Military Continues to Discharge Gay Linguists

[eclectics]

Its not going to change. Accept it.

Oh, it will change. Not tomorrow, not next year, not next President, maybe not even the President after that, but it will change. It's just a matter of time. And I will do my little bit by helping elect candidates that will help it along.

 

[LukenDC]

Oh, it will change. Not tomorrow, not next year, not next President, maybe not even the President after that, but it will change. It's just a matter of time. And I will do my little bit by helping elect candidates that will help it along.

I agree. It will change.

 

[salmoneous]

But Dawn, earlier you suggesting that anything that caused sexual tension in the military was a bad thing. Now you are saying that having straight women in the military causing sexual tenion is AOK with you. But having gay people in the military causing sexual tenion is bad.

Doesn't that seem discriminitory to you?

 

[BuckNaked]

But Dawn, earlier you suggesting that anything that caused sexual tension in the military was a bad thing. Now you are saying that having straight women in the military causing sexual tenion is AOK with you. But having gay people in the military causing sexual tenion is bad.

Doesn't that seem discriminitory to you?

Good question. My guess is that it could have something to do with that fact that women make up approximately 15% of the active duty force. That's quite a bit to lose if one decides that we hussies make it too hard for the poor men to keep their marriage vows.

 

[katerkat]

I don't want gays in the military. My husband so far has not been tempted by the straight women in the military, so obviously he's secretly gay and will cheat on me with the first gay man he's deployed with.

 

[BuckNaked]

I don't want gays in the military. My husband so far has not been tempted by the straight women in the military, so obviously he's secretly gay and will cheat on me with the first gay man he's deployed with.

Uh-oh.

What goes TDY stays TDY...

 

[smartestnumber5]

I have a slightly OT question. Do they enforce the no gay policy during times of draft? I'm guessing they do, but I can't understand how they had anyone left to actually serve if they do. I mean, as far as I understand during Vietnam people were shooting off feet and fleeing the country to avoid being drafted, yet no one thought of simply saying "I'm gay"?!?!

I once asked my father (who served in Germany during Vietnam and was very unhappy about it). He didn't really have an answer. So anyone? I mean, come on. Wouldn't that have been a great ticket out? Hey, if it were me I'd have had sex right in front of the draft board if needed!

 

[LukenDC]

I don't want gays in the military. My husband so far has not been tempted by the straight women in the military, so obviously he's secretly gay and will cheat on me with the first gay man he's deployed with.

He would be a fool to cheat when he has such a beautiful family.

 

[MrVisible]

You know what?

I'm glad this country has a 'no gays in the military' policy. I may be beyond draft age, but my boyfriend is not. And I sure as hell don't want him to risk his life for a country where he's not considered a real citizen.

It's the one tangible benefit to being gay in this country right now. "You sleep with people of the same gender? Sorry, you can't get blown up by an IED on a backstreet in a wretched city where everybody hates you. Next!"

You all go off and fight your idiotic imperialist wars. Send your sons and daughters off to die for the corporate interests that are bankrupting you. Incite the wrath of an entire subcontinent, an entire religion, in the name of spreading democracy, and watch democracy deteriorate under your feet because of it. And tally up the profits that each of those coffins coming home brings to the oil companies and their government cronies.

Meanwhile, ask any of the troops in combat right now if he'd like more men deployed along with them, and I bet they wouldn't give a great ******* whether they were straight or gay. Ask them if they care that the intelligence they're getting comes from a gay linguist or a straight one, and they'd just care that it was good intel. They'd just like a better chance of getting home alive.

How many of those coffins are the price you pay for prejudice?

 

[MrVisible]

I have a slightly OT question. Do they enforce the no gay policy during times of draft? I'm guessing they do, but I can't understand how they had anyone left to actually serve if they do. I mean, as far as I understand during Vietnam people were shooting off feet and fleeing the country to avoid being drafted, yet no one thought of simply saying "I'm gay"?!?!

I once asked my father (who served in Germany during Vietnam and was very unhappy about it). He didn't really have an answer. So anyone? I mean, come on. Wouldn't that have been a great ticket out? Hey, if it were me I'd have had sex right in front of the draft board if needed!

From an article on the subject

Stateside, other gay men did everything in their power to avoid military service. Rey Rivera (a.k.a. Sylvia Rivera, one of the transvestites arrested at the Stonewall riots) was drafted in 1967 at 18 and decided to report to the local draft board in full drag - high heels, miniskirt, and red nails. The sergeants in charge assumed Rivera was a woman. But Rivera corrected them and was promptly sent to the psychiatrist, who asked if there was a problem with his sexuality. "I don't know. I know I like men," Rivera replied. "I know I like to wear dresses. But I don't know what any (problem) is." The doctor quickly stamped "HOMOSEXUAL" in red across Rivera's draft notice.

Claiming to be gay became a popular way for straight men to avoid the draft. One draft resisters' manual from 1968 dispensed stereotypes and epithets along with advice: "Act like a man under tight control. Deny you're a ***, deny it again quickly, then stop, as if buttoning your lip.... And maybe twice, no more than three times over a half-hour interview, just the slightest little flick of the wrist."

At that time, it was much less socially acceptable to be gay. Nowadays, when gay people are much more open and the prejudice in society springs from fewer bigots every year, nobody's going to mind having to claim to be gay to get out of the draft.

So the government has a stake in keeping prejudice alive. Interesting, huh?

 

[bsmcneil]

And how does that have anything to do with what I said? I am pointing out to you that fraternization between troops has always been a problem that must be dealt with in a consistant manner. Evidence that sexual activity exists are the resultant pregnancies. Adding another group that would violate that prohibition would only be more problematic.

Do the things you say make sense in your head? Men and women sleeping together is a problem - but one we'll get over. But allowing gay men and women - which does not necessarily equal them having sex with other enlisted folks - is a bad idea. Logically, you've gone awry. First, there are already gay men and women in the military. Some sleep with enlisted men and women, some do not. That's the exact same as straight men and women. Second, allowing gay members does not mean condoning anything - just as allowing straight military men and women does not condone fraternization. Third, you assume that these people will add even more problems. What about the problems of morale that some people deal with because they are forced to stay in the closet? Couldn't this potentially even out? Ya know, you conservatives can think whatever you want. But I'd much rather you people say that you don't want ___ for the honest reason than some stupid, illogical reason. Simply say, or write, the words, "I don't want out gays in the military because I think what they do is wrong." It's okay, it's okay. We really do understand that some people refuse to try to accept others.

 

[bsmcneil]

...principles, who you kiddin'? This country continues its' discrimination of gays and lesbians in all areas because of stupidity and a deep religious desire to hate somebody.

I don't know you - so you may have a totally legit reason for this. But I have to get this off my chest. How ironic is it that you comment on a desire to hate someone and your screenname is Uncle Remus. Now, I know I know - Song of the South isn't about hate. And, for all I know, you could be taking back the idea of Uncle Remus and celebrating it. But it just throws me off a little bit...

 

[bsmcneil]

Its not going to change. Accept it.

Lots of people said this already, but I'll echo. Of course it'll change. Anyone who thinks otherwise is blinded by both the past and the future. Do you really think that the world will continue to discriminate against a people? "The arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice" (MLK/Theodore Parker). I really wish you could see beyond now and really understand that the prejudices we hold will seem stupid and benign to people 10, 30, 50, 100 years from now.

 

[cardaway]

But Dawn, earlier you suggesting that anything that caused sexual tension in the military was a bad thing. Now you are saying that having straight women in the military causing sexual tenion is AOK with you. But having gay people in the military causing sexual tenion is bad.

Doesn't that seem discriminitory to you?

And very hypocritical.

 

[Uncle Remus]

I don't know you - so you may have a totally legit reason for this. But I have to get this off my chest. How ironic is it that you comment on a desire to hate someone and your screenname is Uncle Remus. Now, I know I know - Song of the South isn't about hate. And, for all I know, you could be taking back the idea of Uncle Remus and celebrating it. But it just throws me off a little bit...

Funny, you don't make sense to me either! Obviously you haven't read Uncle Remus' Stories of the Old Plantation or you lack the ability of critical thought.

 

[bsmcneil]

Funny, you don't make sense to me either! Obviously you haven't read Uncle Remus' Stories of the Old Plantation or you lack the ability of critical thought.

Because I have a problem with caricutures of slaves, ex-slaves and those held on plantations by "share"cropping I lack the ability of critical thought? Right. Since you didnt engage my actual comment, I suspect this conversation is done.

 

[Uncle Remus]

Like I said, you don't make much sense in your original post that I referenced. I'm too old and too experienced with others' ignorance and quick but limited judgment to bother with you. We agree the conversation is done.

 

[Psychometrika]

I'm not jumping into this enlightened dialogue (?) but I wanted to mention that there is a difference between the Uncle Remus stories and his/their portrayals in the Disney movie. The Uncle Remus stories themselves stand as one of many testiments to the robustness, creativity and determination of African slaves held under the vilest of conditions. The stories, far from shameful exhibitions of degrading stereotypes, are part of the oral histories of the time and should be celebrated, not feared or rejected.

Personally, I believe the movie is well done overall. The portrayal of the "happy slave" is unfortunate (many would argue more than unfortunate), but the character of Remus during the storytelling was splendid. Further, the portrayals in the film are no different than others of that era in film and race relations. If anything, the film should be released and become part of the conversation on how minorities have been portrayed over the years and how we can understand the roots of stereotyping and racism through them.

All that being said, Disney released the film years back across Europe and Asia. While it has since been pulled, it seems clear they are concerned with offending African Americans, but not really concerned with the greater conversation of race in society. Money talks, as usual. Sorry to be off topic, but there you go.

 

[ntsammy5]

There were at least seven Arabic linguists dismissed last year for homosexuality.

Sorry, bigotry is not an acceptable principle ever.

I wonder who checks? By the way the correct terminology for "military regulations" is UCMJ -- Uniform Code of Military Justice. After having served for 36 years in the US Army, mostly in infantry units, I couldn't honestly say what the UCMJ has to say about gay/lesbian soldiers. In all that time it never came up. No pun intended.

 

[Viki]

Hi, friends, I just want to assure everyone that I am monitoring this thread closely and am so far fine with way this conversation is progressing.

I say that as a lesbian, as the mother of two African-American children and as a Dis board mod.

I appreciate that this discussion calls up passion on all sides and has also invited keen intellectual debate. As such, it's all good.

Please proceed.