Why do we let people question our existence?

[StormTigger]

**WARNING*** This is more of a rant then anything else...

I responded to yet another “why is there a gay forum” post, and the more I thought about it, the more upset I got. Not just at the poster for questioning, our existence, but for myself for responding, and basically justifying the question.

I find myself asking; “Why do we allow these people to question us?” No one ever jumps on the UK forums and asks why it’s there. Or the Canadian, although I’m sure the Spanish-speaking one has raised a few eyebrows, but has any one questioned it?

The forum, just like the LGBT community, exists. There’s nothing “In your face” about this forum, just like most of the LGBT community, it’s just another representation of a group of people. Yet people feel the need to question it and therefore our existence and we feel the need to give credit to their questions by responding.

Every time I see that question, I get angry, and the fact that I’ve given someone like that the power to get me angry just gets me more upset. Maybe I’ve just had a bad day, but it just makes me want to lash out, and not in the Disboard mature calm fashion.

People ask, “Why is there a gay forum?” It’s the same as asking “Why do LGBT’s need a safe, friendly place to go?”

Well when you can spend the day in the life of one of us, and know the daily fear we have to face, then you can ask that question. When you have to be worried that someone might notice you standing to close to your partner and “take offense” and if you are lucky start name calling, if you aren’t lucky try to beat you up. When you have to be afraid of simply telling people who you love about a small portion of who you really are and have them reject you for it. When you have to worry about being fired from your job, or thrown out of your apartment cuz of who you love. When on any given day you can turn on the TV and find out that somewhere you are a topic open for discussion. When you have to worry about what is going to happen to your partner of 10 years if something happens to you because you aren’t allowed to share the legal benefits of marriage. To be told that your “lifestyle” is dangerous to children, while it’s fine for people who ignore, abuse, mistreat their children to keep on going. Or have to worry that your kids being taken from you? Or what your kids must go through in school because of who you are? When people compare your love to pedophilia and bestiality, because they seem to forget one simple fact – CONSENTING ADULTS. When you go through what we do, then you can ask “Why a gay forum?”

Until then… We are here. The mothership ain’t coming to get us, and we ain’t just going to fade away. Deal w/ it.

 

[Rideengineer]

I totally understand where you are coming from and I also get tired of people's questioning. I run an HIV prevention program for young gay, bisexual, and curious men in Idaho. As part of our efforts we have a weekly coffee night where guys can come in and socialize and have a safe place while enjoying a free cup of coffee. So many times when I present in classes at the university I have people who are upset that their tax dollars are buying people coffee once a week. They really do not understand what it is like to not have a safe place where you can be yourself.

Here's to hoping for a more accepting and loving future for everyone!

 

[Psychometrika]

Amen Storm. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

I get equally annoyed at our community members who placate them. As I fought for DP benefits at our university, I was branded too big a radical by our "community" because I didn't just roll over and kiss the trustee's feet because they patted us on the head here and there. It's hard to fight against bigotry when you can't even count on the "community"!

As a P.S., invariably these posters start their thread with "this isn't an anti-gay thing" and/or "some of my best friends are gay but..."

 

[eliza61]

Not sure if this helps but... I am a minority working at a large fortune 500 company. When people ask me why is there an Africian american council, I turn it back around to say "Why not?" I know it's not exactly the same but I find many times when I turn the question back to them, it leaves them stuttering and flabergasted and once in a very small while the person actually realizes how idiotic a question that is.
Hope you have a disney day anyway

 

[iankh]

I absoulutely refuse to placate and pander to these people. I have been around too many years and am just tired. I leave educating people to others now. I just don't have the energy.

I will not justify my existence to anyone at anytime.

You know, people can pick any number of things about me not to like. If its not my being gay, then its being Jewish.

I get questions on both counts, and both are treated with icey answers.

I want to tell people to leave the mall, go read a book, see the world, meet people, get an education.

Now here's a caveat, if someone approaches me with a desire for understanding and openness, then my approach is different. Then I'm a paragon of patience.

There can be a big difference in approach:

"Why do gays need a community" and "I'd like to understand more about the gay community."

Sort of like the difference between, "You mean you really don't believe Jesus was the Messiah" and "I'd like to learn more about Judaism"

One approach comes inherent with a "what's wrong with you" attitude, and the other with "I'd like to learn more" attitude.

 

[RickinNYC]

Frankly, I'd rather have folks ask open and honest questions, even if they're worded inappropriately or insensitively, rather than harbor any resentments or cling to their stereotypes. Otherwise, how are people going to learn? Acceptance isn't gained by osmosis.

 

[Melora]

Its amazing to me how much life changes when one of your children announces he or she is gay.

I've always been very liberal and supportive of the gay community and irritated with stupidity but suddenly it turns to outrage when one of your children comes out and that stupidity is directed at them.

Suddenly there are people out there who judge your child and dont even know them. Knowing your child will not have the same rights as other people. It outrages me beyond belief.

And at the bottom of it all? Morality. Mostly religious induced morality. If people choose to take the word of the Bible literally and point out that it says men shall not lay with other men, then they must follow ALL words of the Bible, including Deuteronomy where it tells you to stone your disobediant child to death. When presented with this verse, most would say "Oh but no one would ever do that, that was an outdated law. We are more civilized now and know that would not be right". If you're going to be literal about the Bible and use it make other peoples life a living Hell than you must be literal about every part of it. Not just what suits you. Other wise shut up and stop waving it around like it is the do all and end all of how to live your life.

OK sorry for my soapboxing!

 

[ChrizJen]

First of all, you shouldn't feel the need to justify your feelings. Rant all you want!!!
I agree that it gets tiresome to have to qualify our existence to people who have no idea. Someone who has never had to deal with discrimination or hate would have no clue as to why we would have our own forum.

But I also see some validity in what Rick said. I would rather they ask than for them to not know and hold hostility towards us. And what iankh said also makes sense. How you word a question can have a huge impact on how it is received.

I think that what the OP of the thread in question probably meant to say was that some people see our forum as more of a voluntary separation of ourselves from the rest of society. Whether or not it was meant to stir things up, I don't know. But unfortunately there are people who have so little knowledge of what it's like to be us that they genuinely do not understand. And in that situation, I think that they should be allowed to ask. I think that anyone who sincerely wants to know more should feel safe asking here.

But as stated before, it would be nice if the questions were posed in a less accusatory tone than "Why do you need your own forum?” It's like asking "What makes you so special?" And my answer would be that we're not asking to be treated "special". We're asking to be treated the same as any other human being. And until we get that equal treatment, and we no longer have to live in fear for our safety and basic human rights, we need a place where we as a group can talk openly and freely. And as for the separation issue, it's been said before: this forum is no more separate from the rest of society than any other forum here. We openly welcome anyone here in our discussions. Just like any other forum, we simply ask that you're respectful of other people.

And as long as respectful people genuinely want to know more about us, I do hope that we can continue use this forum as a means to educate them.

 

[bubie2.5]

I find myself asking; “Why do we allow these people to question us?” No one ever jumps on the UK forums and asks why it’s there. Or the Canadian, although I’m sure the Spanish-speaking one has raised a few eyebrows, but has any one questioned it?

Yes it was questioned in a thread in the CM, that thread is now closed.

 

[Psychometrika]

"But, gentlemen of the jury, there are many kinds of silence. Consider first the silence of a man who is dead. Let us suppose we go into the room where he is laid out, and we listen: what do we hear? Silence. What does it betoken, this silence? Nothing; this is silence pure and simple. But let us take another case. Suppose I were to take a dagger from my sleeve and make to kill the prisoner with it; and my lordships there, instead of crying out for me to stop, maintained their silence. That would betoken! It would betoken a willingness that I should do it, and under the law, they will be guilty with me. So silence can, according to the circumstances, speak! Let us consider now the circumstances of the prisoner's silence. The oath was put to loyal subjects up and down the country, and they all declared His Grace's title to be just and good. But when it came to the prisoner, he refused! He calls this silence. Yet is there a man in this court - is there a man in this country! - who does not know Sir Thomas More's opinion of this title?" (Scripted version of Thomas More)

In all deference to Rick - rarely are questions posted in these forums devoid of implications and undertones. The pleas of "I'm not anti-gay, but let me ask you this..." etc. don't make the question innocent. Further, once you read the followup posts by the original author, it is clear there is an agenda. The differences expressed well by Ian are unmistakable. What *I* need to learn is to let them go and avoid responding. I'm a slow learner.

 

[StormTigger]

StormTigger feeling better today...

I have to admit that the day I wrote the "rant" I wasn't in the best of moods to start w/ and then when I come here to my "happy place" and find that, it was just the last straw.

Sometimes it helps to rant to others, and I thank you guys for not blasting me, like I half expected.

Iankh you are right it's all in the approach.

Rick, I'd be happy to help educate if that was the true purpose. But if that is the purpose of the post, why is there never a follow up post by the OP? The question is always answered very maturely, although sometimes emotionally, but there is rarely if ever a responds or more clairification from the OP ... just stiring stuff up and then leaving.

Then again ... I don't know.. maybe ... I'm just to jaded to see the world thru Disney-tint glasses anymore.

bubie2.5 - thank you for correcting me. Another reason you (meaning me) shouldn't go off half cocked w/o all the facts. That one must have really gotten heated if they actually closed the thread. I'm not going to go looking for it though, I'm going to try to stay in my happy place for a couple more hours at least.

Everyone who's responded

Melora a special hug for you.

And once again to WebmasterPete and the other Webmasters and mods, etc ... thanks again for having this forum where we can rant & rave in-between the good times.

Anyway, it's now Friday at 1am, hopefully I'm done ranting for the week!

 

[bubie2.5]

bubie2.5 - thank you for correcting me. Another reason you (meaning me) shouldn't go off half cocked w/o all the facts. That one must have really gotten heated if they actually closed the thread. I'm not going to go looking for it though, I'm going to try to stay in my happy place for a couple more hours at least.

You’re welcome Tigger. I’m both a lesbian and a bilingual American, so if it’s not one thing is the other. I’m used to it, so I refuse to defend who I am or what language I choose to use at home.

 

[RickinNYC]

You’re welcome Tigger. I’m both a lesbian and a bilingual American, so if it’s not one thing is the other. I’m used to it, so I refuse to defend who I am or what language I choose to use at home.

You're a BILINGUAL?

Ewwww.... I'm leaving now.

 

[RickinNYC]

In all deference to Rick - rarely are questions posted in these forums devoid of implications and undertones. The pleas of "I'm not anti-gay, but let me ask you this..." etc. don't make the question innocent. Further, once you read the followup posts by the original author, it is clear there is an agenda. The differences expressed well by Ian are unmistakable. What *I* need to learn is to let them go and avoid responding. I'm a slow learner.

Rick, I'd be happy to help educate if that was the true purpose. But if that is the purpose of the post, why is there never a follow up post by the OP? The question is always answered very maturely, although sometimes emotionally, but there is rarely if ever a responds or more clairification from the OP ... just stiring stuff up and then leaving.

I don't doubt what you're saying, either of you. Nor do I disagree. In fact, I agree with both of you 100%. Yet, at the same token, I do recall not long ago (ok, long ago to some of you but just yesterday to me) while I was in college at Stony Brook on Long Island in the mid to late 80's, seeing blatant homophobia and incredibly violent behaviors.

One case in point I remember to this day was a young lady who was looking into the window of a gay bar in the middle of Greenwich Village in Manhattan. She was not gay, but was looking for a friend of hers that was. A few guys walked by, called her some names, then smashed her head THROUGH the window she had been looking in.

On another occasion, an extremely popular gay bar in lower Manhattan, for lack of any better word, was under siege. Someone kept stopping by during the popular nights and dropping lit M80's on the floor or in trash cans. Nobody was ever hurt but the panic that ensued was pretty intense.

And twice, my absolute closest friend has been bashed, not once but twice. This is a guy who wouldn't hurt a fly, who goes the extra mile to help out friends and total strangers. He volunteers his time to a homeless organization, a food rescue non-profit, a gay/lesbian community center, and more. In fact, he even volunteered to be an NYC family ambassador during the Republican National Convention, going to the airport to meet/greet a family, bring them to their hotel and make sure they knew where they were going, what to do, how to get around, etc... He made friggin' gift bags for their kids! And society shows it's appreciation for his actions by hospitalizing him twice.

I know that homophobia is still around, even if it's diminishing as each day goes by. Nevertheless, I am also willing to recognize that times have indeed changed for the better. When I was in college, the only gay character we had on television was some guy from Dynasty. And that was big for the time! Years prior was Jodi from Soap. That was HUGE! Now, gay characters are as boring and as commonplace on TV as any other. Now THAT is huge. Gay mainstream movies become Oscar nominated money making hits. Pop stars and other celebrities are coming out of the closet more and more frequently.

Do I think questions like, "Why a gay board?" are offensive. Yeah, I do. But I'll answer those questions with a little humor and as much dignity as I can muster. Rather then get my hackles up, I'll turn their passive aggressive, not-so-very-hidden bias and turn it back on them with a smile in hopes that they will see the ignorance in their question.

That, to me, is more effective than turning a cold shoulder, yelling, pointing, or otherwise getting all riled up. Kill them with kindness. It works.

 

[bubie2.5]

You're a BILINGUAL?

Ewwww.... I'm leaving now.

NEVER to use bilingual and lesbian in the same sentence.

 

[Uncle Remus]

Okay, thought I'd chime in on this thread too:
I get po'd when I get the "All American Christian" emails and such that includes our country was founded on Christianity, blah, blah, blah and DON'T TELL me your "lifestyle"! Well, if we weren't living in a country where the assumption is that ALL people are heterosexual and Christian, I wouldn't HAVE TO! One would think in the 21st century and in the United States of America, people would be more educated and enlightened to the fact that THIS country has breeds of ALL kinds, course, one would think that ALL of us would have those inalienable rights that the god worshippers say we're entitled to also.
I will say I think we as a LGBT community should continue to demand our CONSTITUTIONAL rights regardless of the god issue even though the religious faction of the country seems quite powerful right now, continue to educate those around us by just being ourselves because we are good people, and infiltrate the major population by acting as though we have a RIGHT to be there...I'm talkin' 'bout you, RickinNYC! (That was fabulous!!) You posted the great news in the community board and while I didn't read the whole thread, I believe (and hope, too) that it was well received by that board. That being said, maybe we don't need a gay and lesbian board? Don't get me wrong, I love this board, but I do tend to hang out more over at the community board, however I do have to catch myself to not post something that could be misconstrued coz my name here is Uncle Remus and causes the reader to ASSUME.

 

[StormTigger]

The rant may have been needed therapy for me, but it's when I just babble when I stick my foot in my mouth.

Like iankh said, the intent may have been good, it's the approach that stunk.

Rick - The "Disney-colored glasses" comment, off-base and I apologize. All I can say after you've seen and gone thru all that and still able to give people the benifit of the doubt, you are a bigger man then I am, and I'm not just saying that cuz you stand 5-6 inches taller then me if I remember correctly!

 

[RickinNYC]

The rant may have been needed therapy for me, but it's when I just babble when I stick my foot in my mouth.

Like iankh said, the intent may have been good, it's the approach that stunk.

Rick - The "Disney-colored glasses" comment, off-base and I apologize. All I can say after you've seen and gone thru all that and still able to give people the benifit of the doubt, you are a bigger man then I am, and I'm not just saying that cuz you stand 5-6 inches taller then me if I remember correctly!

Absolutely rest assured that there is no need to apologize whatsoever. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and moreso, everyone is entitled to get frustrated at perceived insensitivity. Venting is good for the soul. I can also tell you that your vent was well deserved as far as I'm concerned. I've done it myself, with a lot less restraint than you showed.

And I'm 6'4" dude. Watch y'self.