply waning, but the plain fact is that these cuts are going to cause some people to delay their trips, some people to cancel their trips, and yes, even some people to switch to another theme park destination.

Jeff

 

[Captain Crook]

...but the plain fact is that these cuts are going to cause some people to delay their trips and yes, even some people to switch to another theme park destination.

Sorry, but why would they do that? The other theme parks are facing the same problems as Disney, making the same cuts & showing the same disregard for their guests. Not to mention charging the same in entrance, the same for a coke & a meal, parking, etc., so it isn't like Disney is just imploding and they aren't operating in a vaccum. They are making their moves just THE SAME as their competetion and the fact is we still don't really see the competetion as a viable threat, do we? They still don't have the variety & magnitude of even a reduced Disney. Sure there are some that prefer IOA to Disney but it's still only one park vs. four (as nobody prefers US over Disney that I know of).

 

[YoHo]

JeffJewell, You clearly don't understand the Dynamics of Cubs/Sox I would rather Die a disturbingly grotesque death then enter that Food Court known as Comisky field. (actually, that's not true, I'm from the western suburbs, but my above statement would ring true for many a Cub Fan.)

Currently, The White Sox Charges a disturbingly small amount for their tickets. Whereas the Cubs charge fairly standard prices. White Sox fans are just different from Cubs fans.

At any rate, Landbaron, I agree with you in a sense. Does that make Ei$ner Disney's Dave Wannsted or Mike McCaskey? (All you South FLordia guys, I pitty the Dolphins and What JJ left you with.)

If that's the case, then I eagerly await Some member of the Disney Family to come out and announce that They are hiring the Proverbial Dick Jauron.

Oh, and Landbaron, Bears Fans tend not to act as hopeful as Cubs fans. Its been to Long Since Da Coach was here. It wasn't until last night that the Bears were even getting respect in this league.

Finally, I meant that they aren't asking for more in the face of the current cutbacks. They haven't raised ticket prices. I realize you and a few others have a long memory, but the fact remains that most of the people crawling out of the woodwork and entering Car 3&4 are mad about recent events and a couple month's ago would have been in Car 1. Many would probably go back to car 1 once things return to normal.

 

[Another Voice]

I really believe the current round of cuts (which were all planned well before September by the way) are not the real cause of people’s anger. A lot has changed and these cuts simply serve as the “focus point” for a lot of emotions and feelings people have been developing over the last several years.

First, a lot of people are just not interested in traveling right now and may be subconsciously looking for reasons to postpone trips. It’s not a fear of traveling, it’s a wish to remain near home and it’s perfectly normal.

For the last several years there has been a string of small but constant cuts going on at WDW. An attraction here, an hour there, a restaurant over there, a little touch in this corner (anyone remember when each resort had individually themed soaps?). None of the cuts were important on there own, and many might not have been even noticeable. But the combined weight has finally hit a certain “tipping point” where the their total mass has become noticeable. At the same time prices have continued to rise and the competition has gotten better. Disney’s own internal research shows that the “perceived value” of a Disney vacation (their term by the way) was serious problem for them starting this spring. People were beginning to question what they were getting for their money. And it’s not just WDW; there are vast empty walkways stretching throughout California Adventure that proves Disney’s calculations are seriously off.

Lastly, I think it’s also just a case of market saturation. While there will always be exceptions, a lot of people have just made too many visits in too short of a time. There is a certain level of boredom setting in for many and the desire to go just isn’t as strong as it was before. And Disney feeds that feeling by not only not offering anything new, but by actually offering less. And worse, they hit highly visible and valuable items: a lot of people use early entry and many also use it as a way to justify the premium price for the Disney resorts.

I can not fault Disney for trying to make adjustments for the current situation, but I think they chose their path without thought for the consequences or concern for their guests. Shortsighted thinking only makes bad situations worse and I afraid about what this February will hold.

 

[JeffJewell]

...AV said largely what I wanted to say in response to your posts. I suspect that AV's connections lend some posters to credit his points with more validity than my own, so to a great extent, I'm going to take a "what he said" position.

But I can't let Chad get off scot free with this one.

We would probably continue to go to WDW if Disney never added a single attraction.

First of all, I understand. I've alluded to the fact that my family's trip (precisely four days from this moment, Suzy and I should be taking off for MCO) would be Orlando bound even if we just got to take a couple pictures of each other on the smoking ruins of Cinderella Castle: our decision to go on this trip is based almost purely on what Disney has meant to us in the past, not a rational decision-making process based on the product WDW offers at this moment. I do have a very personal emotional attachment to Disney.

I'm with you on this one.

But.

I don't believe that that feeling is universal (no pun intended). If the current cuts are enough to make a group like ours at least re-consider our plans (and no, it wasn't my suggestion: my mother was talking to a family that had just returned and a travel agent friend of hers. The stories she heard from them led her to believe that cancelling was the only reasonable option, and that I likely had done it already. All my friends in Car #1 will be heartened to know I talked her down), it stands to reason that there are certainly folks with less emotional attachment that took more precipitous action.

It's really interesting, 'scoop: as we dance our little dance here, it seems to me more and more that the biggest difference in the way we view Disney is that you seem to believe that your emotional attachment to Disney, reflected in your quote above, is the way _everyone_ feels about Disney; whereas I believe that my emotional attachment is actually a somewhat out of the ordinary thing, and the "normals" are actually going to judge the relative value of their Disney vacations far more objectively than than we judge our own.

Jeff

 

[kamgen]

DVC-Landbaron
Since you are wondering...yes I am a sports fan and I DO understand attachment. I mean, try being a Lions fan for 5 seconds. If you aren't attached you would jsut give up hope! LOL!

For people like me, NOT going to Disney is NOT an option. But I think that for those who find nothing better to do than complain about it, it may be better for the rest of us if they stay home, or vacation somewhere else. Life is too short to complain about your vacation spots. If you are so angry, how can you enjoy yourself???

As a Lions fan (yes I will admit it!), you come to terms with the fact that complaining will NOT change things, and it won't with Disney either. You either love it, good and bad, or you "pick another team!" LOL!

Kamy

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

kamgen

I mean, try being a Lions fan for 5 seconds.

I feel your pain!!

For people like me, NOT going to Disney is NOT an option.

Me too! That's the whole point.

But I think that for those who find nothing better to do than complain about it, it may be better for the rest of us if they stay home, or vacation somewhere else.

But I have a vested interest (or 'attachment', if you will) with MY Disney. I do travel other places occasionally. But I LOVE Disney. That's why I don't want to see it chipped away. I don't want to see it fade.

Life is too short to complain about your vacation spots.

I'm hoping that by becoming vocal about it, the general consensus of the masses will force a change in Disney administration. And with just a little bit of luck, they'll get back on track and remember some of their basic philosophical tenets. I know it's a long shot, but it feels so much better than turning a blind eye to the problem until it becomes so overwhelming that I can't feel the 'Magic' any more.

If you are so angry, how can you enjoy yourself???

I really don't know. I think I may be a little crazy! (at least many here think so!) Or I may be in 'The-Nile' (Jungle Cruise Speak). Anyway, if you doubt that it is possible, go back and check out my "State of the Parks Address". They are trip reports that I post on this board (with the kind indulgence of our friendly neighborhood moderators) whenever I return from WDW. They simply OOZE magic and pixie dust. The only draw back is from the passengers in car number one. For a week or two I find myself in their back seat! (But they always make me sit over the hump!! )

You either love it, good and bad, or you "pick another team!"

Well, I do love it. But I find that it's getting harder and harder. Take a little detour to this LINK and see if maybe you're not a little disappointed with their performance lately. I realize that September 11th has everyone cutting them a little slack (even me in a previous thread) but you have to keep in mind that many of these were planned well before that fateful day. And the notification (or lack of) they gave the public, and the remaining faithful who didn't cancel their reservations, should certainly give you pause.

 

[YoHo]

you know, I feel the pain about the Lions, I've been their recently, At the same time, They better add at least 2 more losses there, because if the Bears lose to them I will be quite upset.