My Journey to 50 miles (2nd attempt)... (comments welcome)

[disneygpa]

That's the one. It's one of my most referenced running books I have in my library. Just a wealth of good information. The one hard part is the plans are very very math heavy and are not simple to follow. So it does take a bit of work to understand it. And read the whole book because there are rules and such on how to execute the plan, so simply looking at the plan could lead you down a path he didn't intend for you to take.

I went ahead and ordered it. I'm sure it will only lead to more questions from me!

First run after 50k last night. 3 miles @ EA. Turned out to be a little slower than EA and I'm ok with that. I was just trying out the legs. Run felt great! Almost effortless. Almost. Legs felt good for the most part and so did the rest of the body.

Still a weird tightness in the right hamstring. I may break down and go get a massage. (I've never gotten one) The tightness feels really deep down in the muscle, like almost to the bone deep. I'm really not sure what else to do about it, other than stretching.



Just an observation to share. Sometime last week. I think it was maybe Thursday or Friday. I realized that I didn't ache anywhere and then last night when I went to do my stretching I realized I was more bendy than I had been in a long time. I guess all the training had taken a little toll on me. The overall tightness had crept up so slowly during training that I hadn't realized. I've been slacking on my morning stretching routine and I think it shows. I'll be getting up early enough now to make sure I stretch before my day starts. It's just so dang hard to get out of that comfy bed!!

 

[disneygpa]

2 very easy miles with Donna last night. Turned out a little slower than EA, but that's ok. It was fun to get her out running with me again!



I know that most of the journaling and running discussion on the board is for 5k and above distances.

Given that I used to be a sprinter in high school, I'm curious if anyone has tried to train and run for the sprint races? I haven't really done a lot of research but it really seems limited as to when you could possibly race. Might be a whole lot of work for only one or two meets a year. Just curious.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Given that I used to be a sprinter in high school, I'm curious if anyone has tried to train and run for the sprint races? I haven't really done a lot of research but it really seems limited as to when you could possibly race. Might be a whole lot of work for only one or two meets a year. Just curious.

The mile is the shortest distance I've trained for as an adult. I found this website that might help you find events in your area.

https://www.directathletics.com/upcoming_meets.html
I used the filter for "public/individual" to find some. Although, I don't know how "open" open is with COVID going on right now. I'm not even really sure how "open" open is during more normal times.

 

[disneygpa]

Thanks Billy, I was just thinking about what my future in running might look like eventually. With our upcoming move to FL it looks like track and field might be something fun to try at some point. Might be fun to go back to my roots and see how sprinting works out. The only thing I'm not crazy about is all the training and then the race is over in seconds.

Wednesday I did 3 miles by myself. Decided to throw in the long hill on my loop run just to see how it felt. I definitely felt it more than the flat sections but not so bad that I'm super concerned. It was just such a nice day out and the running in the sunshine felt so good I wanted to see how the hill felt.



As typical, my first mile was too fast. The other 2 were better but not quite slow enough. Tonight is a run/walk with Donna. Should be an easy night.

 

[disneygpa]

Saturday - 3 mile run/walk with Donna. Threw in some strides during the last mile just for fun! She loves strides!

Sunday - was supposed to be 3 mile run/walk and the 4 mile at LR. But decided instead to go hike the middle 8.5 miles of Chuckanut. It was a beautiful spring day and Donna wanted to see the trail. She did great on it and confirmed her belief that I might have more than a screw or two loose in my brain.

Monday - nice easy 3 mile walk with Donna. Was going to run the 3 miles by myself, but I talked her into a long walk!

@DopeyBadger Billy.... The son-in-laws are signing up to do this http://www.skydiveultra.com/florida/index.html and they want me to join in the fun!

Now, I could take the easy way out and do the skydive with a 10k but that doesn't really seem like something I would do. The boys are thinking 100k but I'm thinking 50 miler.

I know that anything is possible with proper training. But my training gets a little more complicated by training with Donna on the run/walks.

Given my challenges with the 50k, do you think a 50 miler is stupidly out of the question? I realize it might be a stretch.... but I think I'm up to the challenge!

 

[DopeyBadger]

@DopeyBadger Billy.... The son-in-laws are signing up to do this http://www.skydiveultra.com/florida/index.html and they want me to join in the fun!

Now, I could take the easy way out and do the skydive with a 10k but that doesn't really seem like something I would do. The boys are thinking 100k but I'm thinking 50 miler.

I know that anything is possible with proper training. But my training gets a little more complicated by training with Donna on the run/walks.

Given my challenges with the 50k, do you think a 50 miler is stupidly out of the question? I realize it might be a stretch.... but I think I'm up to the challenge!

Alright, so it looks like you skydive, and then you race on a 7.25 mile flat dirt/grass loop. So 50.5 miles. It has a cutoff of 14 hours. So that's a 16:38 min/mile average pace (the 100k has the same pace cutoff of 16:38). We had previously estimated your 50 mile fitness at around 12 hours simply based on the Chuckanut 50k (which isn't going to be completely translatable) using McMillan's values. A 2 hour buffer doesn't seem like a ton of extra room to work with. So it's certainly possible, but there's a reasonable chance you wouldn't finish under the cutoff. Hard to say 8 months in advance and based on my (and your) limited experience with ultras.

I'd say it feels like a bit of a leap at the moment. I guess it depends on how risk adverse and rewarding you want the experience to be. And then obviously trying to weave your training in with Donna's run/walk is there too. Although, I'm thinking run/walk for the race (50 miler?) is likely the way to go here anyways. So that may not be that big of a deal in the end. Given how the training went at a 13:00 min/mile effort, I'm thinking we should try and pull back on the pacing even more. Possibly something like Donna's easy/LR pace around a 14:45 with nearly 14 min run pace and 17 min walk pace at 60/30. Is the goal for you and the SILs to run together?

It also looks like you aren't guaranteed to be grouped together in the plane unless you're in the same event and register at the same time.

 

[disneygpa]

Alright, so it looks like you skydive, and then you race on a 7.25 mile flat dirt/grass loop. So 50.5 miles. It has a cutoff of 14 hours. So that's a 16:38 min/mile average pace (the 100k has the same pace cutoff of 16:38). We had previously estimated your 50 mile fitness at around 12 hours simply based on the Chuckanut 50k (which isn't going to be completely translatable) using McMillan's values. A 2 hour buffer doesn't seem like a ton of extra room to work with. So it's certainly possible, but there's a reasonable chance you wouldn't finish under the cutoff. Hard to say 8 months in advance and based on my (and your) limited experience with ultras.

I'd say it feels like a bit of a leap at the moment. I guess it depends on how risk adverse and rewarding you want the experience to be. And then obviously trying to weave your training in with Donna's run/walk is there too. Although, I'm thinking run/walk for the race (50 miler?) is likely the way to go here anyways. So that may not be that big of a deal in the end. Given how the training went at a 13:00 min/mile effort, I'm thinking we should try and pull back on the pacing even more. Possibly something like Donna's easy/LR pace around a 14:45 with nearly 14 min run pace and 17 min walk pace at 60/30. Is the goal for you and the SILs to run together?

It also looks like you aren't guaranteed to be grouped together in the plane unless you're in the same event and register at the same time.

Thanks for the input!

I'm really going to have to think about this. I have tons of different options. I could try and run run a half or full or 50k. Being that the route is super flat that might be a good choice and see if I can get close to my estimated times. Or I could run the 10k and be moral support/crew for the SIL's.

I'd really like to try the 50 miler at some point. But the more I think about it the more I would want to run run it and I'm not sure if I'm ready to try that and maybe I never will be.

As far as running with the boys, I really doubt they will want to slow down for the old man. It would be more likely that they would pat me on the back on their way by when they lap me!!!

I guess my next question might be is there a way to train to get enough stamina to run a 50 miler without overtraining and breaking myself? Assuming I didn't have to run Donna's run/walks with her?

 

[DopeyBadger]

I guess my next question might be is there a way to train to get enough stamina to run a 50 miler without overtraining and breaking myself? Assuming I didn't have to run Donna's run/walks with her?

Honestly, I feel like it's something you could potentially build up to. But I also wouldn't discount that 50 miles is certainly a really long way. You've got 42 weeks between now and this event. That puts the halfway mark somewhere around Labor Day. What about going back to the traditional approach instead? Focus on good training, but not exceeding 150-180 min in a training run. Then attempt to run (or run/walk) a flatter trail than was Chuckanut at like 14 min/mile and see how it feels for 20-30-40 miles. More than anything, that'll give you an idea what kind of "minimal" training you could do and still attempt something in Jan 2022. Kind of like a Chuckanut 50k training plan vs 150-180 min max run training plan philosophy. I'm looking at the training of someone who recently ran a 100k in 14 hrs and yet never went further than 16.5 miles (150 min) or 7.5 total hrs in training (other than a marathon a few months prior). So I know the philosophy can still work on a n=1.

 

[disneygpa]

Honestly, I feel like it's something you could potentially build up to. But I also wouldn't discount that 50 miles is certainly a really long way. You've got 42 weeks between now and this event. That puts the halfway mark somewhere around Labor Day. What about going back to the traditional approach instead? Focus on good training, but not exceeding 150-180 min in a training run. Then attempt to run (or run/walk) a flatter trail than was Chuckanut at like 14 min/mile and see how it feels for 20-30-40 miles. More than anything, that'll give you an idea what kind of "minimal" training you could do and still attempt something in Jan 2022. Kind of like a Chuckanut 50k training plan vs 150-180 min max run training plan philosophy. I'm looking at the training of someone who recently ran a 100k in 14 hrs and yet never went further than 16.5 miles (150 min) or 7.5 total hrs in training (other than a marathon a few months prior). So I know the philosophy can still work on a n=1.

Thanks Billy. I'm still kicking this around.

We already have the half in August. The son in laws want to run a full in October. Donna wants to do Dopey if it's live and we can get a spot. And then this would be 20(ish) days after Dopey.

Then I have to factor in the boringness of the route. Even from their own description it is flat farmland with no shade. I have to admit 7 laps around 7 miles of boring flat farmland sounds somewhat taxing.

Also, I'm wondering how much effect the skydive has on the running. I'm sure there is a huge adrenalin rush during the skydive, especially since I've never done it. So what happens to your energy level after that huge adrenalin spike?

I'm kind of just leaning toward a half or full and the skydive. Seems like that would be much more enjoyable at the end of the day.

I need a nice long run to think this through.

Tuesday was 2 miles @ my EA with Donna. Nice and relaxing for me, and probably about the top of Donna's training zone for now. Don't get me wrong, she did great! But was a little winded at the end of the second mile.



First mile was almost spot on, but the 2nd mile ended up being a touch fast. That may have been Donna's fastest mile ever but I don't really have the stat's to back that up. Overall a great day for a run! It was sunny and 62. Breeze was a little chilly still.

Tonight I run 3 alone. Maybe I can figure out the skydive run after that.....

 

[DopeyBadger]

We already have the half in August. The son in laws want to run a full in October. Donna wants to do Dopey if it's live and we can get a spot. And then this would be 20(ish) days after Dopey.

That is undoubtedly a lot on the plate. You could treat Dopey as "peak" training for the endurance event by running Donna's easy paces. And having the HM and M in the Fall isn't unreasonable either. Of course things would get tricky trying to add in a 20-30-40 mile test race somewhere in there near Labor Day. I guess it depends on your goal for the marathon and which is potentially more important to you. The M in October or the Jan 2022 ultra. Because you could sacrifice performance on the October M for the test run near Labor Day.

 

[disneygpa]

That is undoubtedly a lot on the plate. You could treat Dopey as "peak" training for the endurance event by running Donna's easy paces. And having the HM and M in the Fall isn't unreasonable either. Of course things would get tricky trying to add in a 20-30-40 mile test race somewhere in there near Labor Day. I guess it depends on your goal for the marathon and which is potentially more important to you. The M in October or the Jan 2022 ultra. Because you could sacrifice performance on the October M for the test run near Labor Day.

I'm going to take my 12 days of vacation to think this over.

Not going to lie, it's intimidating.

Given how tired I was at the end of Chuckanut, I know that pain and fatigue will be a real challenge toward the end of the 50 miler regardless of training.

I really have to consider the time it will take to train. Not just the running but also the stretching and cross training. I'm guessing it could be upwards of 18 hours a week towards the peak of training.

Of course, if you don't set high goals how do you find your limits..... Maybe laying on a beach in Hawaii will help me find the answer!?

 

[DopeyBadger]

I really have to consider the time it will take to train. Not just the running but also the stretching and cross training. I'm guessing it could be upwards of 18 hours a week towards the peak of training.

Maybe, or maybe not. Again, if the theory of "only" doing a 150-180 min max long run holds for an ultra event, then in theory it's possible you'd be way less than 18 hours per week. Something on the order of 8-10 hrs maximum. But we don't know until we try a test of some sorts. For Chuckanut, the combination of elevation gain and mileage had me convinced that we might need to do more. But I can see a different argument for a flat ultra, and I can also see an argument that we may have been too aggressive in training for Chuckanut.

 

[disneygpa]

Maybe, or maybe not. Again, if the theory of "only" doing a 150-180 min max long run holds for an ultra event, then in theory it's possible you'd be way less than 18 hours per week. Something on the order of 8-10 hrs maximum. But we don't know until we try a test of some sorts. For Chuckanut, the combination of elevation gain and mileage had me convinced that we might need to do more. But I can see a different argument for a flat ultra, and I can also see an argument that we may have been too aggressive in training for Chuckanut.

Thanks Billy!

I know a week ago I was thinking about seeing how fast I could run a mile and now I'm thinking about 50 miles. Donna's elective surgery has been postponed so there's no need for me to fill 6 weeks trying to get to the fast mile now and I could start right away training for the 50.

I'm leaning toward doing the 50 but I also know it is going to be tough. And maybe I'm just afraid of the aches and pains or the failure if I DNF.

I've been thinking a lot about your input and positive words!

I made a lot of mistakes during Chuckanut. Not being prepared for the weather changing so drastically, probably didn't take in enough fuel for the conditions, not doing enough cross training including core workouts for example..... I'm doing more research on fueling, I know I'm going to need more than GU's. I'm looking into more and different exercises for runners.

I'm thinking about taking a pass on the possible marathon in October with the boys, or possibly just using it for a training run.

I have a trail up here that is just over 30 miles in distance with only about 650 ft of elevation gain. It used to be an old railroad track, but is now a nice wide paved trail. I was thinking I could pencil that in for just before labor day? Possibly September 2nd ish. I'm heading to Vegas for the Labor day weekend and I could use that time as recovery. That would leave me something like 20 weeks to train for the skydive run.

I know I can't put off the decision forever.... Starting sooner rather than later would probably be best.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I'm doing more research on fueling, I know I'm going to need more than GU's.

In my experience of being on the trainer for 5-6 hrs, and from what I've read from others who have done ultras, there comes a point where GUs, Tailwind, Maurten, etc. just isn't all that palatable. So a good mix of calories/carbs from different sources is beneficial. Real foods come in handy. When I was on my bike, I would eat PB sandwiches or PB bars from Nature Valley. Something to keep in mind.

I know I can't put off the decision forever.... Starting sooner rather than later would probably be best.

This down time is good. It allows the body to rest, repair, and additionally allows the training load to drop. Such that you can get in good training in August. So take it easy for a little longer.

I have a trail up here that is just over 30 miles in distance with only about 650 ft of elevation gain. It used to be an old railroad track, but is now a nice wide paved trail. I was thinking I could pencil that in for just before labor day? Possibly September 2nd ish. I'm heading to Vegas for the Labor day weekend and I could use that time as recovery. That would leave me something like 20 weeks to train for the skydive run.

Seems like a good test for proof of concept. Maybe even a little extra to stretch it to 35 or 40 miles. As long as you can have a good support system like you had at Chuckanut.

 

[disneygpa]

So I've been looking for a way to add distance to the Centennial Trail without adding it at the end.

Mentally, I just want to run to the southern end of the trail and be done. Anyway, there is an airport at about mile 9, just off the trail. I can leave the trail, run over to the airport and run around the trail at the airport. This would add about 6.5 to 7 miles to the Centennial trail for a total of somewhere around 37 miles.

If I decide to go ahead with the attempt, my plan would be to take Thursday and Friday off work so I can start the run Thursday morning then recover Labor Day weekend by laying around the pool at the Venetian in Vegas!!!

Also, I signed myself and Donna up for a 5k on May 22nd.

https://www.webscorer.com/register?pid=1&raceid=232316
We'll treat it as a fun run as it is virtual. I wouldn't have signed up for another virtual, but this supports a charity that is near and dear to my heart.
Flags for the fallen.
As a Navy vet and the father in law of a Marine that was KIA in Afghanistan I have a soft spot for military fund raising. If you aren't doing anything in late May and want to sign up, I'm sure they'll appreciate any support.

 

[disneygpa]

Wow! Have I really been off the boards for 16 days? Crazy!

Just got back from a VERY relaxing, fun, adventurous, beautiful trip to Hawaii!

I did some easy runs while there but mostly the point was to get away and relax!

I took some real time to reflect and consider whether I'm up to trying a 50 miler. Turns out I just may give it a try. New training plan is on the way and this one will get me to 37 ish miles. The final decision on the 50 miler will be made after that.

Now for some vacation pics!!

Aulani.... Stunning! A great place to do our relaxing!
The only thing we didn't get to do was eat a Ama Ama because it is still closed.

Hike up Koko Head Trail. We were woefully unprepared for how difficult this would be. Ran out of water right after we started down and Donna nearly didn't make it. You can't escape the sun and it was a very toasty day for a couple of old folks from the PNW.


We'd totally do it again, but we'd be better prepared!

Next up, Mahina Adventure All Day Tour!

We had an amazing day with our tour guide Evan. He was really informed on the history of all the places we went. First was snorkeling off of Electric Beach, then a hike up to some pill boxes from WWII, then lunch at L & L restaurant. Followed by kayaking and cave exploring!

 

[disneygpa]

After a day of relaxing it was off to Makapuʻu Point Lighthouse Trail!! This one was far easier than Koko, would have been a great place to do hill training!!



After the lighthouse it was off to see the Arizona at Pearl Harbor. Holy smokes... This really got me in the feels. It has always been a bucket list place for me and it was even more than I expected.



After another day of relaxing.....



and a Luau at Aulani



It was off to Kualoa Ranch! Here we did the ATV Raptor tour and the ziplines!! So much fun and scenery! About a gazillion movies, tv shows, and commercials have been filmed here!

 

[disneygpa]

Finally, Sunset Beach. A little hazy in the pic. But, you still get the point.


This trip was amazing, really, really, really didn't want to come back to work and the grey PNW.

Back to the grind....

 

[DopeyBadger]

Stunning pictures. Thanks for sharing!

 

[shellott-hill]

Love it. Looks amazing.

I grew up in Hawaii and now I am missing home. I will retire back there someday!

Looks like you had a wonderful vacation.