State of Fast Pass Return (or replacement)

[mi*vida*loca]

I do not fully agree. There were definitely 'better' choices to make. Knowing which rides sell out quickly, to make three in the morning to have extra options in the afternoon. It might not have been a loophole, but it was definitely a trick and people with knowledge of the parks and rides and were more 'in the know' definitely had some advantages over people who are on a first trip . FP+ had a learning curve.

I don’t consider that a trick. More like a strategy. Like rope drop is a strategy. But it depends on the person. I guess I’m in the “know” and I rarely do my FP+ in the morning. It was usually evening. We would do midday if we did AK in the morning. My strategy was quality over quantity.

Even just reading the basic Disney site told you that you got 3 FP and could add additional ones.

 

[disneyfantotheend]

I am definitely done after next year and you can tell by my user name that I never felt I would be. I know they won't miss me and they will still have tons of guests every day, and I am okay with that. We promised our Granddaughter a trip or we would not be going back at all. Time to explore new places.

 

[Roxyfire]

not so much a complaint as an observation from personal experience. With Disney seemingly targeting those first-time guests who will spend more for a once-in-a-lifetime trip, it makes sense to me that fastpass as it was didn't suit the bill. I think people are focusing primarily on the narrative that Disney is doing this to be "greedy" and discounting people who are posting that the system wasn't all that great to begin with. I have no doubt that money plays a huge part (even to the point of being the main driver) in this decision, but I also think Disney potentially sees a way to actually improve guest experience for a target group.
Either way, I guess we will all find out soon enough.

Yeah I think people assume they only are after one time visitors but that really doesn't make much sense in reality. Do people probably overspend on their first trip? Probably, and they know that. But ultimately, they want to appeal to as many markets as possible while making as much profit as possible. Many of the folks complaining on these boards also turn right around and keep vacationing at Disney Parks. So honestly I really don't believe a lot of the things I read here.

 

[tentaguasu]

I can understand why some of you think the old FP system was way to complex for the average visitor and why others disagree.

But it's not that Disney is simply saying "hey, let's make this easier for the average consumer!" If that was the move, it wouldn't be a big deal.

Simplification is simply a secondary effect of the main move which is to monetize fastpass. That's the issue. Surely Disney would make it 8 times more complex than it is if the numbers suggested they'd make more money that way.

So let's set that aside.

This is about making money. And before we hate on Chapek for doing this (and trust me I HATE THIS), we're really all to blame, not him. Two points.

First, I don't think Disney should only pursue $$$$. They *should* pursue cash - it's a private business. But I think it's OK for us to say as between "6 Bentleys" or "5 Bentleys plus preserving the Disney Magic" the second is the better choice.

Sadly, as far as I understand it, "maximize profit and the legacy be damned" is a natural result of the way our system is set up. Look, I'm a free market capitalist. It's the best system, IMO. But like all systems, it has flaws. One of the flaws is exactly what we see here. We may hate Chapek, but what is he supposed to do? If he can bring in more $$$ the shareholders keep him. If not, he's out. If he says, "I'm leaving money on the table to preserve magic," he'll be out in a hot minute.

And who are these evil shareholders making these demands? Largely you and me. When I go talk to my financial planner, I get whiny and angry if my stock portfolio is down and happy when it's up. (FWIW, this is a hypothetical portfolio ) So my hypothetical financial planner moves my money to where I get a better return, because that's what I demand, and it's what you demand, too. So we're effectively, all of us, telling Chapek to maximize profits. When you look for a return on your 401k, are you really asking about whether ACME, Inc. in Bubaville, Indiana is upholding its founders dedication to preserving beaver habitats? Nope. You're asking "why is my stock portfolio down this month?" And if the answer is "ACME stock is down" you say "sell the ACME" and ACME's CEO gets the message loud and clear - forget the beavers, maximize the profits.

So while we're all correct in saying that Bob Chapek can make a ton while also preserving what we most value about Disney, ultimately Chapek is doing what the system demands, and it's a system we all participate in and create.

Which brings me to my second point - short term thinking. Our system isn't set up to reward long-term thinking. I think monetizing Fastpass stinks. I think it sends the wrong message, creates even more marked tiers of guests, and really ruins some of the egalitarian magic that we can at least pretend to have inside the parks. Over the long term, I think that degrades the experience and will make Disney less profitable than it could have been. Long-term thinking is a really hard thing for a CEO to do when he or she will be judged on profits earned in the next quarter or year. Can Iger or Chapek plant trees that will bear fruit in 20 years? Not if they want a job. They can probably push for mid-term thinking - a few years down the road. But really making subtle, subjective choices to "preserve the magic" for decades-long improvement in profits simply makes no sense. Instead, the incentive (as explained above) is to chop down trees, sell the wood, and make a good profit this quarter.

As far as I can see, that's kind of the nature of publicly traded companies. Private companies can think long-term. Make investments for the grandkids. Disneyland was created a few years *before* Disney went public. Could that vision have been created otherwise? I have my doubts.

From a fan perspective, I hate monetized fastpass. Hate it.

But unless we go back to a pre-publicly traded Disney that can really be a family or one-man vision, this is the way it's going to be, for better or worse.

This all stinks, of course. Private parties and deluxe resorts and expensive character meals are all things I can live with because the core Disney product is still open to everyone who is able to get into the park (which to be clear, is nowhere near everyone). But I felt slimey paying for express pass at Universal and I'd feel slimey (and impoverished) paying for it at Disney.

 

[Loro]

But that's the thing. Disney has you. And as disappointed as you are with the possibility of them instituting paid FP+, you will still likely go back. I see a ton of long time goers saying "This is it, I'm done this time" and for some that might be true, but I'm guessing the vast majority of super Disney fans will still go. They indeed value you but I'm sure their research is also telling them that while a move like this would upset you, you're still likely going back.

But on the flip side we have someone like @CSLucas who had a less than pleasant experience trying to do what he wanted to do on his first trip and won't go back. And Disney is probably noticing this with many first time visitors through surveys, feedback etc.

Losing 10% of long time visitors is probably more favourable to them than losing 50% or more future new repeat visitors because they had a bad first experience.

I disagree. These are unprecedented times when it comes to price increases with lessening experiences. There are a lot of people I know who are right at that breaking point as a direct result, and it isn't just us diehards. I, personally, am not quite there yet. I prefer a wait and see attitude, but I'm currently planning fewer trips than normal unless a decent AP product comes back.

Disney Parks rely on nostalgia to keep people coming back year after year and generation after generation. I know the main reason I go every year is because I went multiple times with my family as a kid. Cutting out multiple multi-generational families who have annual trips' desires out of the equation to focus on first-timers might be good short-term, but eventually people will stop coming as often. They're not WOWing first-timers anymore like they used to. It's also really bad business, as it is a lot cheaper to keep customers than to go out and get new ones. Without the core fans the parks would suffer. We may not always directly spend as much in the parks every time, but nobody spends more on TWDC as a whole than we do. They'll eventually learn... maybe.

 

[TommyJK]

So in your book, any system that doesn’t automatically pick and reserve a return time for a fixed number of attractions per guest is basically flawed? Just asking because that seems to be what you’re implying. Guest A knows to book 60 days in advance and gets all the headliners at MK for his 3 FP+. Guest B doesn’t know he can do that and waits until he arrives at the park and ends up with the teacups, Monsters Laugh Floor and Phiharmagic. Therefore the system is flawed and needs to be tossed?

It's a system that will say there is no room for your party of 4 for a given ride, but it can often allow you to book for a party of 1 and then allow you to add the 3 other guests one at a time and somehow that works. That's a flaw that those in the know expoilt. It's a system that will say there is no room for your party of 4, but becasue they overlap their FP+ windows you can book 2 in one window and 2 in the other window (or again in other combinations of 1, then add single members at a time to one or the other) and your group of 4 essentially has the same FP+. That's another flaw that those in the know exploit. Or knowing that the likelihood of scoring the hardest to get eTicket is better if you pick that with 2 duds becasue it's a less complex algorithm for the system than trying to slot 3 eTickets at once (in the case of MK). That's a flaw that those in the know exploit.

And the folks on this board who know can you can do things like that and say it's great and while they're on FoP with their FP+, the newcomer family who was booking at the same time are sitting on Na'vi River Journey from their FP+ and lamenting they had to wait 2 hours for FoP because they were told there were no FP+'s available when in reality there were, they just didn't know the different unadvertised permutations and combinations to try.

 

[cakebaker]

It's a system that will say there is no room for your party of 4 for a given ride, but it can often allow you to book for a party of 1 and then allow you to add the 3 other guests one at a time and somehow that works.

I have never had that work, and I've tried.

It's a system that will say there is no room for your party of 4, but becasue they overlap their FP+ windows you can book 2 in one window and 2 in the other window (

That's not a flaw, that is common sense and not knowing you can arrive a few minutes early or a few minutes late is just a lack on the guests part for not making themselves familiar with the system and how it operates. I can book 2 of us at 3-4 and 2 of us at 4-5 and we both get there at 4- that is not insider info. lol

Or knowing that the likelihood of scoring the hardest to get eTicket is better if you pick that with 2 duds becasue it's a less complex algorithm for the system than trying to slot 3 eTickets at once.

In all my years using FP+, if this was a thing, I never knew it, yet we have always, always, gotten every FP we wanted for our first 3 for every day of our trip.

What you're describing are things you can either learn up front or learn with experience, but nothing that will stop you from getting FP's. It's no secret that experienced guests have an easier time. That is true of almost any vacation destination there is- Best places to eat, quietest beach area, etc. That doesn't make the system flawed and it's an issue that will exist regardless of what system is put into place.

Pretty much done with this discussion. FP+ is going away whether it's flawed or it's not. I guess paying $10 a ride, constantly on the app trying to book and pay for the next ride will be an improvement and everyone will understand exactly how to use the system without every reading a single thing about it.

 

[Br'er Rabbit is the Best]

I can understand why some of you think the old FP system was way to complex for the average visitor and why others disagree.

But it's not that Disney is simply saying "hey, let's make this easier for the average consumer!" If that was the move, it wouldn't be a big deal.

Simplification is simply a secondary effect of the main move which is to monetize fastpass. That's the issue. Surely Disney would make it 8 times more complex than it is if the numbers suggested they'd make more money that way.

So let's set that aside.

This is about making money. And before we hate on Chapek for doing this (and trust me I HATE THIS), we're really all to blame, not him. Two points.

First, I don't think Disney should only pursue $$$$. They *should* pursue cash - it's a private business. But I think it's OK for us to say as between "6 Bentleys" or "5 Bentleys plus preserving the Disney Magic" the second is the better choice.

Sadly, as far as I understand it, "maximize profit and the legacy be damned" is a natural result of the way our system is set up. Look, I'm a free market capitalist. It's the best system, IMO. But like all systems, it has flaws. One of the flaws is exactly what we see here. We may hate Chapek, but what is he supposed to do? If he can bring in more $$$ the shareholders keep him. If not, he's out. If he says, "I'm leaving money on the table to preserve magic," he'll be out in a hot minute.

And who are these evil shareholders making these demands? Largely you and me. When I go talk to my financial planner, I get whiny and angry if my stock portfolio is down and happy when it's up. (FWIW, this is a hypothetical portfolio ) So my hypothetical financial planner moves my money to where I get a better return, because that's what I demand, and it's what you demand, too. So we're effectively, all of us, telling Chapek to maximize profits. When you look for a return on your 401k, are you really asking about whether ACME, Inc. in Bubaville, Indiana is upholding its founders dedication to preserving beaver habitats? Nope. You're asking "why is my stock portfolio down this month?" And if the answer is "ACME stock is down" you say "sell the ACME" and ACME's CEO gets the message loud and clear - forget the beavers, maximize the profits.

So while we're all correct in saying that Bob Chapek can make a ton while also preserving what we most value about Disney, ultimately Chapek is doing what the system demands, and it's a system we all participate in and create.

Which brings me to my second point - short term thinking. Our system isn't set up to reward long-term thinking. I think monetizing Fastpass stinks. I think it sends the wrong message, creates even more marked tiers of guests, and really ruins some of the egalitarian magic that we can at least pretend to have inside the parks. Over the long term, I think that degrades the experience and will make Disney less profitable than it could have been. Long-term thinking is a really hard thing for a CEO to do when he or she will be judged on profits earned in the next quarter or year. Can Iger or Chapek plant trees that will bear fruit in 20 years? Not if they want a job. They can probably push for mid-term thinking - a few years down the road. But really making subtle, subjective choices to "preserve the magic" for decades-long improvement in profits simply makes no sense. Instead, the incentive (as explained above) is to chop down trees, sell the wood, and make a good profit this quarter.

As far as I can see, that's kind of the nature of publicly traded companies. Private companies can think long-term. Make investments for the grandkids. Disneyland was created a few years *before* Disney went public. Could that vision have been created otherwise? I have my doubts.

From a fan perspective, I hate monetized fastpass. Hate it.

But unless we go back to a pre-publicly traded Disney that can really be a family or one-man vision, this is the way it's going to be, for better or worse.

This all stinks, of course. Private parties and deluxe resorts and expensive character meals are all things I can live with because the core Disney product is still open to everyone who is able to get into the park (which to be clear, is nowhere near everyone). But I felt slimey paying for express pass at Universal and I'd feel slimey (and impoverished) paying for it at Disney.

I feel personally attacked because you are 100% right. I don’t have a lot of Disney shares but I have a few. The stock is slightly down over the last 6 months while the S&P 500 is up about 15%. I’d be lying if I said the thought of selling my Disney shares for an S&P 500 index fund hadn’t crossed my mind. Bob is going to do what will best drive up the stock in the short term because that’s how he is compensated (via options) and that’s how institutional investors want him to run the company. We can kick and scream as much as we want, but as long as we keep buying tickets and reserving hotel rooms, it will just keep getting worse.

 

[Dis Dragon]

The biggest pro thing about the old FP+ system is that big rides had release windows. It's been a while, I don't remember what they were anymore, but it was like if you were trying to get Test Track, it had a drop at 1pm. So you could be ready at 1pm to refresh FP+, most of the time this worked. Other headliners had these drops as well, they had different times throughout the day.

 

[TommyJK]

I have never had that work, and I've tried.

Becasue it's never worked for you, doesn't mean it doesn't work. I've seen numerous reports of this working and many "tips and tricks" sites that promote trying it.

That's not a flaw, that is common sense and not knowing you can arrive a few minutes early or a few minutes late is just a lack on the guests part for not making themselves familiar with the system and how it operates. I can book 2 of us at 3-4 and 2 of us at 4-5 and we both get there at 4- that is not insider info. lol

While common sense to you, I don't see it as a "common sense" tactic that a newcomer would even think to try when they are trying to book their family together. More importantly the booking system doesn't suggest you to try it when if can't get an FP+ you're trying to get.

In all my years using FP+, if this was a thing, I never knew it, yet we have always, always, gotten every FP we wanted for our first 3 for every day of our trip.

What you're describing are things you can either learn up front or learn with experience, but nothing that will stop you from getting FP's. It's no secret that experienced guests have an easier time. That is true of almost any vacation destination there is- Best places to eat, quietest beach area, etc. That doesn't make the system flawed and it's an issue that will exist regardless of what system is put into place.

Pretty much done with this discussion. FP+ is going away whether it's flawed or it's not. I guess paying $10 a ride, constantly on the app trying to book and pay for the next ride will be an improvement and everyone will understand exactly how to use the system without every reading a single thing about it.

And therein lies the problem and I think Disney knows it too. While things like best place to eat, which bathrooms are least busiest/typically cleanest are indeed things to pick up with experience as well, FP+ is something I feel shouldn't be tilted to favour those with experience as line waits are likely the biggest factor that makes or breaks a first timers experience. I feel that Disney is trying something to help with this (good) while also taking advantage to make more money from it at the same time (mixed feelings on this).

 

[Remy is Up]

Mixed results on the test. As a stand alone program just integrated on the platform with park reservations, it slowed systems a bit but operated normally. As soon as other cross function programs were added, it started to glitch. It didn't crash the system, for the first time, but it didn't work as well as they hoped either. And because other program rollouts rely on it to talk to those programs, there is still work to be done. Suffice it to say there are some very disappointed people and others saying they told those people this would take longer than they were wanting. Assessment is this could take another 90 days or more to sort out completely so the discussion has become. Now what? Roll out fp+ in the interim? If this integration could be done in 30 or even 60 days, I think they would wait. But 90 or more may force them to revise plans for a stop gap

 

[orangecuse]

Mixed results on the test. As a stand alone program just integrated on the platform with park reservations, it slowed systems a bit but operated normally. As soon as other cross function programs were added, it started to glitch. It didn't crash the system, for the first time, but it didn't work as well as they hoped either. And because other program rollouts rely on it to talk to those programs, there is still work to be done. Suffice it to say there are some very disappointed people and others saying they told those people this would take longer than they were wanting. Assessment is this could take another 90 days or more to sort out completely so the discussion has become. Now what? Roll out fp+ in the interim? If this integration could be done in 30 or even 60 days, I think they would wait. But 90 or more may force them to revise plans for a stop gap

90 days is past Oct 1st and I would be super surprised if they left standby only for the 50th ya know? Any chance they just bump it to 2022 if they cant make an Oct 1st deadline, or would you guess its a given for 2021?
I am hoping we hear some news this week although I know its unlikely!

 

[Remy is Up]

90 days is past Oct 1st and I would be super surprised if they left standby only for the 50th ya know? Any chance they just bump it to 2022 if they cant make an Oct 1st deadline, or would you guess its a given for 2021?
I am hoping we hear some news this week although I know its unlikely!

I'm thinking fp+ is coming back in the interim which would push the new fp system to 2022 as well as corresponding programs.

 

[sessava]

Mixed results on the test. As a stand alone program just integrated on the platform with park reservations, it slowed systems a bit but operated normally. As soon as other cross function programs were added, it started to glitch. It didn't crash the system, for the first time, but it didn't work as well as they hoped either. And because other program rollouts rely on it to talk to those programs, there is still work to be done. Suffice it to say there are some very disappointed people and others saying they told those people this would take longer than they were wanting. Assessment is this could take another 90 days or more to sort out completely so the discussion has become. Now what? Roll out fp+ in the interim? If this integration could be done in 30 or even 60 days, I think they would wait. But 90 or more may force them to revise plans for a stop gap

Lurker here who made an account just to comment on this, if what you are saying is true, does that mean that those of us who have been waiting for annual passes to go on sale have not been able to purchase them just due to IT problems with the new FP? That seems to be what you are getting at with your "other program rollouts", no?

 

[New Mouse]

It's a system that will say there is no room for your party of 4 for a given ride, but it can often allow you to book for a party of 1 and then allow you to add the 3 other guests one at a time and somehow that works. That's a flaw that those in the know expoilt. It's a system that will say there is no room for your party of 4, but becasue they overlap their FP+ windows you can book 2 in one window and 2 in the other window (or again in other combinations of 1, then add single members at a time to one or the other) and your group of 4 essentially has the same FP+. That's another flaw that those in the know exploit. Or knowing that the likelihood of scoring the hardest to get eTicket is better if you pick that with 2 duds becasue it's a less complex algorithm for the system than trying to slot 3 eTickets at once (in the case of MK). That's a flaw that those in the know exploit.

And the folks on this board who know can you can do things like that and say it's great and while they're on FoP with their FP+, the newcomer family who was booking at the same time are sitting on Na'vi River Journey from their FP+ and lamenting they had to wait 2 hours for FoP because they were told there were no FP+'s available when in reality there were, they just didn't know the different unadvertised permutations and combinations to try.

Agreed. Disney needs to majorly up their IT game. They are an idea company that does awful at executing when it comes to tech.

 

[SarahWI]

Disney needs to majorly up their IT game. They are an idea company that does awful at executing when it comes to tech.

Agreed. All the boo bash chaos, annual F&W chaos, glitchy DVC booking points to suboptimal IT resources.

I love the irony that suboptimal IT department is the barrier to rolling out paid FP or whatever the bleep they are going to call it.

 

[New Mouse]

And therein lies the problem and I think Disney knows it too. While things like best place to eat, which bathrooms are least busiest/typically cleanest are indeed things to pick up with experience as well, FP+ is something I feel shouldn't be tilted to favour those with experience as line waits are likely the biggest factor that makes or breaks a first timers experience. I feel that Disney is trying something to help with this (good) while also taking advantage to make more money from it at the same time (mixed feelings on this).

When Disney designed FP+ it was based on the premise that the beginners wouldnt know any better. They knew someone would have to be excited to get a FP to mickeys philharmagic as thats the only way the system could work. Not enough experiences to go around.

I personally would like to see what a free fp system would look like without day guests.

 

[Nabas]

I'm thinking fp+ is coming back in the interim which would push the new fp system to 2022 as well as corresponding programs.

It's an interesting idea but I don't think so. It's my understanding that Disney already has reprogrammed much of their system for Park Pass and Premier Access.

In addition, bringing back FP+ temporarily would cause confusion among Guests. That band aid has been ripped off. No reason to reattach it.

 

[Br'er Rabbit is the Best]

It's an interesting idea but I don't think so. It's my understanding that Disney already has reprogrammed much of their system for Park Pass and Premier Access.

In addition, bringing back FP+ temporarily would cause confusion among Guests. That band aid has been ripped off. No reason to reattach it.

I’m also hesitant to see Disney bringing back something for free and taking it away later. That would be a major backlash I would think compared to bringing it back for a price. And there is no need to rush anything. Resorts are booked solid for the 50th. They’ll get their money either way.

 

[Nabas]

Agreed. Disney needs to majorly up their IT game. They are an idea company that does awful at executing when it comes to tech.

Unless things have changed recently, Disney outsourced their IT to a company that has one of the worst reputations in the business. (They also tend to be the low-cost bidder on projects.)