This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[ronandannette]

Your right, no one has ever killed children intentionally and then come up with some BS story.

What amount of money would it take for you to plot an elaborate scheme with your extended family to board a cruise ship (where I guess you'd meticulously researched the environment for just the right structural opportunity) and within the first hour, carry out the heinous murder of your toddler? And if you had two kids, like they did, how do you decide which one you're sacrificing? Since you've obviously got a theory - let's hear it.

 

[Lilsia]

What amount of money would it take for you to plot an elaborate scheme with your extended family to board a cruise ship (where I guess you'd meticulously researched the environment for just the right structural opportunity) and within the first hour, carry out the heinous murder of your toddler? And if you had two kids, like they did, how do you decide which one you're sacrificing? Since you've obviously got a theory - let's hear it.

No theory, I just don't discount it. People do horrible things and don't necessarily need a reason. Ever hear of munchausen by proxy syndrome. There are a lot of sick people out there. That man had to have intentionally done it or have been mentally disabled to do something that stupid.

 

[Deb]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/royal-ca...-evidence-by-family-of-toddler-who-fell-death
they seem to be going with "the window never should have been open and if we could show a RC employee opened it, we would have our case. But RC knew this and didn't retain that video in an effort to hide their guilt"

 

[ronandannette]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/royal-ca...-evidence-by-family-of-toddler-who-fell-death
they seem to be going with "the window never should have been open and if we could show a RC employee opened it, we would have our case. But RC knew this and didn't retain that video in an effort to hide their guilt"

Of course an employee opened it - these windows are always open as anyone (over a million passengers since this class of ship debuted 15 years ago) who has ever sailed one of these ships well knows. It still astonishes me any news outlet is broadcasting this narrative without correction.

 

[sam_gordon]

Of course an employee opened it - these windows are always open as anyone (over a million passengers since this class of ship debuted 15 years ago) who has ever sailed one of these ships well knows. It still astonishes me any news outlet is broadcasting this narrative without correction.

IIRC, ANYONE (passenger or crew) could open or close the windows. To me, the bigger questions is WHY does who opened the window matter? The fact is it was open when Anello took Chloe over there. According to the linked article...

"All of this was known because Royal Caribbean’s Guest Conduct Policy and crewmembers warned passengers of these dangers

Didn't they say before that there were no warnings?

They also claim there was a "near fall" incident two weeks earlier, but don't go into any details and

Among the evidence included in the new filings is a declaration from the boat's former chief security officer, Elton Koopman, who said he "personally witnessed repeated incidents of fall hazards involving the pool deck windows."

Koopman noted he "attended numerous safety meetings where such fall hazards were discussed, and he contributed in the effort to rectify the hazard by keeping the windows closed and warning passengers."

I wonder what those "incidents" entailed. Kids actually being fully held out of the windows or an adult leaning out to look over the side of the ship?

 

[tazdev3225]

I haven't commented before though I have followed this thread and the case with some interest. I think the lawsuit is totally frivolous. The grandfather, who is not a doddering old fool, did something foolish. The family is grief stricken and rather than place the blame where it lies is going after the cruise line because accepting the truth is not easy.

I rewatched the video of the incident. The grandfather put his head out that window, and had to lean forward to do so. and his upper body disappears from view. After this he picked the little girl up and put her out the window. After 10 seconds he appears to shift her position. 25 seconds later he falls to the floor and people react. If I were on a jury, and I have been on several, I would find the blame lies with the grandfather alone just based on the grainy version of the video.

I do have sympathy for the family but they need to accept the facts and move on.

 

[ronandannette]

IIRC, ANYONE (passenger or crew) could open or close the windows. To me, the bigger questions is WHY does who opened the window matter? The fact is it was open when Anello took Chloe over there. According to the linked article...
Didn't they say before that there were no warnings?

They also claim there was a "near fall" incident two weeks earlier, but don't go into any details and

I wonder what those "incidents" entailed. Kids actually being fully held out of the windows or an adult leaning out to look over the side of the ship?

Now that I think about it, you are probably right. I've sailed on this class of ship 3 times. I've never opened the windows myself, they've always just been open, but they are just big sliders; no locking mechanism, so yeah, that makes perfect sense.

 

[ronandannette]

I haven't commented before though I have followed this thread and the case with some interest. I think the lawsuit is totally frivolous. The grandfather, who is not a doddering old fool, did something foolish. The family is grief stricken and rather than place the blame where it lies is going after the cruise line because accepting the truth is not easy.

I rewatched the video of the incident. The grandfather put his head out that window, and had to lean forward to do so. and his upper body disappears from view. After this he picked the little girl up and put her out the window. After 10 seconds he appears to shift her position. 25 seconds later he falls to the floor and people react. If I were on a jury, and I have been on several, I would find the blame lies with the grandfather alone just based on the grainy version of the video.

I do have sympathy for the family but they need to accept the facts and move on.

I know we discussed the video at great length up-thread but your summary is 100% correct. I just don't understand how anyone who sees it could come to any other conclusion. There were posters even in this thread though that bought the initial "he didn't know the window was open" defense - until they saw the video.

The new premise (the window shouldn't have been open) was also supported here...by people who have never set foot on a cruise ship and were not inclined to listen to explanations of the physical environment from those of us who have. I'm not sure what the rules for civil suits are in that jurisdiction but I sure hope it is tried by a judge alone and not left to the fickle sentiments of a jury.

 

[tazdev3225]

I know we discussed the video at great length up-thread but your summary is 100% correct. I just don't understand how anyone who sees it could come to any other conclusion. There were posters even in this thread though that bought the initial "he didn't know the window was open" defense - until they saw the video.

The new premise (the window shouldn't have been open) was also supported here...by people who have never set foot on a cruise ship and were not inclined to listen to explanations of the physical environment from those of us who have. I'm not sure what the rules for civil suits are in that jurisdiction but I sure hope it is tried by a judge alone and not left to the fickle sentiments of a jury.

Even before seeing the video I doubted the premise he didn't know the window was open. The video just confirmed it for me. I have only cruised Disney so far but I understand opening the windows for air, especially in port. Having seen this ship and other videos to demonstrate how high the opened windows are and how far you have to lean I don't see how the conclusion could be any different that this man caused the death of the child through poor judgement.

I'm not sure what jurisdiction has the lawsuit, I would assume Puerto Rico. I hope they get a judge who will looks at the facts and hard evidence, not the emotional argument also. I have to say that the only time I ever saw emotion play into a jury I was on was the penalty phase of a 1st degree murder. We all concluded guilt quickly, just had 2 jurors have a hard time with the death penalty aspect. I have been on quite a few juries and found that most people put emotion aside. Either way there are no real winners here.

 

[ronandannette]

Even before seeing the video I doubted the premise he didn't know the window was open. The video just confirmed it for me. I have only cruised Disney so far but I understand opening the windows for air, especially in port. Having seen this ship and other videos to demonstrate how high the opened windows are and how far you have to lean I don't see how the conclusion could be any different that this man caused the death of the child through poor judgement.

I'm not sure what jurisdiction has the lawsuit, I would assume Puerto Rico. I hope they get a judge who will looks at the facts and hard evidence, not the emotional argument also. I have to say that the only time I ever saw emotion play into a jury I was on was the penalty phase of a 1st degree murder. We all concluded guilt quickly, just had 2 jurors have a hard time with the death penalty aspect. I have been on quite a few juries and found that most people put emotion aside. Either way there are no real winners here.

Agree - no winners exactly, but I sure hope RCCL doesn't end up being a big loser. That's just completely unfair in this instance and I say that as a person who generally inclines against automatically giving "big corporate" the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Lilsia]

Didn't they say before that there were no warnings?

This, right here, bothers me so much. They said that there was "no warning" but there was a railing. What do people think a railing is for? The railing WAS the warning.

 

[ronandannette]

This, right here, bothers me so much. They said that there was "no warning" but there was a railing. What do people think a railing is for? The railing WAS the warning.

And does a detailed warning really need to be posted to prevent people from hurling themselves out windows that are (for the average-height adult) chest-high and small enough that you'd need to actually try to make it happen? Good gravy...

 

[sam_gordon]

This, right here, bothers me so much. They said that there was "no warning" but there was a railing. What do people think a railing is for? The railing WAS the warning.

I totally agree with you. I just vaguely remember them claiming "there was no warning" (yes, logical people will find fault in that, not my point), but according to the latest article, there WAS a warning. So which is it? There was no warning and Anello didn't pay attention to the railing (which is pretty obvious), or there was a warning, supposedly indicating RCI "knew" about the "problem", and Anello ignored it. IMO, you can't have it both ways.

 

[backformore]

Im thinking that if the grandfather was not a wealthy white man on a cruise ship, if he was a man who held a toddler out a window of an apartment building, to see something - he would have prison time.
There are people in prison who have made errors in judgment resulting in the death of a child. Negligent homicide happens in many contexts. This one is only getting a lot of attention because it happened on a cruise ship, and because the parents are suing.

 

[a1tinkfans]

A senseless careless negligent heartbreaking death. Frivolous lawsuit

 

[cvjw]

Judge just threw out the family’s lawsuit against royal Caribbean. He gave a scathing ruling about the grandfather - how it was his fault. He should have known the window was open since he put his hands and upper body out of the window before holding Chloe out of that same window.

The parents say they will appeal. They should just let this one go and move on.

 

[ronandannette]

Judge just threw out the family’s lawsuit against royal Caribbean. He gave a scathing ruling about the grandfather - how it was his fault. He should have known the window was open since he put his hands and upper body out of the window before holding Chloe out of that same window.

The parents say they will appeal. They should just let this one go and move on.

It is rare to feel justice has been completely rendered but here it is. While I feel a little bad for being so happy that the ruling went against a grieving family, I am truly delighted.

 

[starvenger]

I don't see the point of an appeal here. Maybe it's the lawyer pushing for it.

 

[sam_gordon]

Here's a link to the article about the ruling.
https://nypost.com/2021/07/13/royal...ligence-in-toddler-chloe-wiegands-2019-death/

Of course they're going to say they'll appeal. What else can they say? "The judge made the right decision."? I bet there's no filing.

 

[RedAngie]

Here's a link to the article about the ruling.
https://nypost.com/2021/07/13/royal...ligence-in-toddler-chloe-wiegands-2019-death/

Of course they're going to say they'll appeal. What else can they say? "The judge made the right decision."? I bet there's no filing.

I’m glad the judge tore grandpa a new one.