New Airline refund rules

[jec6613]

I'm surprised nobody has posted this yet, but starting in October a bunch of new automatic refund rules will take effect for airlines. Also of note is they're continuing to work on families being seated together, and some other quality of life benefits. Link below provides some details. Anybody have any thoughts?

https://www.transportation.gov/brie...inal-rule-requiring-automatic-refunds-airline

My major thought is that this is a good step towards bringing airline consumer protections closer to being in line with surface transportation (mostly Amtrak and long-haul bus routes). It's also going to both modestly increase ticket prices, and somewhat decrease scheduled flights as airlines increase the timetable times to better absorb IROPs.

Another longer term impact will be that premium cabins and seating will likely become more standardized in size across domestic fleets (no more tiny first class cabin on A319's) to prevent a re-gauge from causing a large, expensive refund. Something they currently get away with because a re-gauge that puts a first class passenger into coach does not actually entitle the customer to any refund.

 

[gottalovepluto]

They basically got away with the absolute minimum. No airlines will be harmed but consumers will now, maybe, kinda get the reimbursements they already get if they have their head on straight and ask their airline -and the airline isn’t total crap. What was actually being pushed for was EU261 style regs. These rules are a joke in comparison.

And no, there will be no “long term” impact on airplane designs. Airlines will currently reimburse customers for F/J to Y downgrades or loss of legrooom purchases when customers ask already. This just means the tiny percent of customers who don’t bother to ask will now get that refund too.

All in all: the aviation industry popped the champagne when these big new bad boy rules finally came out.

 

[FreeTime]

Couple of thoughts…the change / delay of 3 hours…I could see this being a difficult rule to get money back in some cases. I think it needs more detail. For example, leg one may be delayed for an hour which causes you to miss your connection. They rebook you on a flight two hours after that connection. Is that an eligible 3 hour delay?

Perhaps this is why SWA came out with their intent to change yesterday. They claim they want to flex to meet passengers needs but really maybe they are preparing for the anticipated argument from passengers demanding EBCI back as the passenger believes it entitles them to the seat they WANT not a seat from what is available. Having to guarantee that a passenger gets what they believed they paid for is going to potentially be more costly for them.

I do like if getting downgraded there is required compensation.

 

[FreeTime]

They basically got away with the absolute minimum. No airlines will be harmed but consumers will now, maybe, kinda get the reimbursements they already get if they have their head on straight and ask their airline -and the airline isn’t total crap. What was actually being pushed for was EU261 style regs. These rules are a joke in comparison.

And no, there will be no “long term” impact on airplane designs. Airlines will currently reimburse customers for F/J to Y downgrades or loss of legrooom purchases when customers ask already. This just means the tiny percent of customers who don’t bother to ask will now get that refund too.

All in all: the aviation industry popped the champagne when these big new bad boy rules finally came out.

I do agree that anyone asking in today’s world will get compensated for being downgraded etc. Delta has always bent over backwards if my selected class changed or even my seat in the selected class changed, if I call to ask about it.

 

[jec6613]

Airlines will currently reimburse customers for F/J to Y downgrades or loss of legrooom purchases when customers ask already.

Currently on all of the legacy carriers, a downgrade from F/J to Y only reimburses customers for the difference between their discounted fare and the full fare Y by policy, which is often more expensive than the discounted F/J. Been there, done that, the refund is laughable, $7 in one case, and this as an AA EP - other airlines may help you more or less, but this makes it uniform at least. As for the rest, extra legroom and such, even asking does not always get a reimbursement. For DL, UA, and AA, you must be a frequent flier member to receive it at all, and often it only comes as a credit.

To my knowledge only AA's CK level gets you the full refund benefits now going into force, on any airline.

They rebook you on a flight two hours after that connection. Is that an eligible 3 hour delay?

It's determined by when they get you to your destination - which means on complex itineraries you can have more than 3 hour delay departing, but if they rebook you onto a direct flight that arrives within 3 hours of your original scheduled itinerary, then there's no compensation. There are also some loopholes - for instance they can deliver you to JFK instead of LGA, and because it's still a NYC coded flight it still counts (ditto with Heathrow vs Gatwick, both are LON).

Though I agree it's still not strong enough, at least it's a step in the right direction. Pretty much the strongest change since deregulation, though still short of EU regulations, let alone the much stronger FRA regulations.

 

[Tatebeck]

It's trash once you read into it. It's only a refund if you don't accept the alternative they offer you. So if they cancel your flight and reroute you, or if you are delayed and they get you on a different flight, you get nothing. If you deny their changes and stay stranded and find your own way home, then you get your refund. It's complete garbage

 

[Tatebeck]

Under the rule, passengers are entitled to a refund for:

• Canceled or significantly changed flights: Passengers will be entitled to a refund if their flight is canceled or significantly changed, and they do not accept alternative transportation or travel credits offered. For the first time, the rule defines “significant change.” Significant changes to a flight include departure or arrival times that are more than 3 hours domestically and 6 hours internationally; departures or arrivals from a different airport; increases in the number of connections; instances where passengers are downgraded to a lower class of service; or connections at different airports or flights on different planes that are less accessible or accommodating to a person with a disability.

 

[gottalovepluto]

Perhaps this is why SWA came out with their intent to change yesterday…

WN is in trouble as they aren’t getting the planes they thought they’d get so they can’t expand this year and the math of the current set up is not working. They need to change and they’ve notified Wall St they know that. They’re having their lunch eaten by the other airlines who are making absolute bank off of premium seating options in particular. WN is even considering such drastic changes as adding premium seating to their cabins- which would be far more expensive to reimburse than EBCI. Personally I think they’ll go the cheaper route of purchase your seat ahead of time and roll out actually premium seats later as that’s pretty expensive since they have none and would have to retrofit their fleet.

 

[gottalovepluto]

…and this as an AA EP…

Ah you fly AA, and frequently, I’m sorry. I would be throwing a dang party in your shoes at these regs. I broke up with them a few years ago but I do feel for those for whom that is not an option.

 

[gottalovepluto]

I do agree that anyone asking in today’s world will get compensated for being downgraded etc. Delta has always bent over backwards if my selected class changed or even my seat in the selected class changed, if I call to ask about it.

Yes but as I just realized- DL. I’ve been flying UA & DL the last couple years so this stuff was laughable. Then OP reminded me AA existed

 

[EACarlson]

Currently on all of the legacy carriers, a downgrade from F/J to Y only reimburses customers for the difference between their discounted fare and the full fare Y by policy, which is often more expensive than the discounted F/J. Been there, done that, the refund is laughable, $7 in one case, and this as an AA EP - other airlines may help you more or less, but this makes it uniform at least. As for the rest, extra legroom and such, even asking does not always get a reimbursement. For DL, UA, and AA, you must be a frequent flier member to receive it at all, and often it only comes as a credit.

To my knowledge only AA's CK level gets you the full refund benefits now going into force, on any airline.

It's determined by when they get you to your destination - which means on complex itineraries you can have more than 3 hour delay departing, but if they rebook you onto a direct flight that arrives within 3 hours of your original scheduled itinerary, then there's no compensation. There are also some loopholes - for instance they can deliver you to JFK instead of LGA, and because it's still a NYC coded flight it still counts (ditto with Heathrow vs Gatwick, both are LON).

Though I agree it's still not strong enough, at least it's a step in the right direction. Pretty much the strongest change since deregulation, though still short of EU regulations, let alone the much stronger FRA regulations.

You are completely misunderstanding what this rule actually does. It only covers refunds if you don't actually fly. If you fly, you don't get anything. This rule did pretty much four things.
1. Standardized the definition of a "Significant Delay" to mean three hours for a domestic flight, and six hours for an international. This will actually make the definition of significant delay longer on most of the legacy carriers.
2. Mandates refunds for baggage fees if the bags are delayed for more than 12 hours. Didn't have a problem with this the one time I had a bag delayed by United. This feels like it was aimed at the ULCCs as the majors don't have an issue here.
3. Refunds of ancillary fees like Wi-Fi and seat selection if you can't use them. Again, never had an issue with this, but I could see it happening with SW if EBCI becomes moot due to issues under the airlines control, or a reroute.
4. Mandates airlines give transferable credits valid for at least five years to those that can't travel due to a public health emergency or communicable disease. Not a fan that the government is dictating the length of validity and that it be transferable. How often this comes into play will remain to be seen.

 

[jec6613]

Ah you fly AA, and frequently, I’m sorry. I would be throwing a dang party in your shoes at these regs. I broke up with them a few years ago but I do feel for those for whom that is not an option.

And what's so sad is they were the best before the US merger. I spent a lot of time in the Mad Dogs on the LGA-ORD run back when AA was the only game with good frequency and on time service. While they're not technically my only option for the routes I frequently fly today, they're at least better than my alternative on the domestic routes: Spirit.

And this is why I have a decent amount of Amtrak points as well.

 

[reddog21]

you can remove the covers off any policy and you find fault. It's a balancing act between trying to do something for consumers and "trying" to make sure those businesses don't somehow(which they always find a way) stick it to consumers.

Maybe its a very tiny win but it's better than nothing.

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

Hm. Last month our flight home was delayed 6 hours and UA proactively gave each of us $150 in credit and 2500 miles without us complaining. Wonder if they are already implementing this?

 

[jec6613]

Hm. Last month our flight home was delayed 6 hours and UA proactively gave each of us $150 in credit and 2500 miles without us complaining. Wonder if they are already implementing this?

Probably not, especially as a credit isn't a refund to original payment form.

If a flight has a MX issue, or other operational issue within the airline's control, they usually proactively give you something so you don't complain higher up the chain where you can get even more compensation. And, usually, it works.

 

[sam_gordon]

And if they give you a refund, they don't have to fly you, right? So sure, get the refund, now find another way to travel.
And a weather delay means the airline isn't responsible, right?

 

[Anthony1971]

And on the flip side an Airline can cancel a flight because not enough people booked refund all a few days before. Same with a delay. I do not see how this is an improvement. Your flight is delayed by 3 hours here is a refund. How do I get home? We have a ticket for a flight leaving in 3 and 1/2 hours for 5 times what you paid. Would you like the ticket? BUt my ticket was only X well you gave that up for a refund should you have kept it you would have been on this flight of the same price.
The whole thing lakes any type of common sense.

 

[EACarlson]

And if they give you a refund, they don't have to fly you, right? So sure, get the refund, now find another way to travel.
And a weather delay means the airline isn't responsible, right?

Absolutely correct on the first point. On the the second, they would still have to give you a refund even if the delay is due to weather. This is much more about schedule changes than delays.

And on the flip side an Airline can cancel a flight because not enough people booked refund all a few days before. Same with a delay. I do not see how this is an improvement. Your flight is delayed by 3 hours here is a refund. How do I get home? We have a ticket for a flight leaving in 3 and 1/2 hours for 5 times what you paid. Would you like the ticket? BUt my ticket was only X well you gave that up for a refund should you have kept it you would have been on this flight of the same price.
The whole thing lakes any type of common sense.

The improvement is on the LCCs, ULCCs and foreign carriers. At the start of the pandemic there were quite a few that refused to offer refunds to original form of payment or stated that up to a 24 hour change was not a "significant schedule change" so they only had to give credits. The airlines still have the responsibility to get you to your destination on their next available flight with space, the refund is not going to be automatic, the timer starts when you refuse the rebooking and the credits. There will be almost no change in how things are done at the major airlines.

Hm. Last month our flight home was delayed 6 hours and UA proactively gave each of us $150 in credit and 2500 miles without us complaining. Wonder if they are already implementing this?

If you flew on the flight than that was all about customer service and retention and had nothing to do with this rule. Under this new rule and United's interpretation of the current rule, you would have been eligible to cancel that flight for a refund to original form of payment.