Rental Rates/Concerns

[tripletvan]

There is a company( not private person) online that says it owns points at several DVC on site resorts and they have already booked rooms (standard view included) for numerous high season weeks that can be rented.
Free enterprise?

I hate the waiting list!

 

[erikthewise]

Well, it seems we have a whole continuum of sins, from venial to mortal:

(1) making a reservation which includes an additional day or two that you probably won't use, to provide flexibility in travel dates. When you're sure you won't use them, you cancel the extra days.
Comment: Hey, I've done this myself! Can it really be so awful? But it *does* temporarily reduce the inventory available to other members. Wasn't this Rich's main point? Maybe it's OK because the intended use, however unlikely, IS for a member. And it is probably the main reason why wait lists work so well.

(2) making a complete reservation (for yourself) which you possibly/probably won't use, just to have it available in case it works out.
Comment: This would appear to still be within the bounds of legitimate use, but is a more serious tie-up of inventory.

(3) making duplicate reservations (for yourself) on the same dates to provide flexibility in room or resort selection.
Comment: Legal but IMNSHO crossing over the boundary into rude and inconsiderate. Uncertainty about travel dates (as in 1 and 2) often involves things you can't control. But room size or resort selection is just a matter of making up your damn mind, and doesn't justify tying up inventory that other members would like to use.

(4) making duplicate reservations for a renter on the same dates to provide flexibility in room or resort selection.
Comment: As in (3), only double strength. This is what was raised in the OP. What is the solution? Not sure that I can think of a cure that isn't worse than the disease; you can't legislate against rudeness. Richyams suggestion (rent only for dues) seems extreme, and would likely create a really nasty black market for rented points, as they would be fewer in number but *really* valuable to those nonmembers able to acquire them.

(5) buying several hundred points for the sole purpose of renting them.
Comment: Should be hung from a meathook. This is what we/DVC should try to legislate against rather than lesser infractions. I recall last spring seeing a number of posts offering e.g. "300 BCV points for rent", obviously points they never intended to use for themselves.

How about restricting renting points only in that you can only rent them *to other members*? Very likely another unworkable idea, but I'll toss it out anyway.

 

[CaptainMidnight]

Sorry, but I think there is a difference between adding some extra reservation dates because your unsure of your travel plans, or to accomodate some potential friends and family members, and deliberately tying up extra dates because your renting out points for profit. Those are two different scenarios for me.

I do think that those who rent out DVC regularly as a private business as opposed to the original intent of family vacation ownership are detrimental to DVC members using DVC for it's intended use, family vacation ownership. I also do not agree that the private business use by a group or individual through regular rental of DVC points is clearly provided as being allowed in the contract. DVC could clamp down on this issue private business renting of points if they chose to and would still be within the bounds of the contract we signed.

 

[CaptainMidnight]

(5) buying several hundred points for the sole purpose of renting them. Comment: Should be hung from a meathook. This is what we/DVC should try to legislate against rather than lesser infractions.

Good point, although I wouldn't have chose the 'meathook' phrase.

I recall last spring seeing a number of posts offering e.g. "300 BCV points for rent", obviously points they never intended to use for themselves.

Unknown, especially given the layoffs, downsizing, etc. The purchaser may have thought that if they could just cash in one vacation, they could keep thier ownership during a financial struggle.

I do not think that private business regular DVC point rental by an individual is in the best interest of DVC members overal.

 

[r8ingbull]

I would love a members ONLY resort.

Why? How would this possibly matter to anyone? Who cares who else is staying there. Do you know all 60,000 members and their families?

As to the original post. I bought some ceramic tile at Lowes the other day. I bought a few more pieces then I needed and returned the leftovers. Should this be made illegal too?

 

[Jen D]

Sorry, but I think there is a difference between adding some extra reservation dates because your unsure of your travel plans, or to accomodate some potential friends and family members, and deliberately tying up extra dates because your renting out points for profit. Those are two different scenarios for me.

They may be two scenarios to you in some sort of universe where you assign value to who is using the reservation, but in terms of points and inventory, it is exactly the same thing. A room is held by points, and later cancelled. Points are being used to take the rooms out of inventory. When the cancellation is made, the room goes back into inventory and the room is available. Lucky wait-listers. I'm sure some people don't have enough points to hold multiple ressies but this person does.

It is done all the time, by members, for many different reasons.

 

[TIdoublegaER]

There is a company( not private person) online that says it owns points at several DVC on site resorts and they have already booked rooms (standard view included) for numerous high season weeks that can be rented.

To me this is seems to be the biggest problem. To reserve blocks of rooms over peak travel times solely to rent out is wrong. I see no problem with offering your points for rent, dates subject to availability.

I also have no problem with members reserving an extra unit that they think they will need or reserving extra nights due to uncertainty about travel dates. These will be released back into inventory or the member loses their points if unused.

 

[joepoe]

whatever they want with their points as far as booking rooms, as long as they stay within the rules. I don't get this whole argument. There is enough room for everyone at DVC. Booking them on behalf of someone else, or yourself, it makes no difference!

 

[joepoe]

Originally posted by TIdoublegaER
To me this is seems to be the biggest problem. To reserve blocks of rooms over peak travel times solely to rent out is wrong. I see no problem with offering your points for rent, dates subject to availability.

I also have no problem with members reserving an extra unit that they think they will need or reserving extra nights due to uncertainty about travel dates. These will be released back into inventory or the member loses their points if unused.

Also, the DVC owner who wants to rent would have to book at 11 months at peak times, just like the rest of us. We are on a level playing field with our points.

 

[Disneyaholic]

Originally posted by erikthewise
you can't legislate against rudeness.

This pretty much sums up the issue, IMHO. It's like so many other of the highly-debated issues that appear from time to time on this board. Sometimes people bend the rules for their own benefit. It happens with actual rules and it happens with rules of courtesy and etiquette. I doubt that's going to change.

 

[msdis]

At least with the wait list this helps to rectify this problem such that when the ressie is let go someone else will get it

 

[DisneyKidds]

As has been pointed out, members make reservations they may never use all the time. This does tie up inventory. Do you view this as a problem?

So long as members work within the confines of the system, they should be free to do as they please. Members spend a lot of $$$ on points and I can't fault anyone for making legal reservations within the system to accomodate their needs. That is not rudeness. That is the way the system is designed.

If one of those needs should be to generate some extra cash for points they will not be able to use, they should be able to make whatever reservations their points will allow, even if those reservations are for someone else's use.

I had a quick question about an earlier comment on the price per point for rentals. Earlier someone said points shoud not be rented for 'profit', but should only be rented for the cost of dues. How on earth could someone consider anything in excess of dues as being profit. I don't know about you all, but we dropped tens of thousands of $$$, exclusive of any dues, on the points we own.

 

[ripleysmom]

Mark this date on the calendar.....

I agree with Rich.....

 

[GAIL HAYDEN]

Why? How would this possibly matter to anyone? Who cares who else is staying there. Do you know all 60,000 members and their families?

Of course I don't know all 70,000 members. There are quite a few reasons, top on my list: shrinkage from non members, which we pay for as members and because of this shrinkage we now have lost some of the nice things, like placemats, coasters, napkins, etc. We now have to call for hand mixers, something that was in the unit before. I am sure that members contribute to the shrinkage, but, not to the degree someone without a vested interest does.

 

[CarolMN]

Like it or not, agree or not, this whole thread/discussion is essentially moot. (It's fun for me to read everyone's opinions, though).

The documents that all members sign at purchase specifically state that members "may sell, rent, transfer or will their ownership interest". My dictionary says that when may is used with other verbs (like rent or sell), it means that it is allowed.

The only caveats to the above are:

1). DVD's ROFR and

2). the fact that those who attempt to resell or rent their interest would compete with DVD for buyers and renters at at substantial competitive disadvantage.

There is no limit to renting other than availability and the other booking rules that apply to all members.

Disney cannot unilaterally change the contract specifications -even if they wanted to!


My opinion (I consider the above fact, LOL):

I will never understand why some think that renting hurts other members. I have to book day by day to get the very popular time that we prefer to go and have always been able to book my first choice at my home resort. Those who rent points must do the same if they want to rent out the "popular" time. To me, those who rent are just other members who may want to stay at the same time I do.

Renters may "hurt" those who do not call/plan 11 months ahead, but renters do not and can not prevent a member from using the 11 month window. I have trouble understanding why anyone would assume that if there were no renters that they would get what they want when they don't use the 11 month window. How can they know that other members who want to stay at the same time they do won't use the 11 month window and get the time that they wanted (but didn't call for at the 11 month window)? DVC reservations are subject to availability on a first come, first served basis (within the booking windows). As long as a member follows the booking rules, it makes no difference to me what he/she chooses to do with her points.

 

[GrammieMame]

quote:
"I recall last spring seeing a number of posts offering e.g. "300 BCV points for rent", obviously points they never intended to use for themselves."

I wouldn't be too quick to judge. I can think of several good reasons why someone would have purchased points for their own use and become unable to use them: Diagnosis of a serious illness in a family member that would require extended treatment; a business crisis that makes the payment of dues a real crisis; family disagreements so that a vacation together just doesn't seem like a great idea right now; a family member being called up to military duty. In any of those cases, a family vacation might not be at the top of someone's priority list, and renting the points seems perfectly legitimate.

 

[Jen D]

. I am sure that members contribute to the shrinkage, but, not to the degree someone without a vested interest does.

This widely held belief that someone who had the wherewithal to slap down their 10% downpayment is innately more likely to be good and honest is pretty ridiculous. By the same token, I'm always hearing certain dvc'ers carping about what being a member entitles them to and how they wished Disney would give them more stuff. Maybe some members in the past thought being a member "entitled" them to bring home coasters and placemats. Where am I pulling this completely unfair conjecture? Out of my rear-end? Yes! Much where we're getting the oft-repeated belief that renters and cash customers are more likely to be responsible for theft and damage.

Gail, I'm sorry to jump on you, but I see that assertion a lot without anything, anything, anything to back it up other than wishful thinking.

 

[SheriB]

It's not like the person renting the points is rubbing their hands together saying, "He,He, let's see how much inventory I can hold up so that other members can't get their ressies."

As long as they are within the guidelines, it's really no one else's business. Some may feel it is, or that it affects other member's ability to make ressies, but that's the risk we all take when we make a ressie. It's not always guaranteed that we'll get the resort/time that we want.
There are worse things to get our panties in a bunch over. At least most of us can take vacations. Our armed forces aren't exactly on a picnic. But I'll bet any of them who are members wouldn't care when they got to go or what resort they got to stay at, as long as they could go and be with their families/friends.

Sheri

 

[KLR-wlv]

WOW - using the word "immoral" to describe the renting of vacation property!

I can think of a lot of "immoral" things going on in the world right now - renting timeshares doesn't make the list however.

I would think a big believer in free-market economics would have no problem with the perfectly legal renting of property...

 

[Carlnne]

Way to go Jen- How did the "horrible" renters and cash customers end up getting blamed in this thread. I just became a DVC member after 10 faithful years as a decent "cash customer." I will never regret my decision to buy in but I hope I never become a DVC snob or trash people like I have seen here. I love the Disboards for tips and information but I cant believe some things I read in here. (And no I dont plan to rent out my new points but I purchased with the confidence that if I ever needed to I could). Now can we hear more about rooms and pools- enough is enough!