WWOHP effect on WDW

[skier_pete]

Ah mitros...how I've missed your grumbling....

My opinion has remained unchange. Short-term this is a big boost for Universal and a small hit for Disney. Long-term this is a small boost for Universal and a smaller boost for Disney.

Think of it this way - if Universal boosted its total attendance by 10 % thanks to WWOHP, that would be considered an absolute HUGE success, do you disagree?

In 2008, Universal had 11,528,000 visitors to it's 2 theme parks.
In 2008, Disney had 47,146,000 visitors to it's 4 main theme parks (i didn't include TL or BB, which would skew the #s further).

So a 10% boost in Uni attendance would be 1.15 Million. If every single one of those people were siphoned from Disney, that would drop their attendance figures to ~46.0 million, or a 2.5 % attendance drop. However, let's assume HALF those 1.15 Million are people that wouldn't normally be coming to Florida, and so since they are coming anyways, decide to visit both Disney and Universal. If we assume they spend 4 days at Disney for every 2 days at Universal, that would actually lead to an added 1.15 million visitors at Disney. Which would mean they would see no affect by WWOHP.

As I've also said before...when the bidding was going out for Harry Potter, do not think these numbers were thought of by Disney. If Disney had wanted HP, they would've gotten it. It didn't make sense to Disney. They would have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars and STILL continue to pay for the rights to someone elses property.

In the end, we'll see the numbers in a few years - but I would bet that Disney ain't sweating this much.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Universal signed with Rowling without the offer ever going out to bid. She did not want to get involved in a bidding war and all of the hullaballoo that was sure to ensue. There was some mutual contacts and the deal was signed, sealed and delivered without Disney even knowing. Michael Eisner was absolutely LIVID and I'll bet people were fired somewhere at Disney, but that's what happened. So Disney not wanting HP is not a part of the equation.

Re: The hit WDW may or may not take, this doesn't matter to me, the fact is Universal out-Disneyed Disney once again on the scale of the theming of the WWOHP and the quality of the totally awesome FJ attraction seems to speak volumes toward the current mindset on creativity between the two, IMO..

WDW will respond in kind when and if they feel the need. Like I said, sheer size will never put this competition on equal footing but IMO Universal is now a safe bet to be a quality offering in the tourist landscape of Orlando for years to come -
which was not the case in the past couple of years.

I might add that it will be very difficult for anyone to make comment on the quality of the WWOHP without seeing it. I personally thought it would be good but I had NO IDEA it could ever be this SPECTACULAR. Your senses are totally transported into this world like no other "land" in any other Park that I've seen.

 

[FireDancer]

It is impossible to tell yet what the long term effect will be for either park. Right now a lot of people are heading over there because it is new. The question will be are 3 rides and a bunch of shops enough to keep people coming back again and again? Maybe, maybe not. If people who currently do 5 days at Disney at 1 at US start doing 5 at US and 1 at Disney it will be a problem. If people spend one extra day there instead of one extra day in Disney it isn't that big of a deal, especially if that is only on their first visit or two.

I think it is a mistake to look at US as Disney's main competition. I know of no one that goes to the Orlando area and doesn't go to Disney at all. If the main draw is US and Disney is only secondary they are still getting the tourist dollars even if it is a few less dollars. Their main competition is every other vacation destination. If someone chooses an Alaskan cruise, a trip through Tuscany, or a Six Flags somewhere else in the country instead of a theme park in the Orlando area then Disney is not getting anything. Unless of course that cruise is on a Disney trip or the Tuscany trip is booked through ABD.

We will see how the Fantasy Land refurb in FL and cars land in DCA compare with WWoHP on scale.

 

[skier_pete]

I think it is a mistake to look at US as Disney's main competition. I know of no one that goes to the Orlando area and doesn't go to Disney at all. If the main draw is US and Disney is only secondary they are still getting the tourist dollars even if it is a few less dollars. Their main competition is every other vacation destination. If someone chooses an Alaskan cruise, a trip through Tuscany, or a Six Flags somewhere else in the country instead of a theme park in the Orlando area then Disney is not getting anything. Unless of course that cruise is on a Disney trip or the Tuscany trip is booked through ABD.

This is it in a nutshell. If WWOHP keeps people coming to Orlando - that's good for Disney & the Orlando economy.

 

[mitros]

Ah mitros...how I've missed your grumbling....

My opinion has remained unchange. Short-term this is a big boost for Universal and a small hit for Disney. Long-term this is a small boost for Universal and a smaller boost for Disney.

Think of it this way - if Universal boosted its total attendance by 10 % thanks to WWOHP, that would be considered an absolute HUGE success, do you disagree?

In 2008, Universal had 11,528,000 visitors to it's 2 theme parks.
In 2008, Disney had 47,146,000 visitors to it's 4 main theme parks (i didn't include TL or BB, which would skew the #s further).

So a 10% boost in Uni attendance would be 1.15 Million. If every single one of those people were siphoned from Disney, that would drop their attendance figures to ~46.0 million, or a 2.5 % attendance drop. However, let's assume HALF those 1.15 Million are people that wouldn't normally be coming to Florida, and so since they are coming anyways, decide to visit both Disney and Universal. If we assume they spend 4 days at Disney for every 2 days at Universal, that would actually lead to an added 1.15 million visitors at Disney. Which would mean they would see no affect by WWOHP.

As I've also said before...when the bidding was going out for Harry Potter, do not think these numbers were thought of by Disney. If Disney had wanted HP, they would've gotten it. It didn't make sense to Disney. They would have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars and STILL continue to pay for the rights to someone elses property.

In the end, we'll see the numbers in a few years - but I would bet that Disney ain't sweating this much.

Aw, gee, ya' missed me? Well stand by, there's plenty more where this came from..........

 

[skier_pete]

Aw, gee, ya' missed me? Well stand by, there's plenty more where this came from..........

I do enjoy reading your posts...you remind me a little of Grumpy...always complaining, but I know your complaining is because you really care about Disney, or else you wouldn't complain about it so much. I hope you do find some small pleasures there in amongst all those crowds of people, falling apart rides, and the crappy food.

 

[poeticdiabetic]

This is it in a nutshell. If WWOHP keeps people coming to Orlando - that's good for Disney & the Orlando economy.

Correct. That's kinda what I said a while back is that the pattern is set. People spend 5 days at Disney and one or two days at US/IOA. Even if US/IOA expands WWHOP into a larger park, it will still be that way.

The only way for that to change is for US/IOA to open new hotels and restaurants. If US/IOA opened some value and moderate hotels, that would be called "competition." If they opened up and expanded their parks, along with those hotels, that would be competion.

But why would US/IOA spend that kinda money? It's the same reason why you won't see Narnia or Middle Earth recreated anytime soon at WDW: They both make money when new things opens up at each park. Universal people loved it when EE opened up. WDW loves it now. Know why? Because it doesn't upset the pattern of the Orlando vacationer.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

This isn't about guest numbers at WDW or Universal, it's about creativity and imagination. Currently Universal is showing a willingness to give it to us and Disney is not.

If your love of Disney is just for them to be a profitable conglomerate then I agree that you have nothing to fear. Their MBS'a will keep the dollars going into those corporate coffers. But if you're looking at things from a guests perspective it's awfully impressive to see that one park has taken the biggest cultural phenomenon in years and turned it into a MAGICAL wonderland (Narnia is no Harry Potter). It is imagination at it's best and it has nothing to do with whether Universal will take crowds from WDW or not. To me that means nothing.

 

[Cheshire Figment]

According to the TEA report from a couple of months ago, the following Central Florida Theme Parks were in the Worldwide Top 25 based on attendance:

1. The Magic Kingdom
6. Epcot
7. Disney's Hollywood Studios
8. Disney's Animal Kingdom
12. Sea World
13. Universal Studios
17. Islands of Adventure
23. Busch Gardens Tampa

And a side note for those interested, the following were in the Worldwide Top 20 Waterparks:

1. Typhoon Lagoon
2. Blizzard Beach
4. Aquatica
7. Wet and Wild
16. Adventure Island

And you can click here for the full report.

 

[ab*cdn*mouse]

This isn't about guest numbers at WDW or Universal, it's about creativity and imagination. Currently Universal is showing a willingness to give it to us and Disney is not.

If your love of Disney is just for them to be a profitable conglomerate then I agree that you have nothing to fear. Their MBS'a will keep the dollars going into those corporate coffers. But if you're looking at things from a guests perspective it's awfully impressive to see that one park has taken the biggest cultural phenomenon in years and turned it into a MAGICAL wonderland (Narnia is no Harry Potter). It is imagination at it's best and it has nothing to do with whether Universal will take crowds from WDW or not. To me that means nothing.

Is Harry Potter actually Universal's creativity - I had heard that Warner Bros creative people were involved with it. Looking at what Disney has put out with World of Color and I expect the new cars land at DLR and this partnering with Pixar, Disney still has some imagination at work.

I am looking forward to seeing US and IOA (with WWHOP) this December 2010. I am sure that it will be great to see this new addition to the Orlando scene.

As for imagination at it's best, we will have to see how long HP plays out, two years at least one would expect with the last two movies coming out.

As well, let's see what imagination US puts into the rest of its resorts (with their next hotel and the theme that they use (or Loews uses)). They do have some great ideas for their hotel guests such as the express pass for hotel guests (I have heard that it beats the fastpass). It would be interesting to see if Disney could pull of this with its 20+ resorts and all those guests having such an access.

 

[lugnut33]

Personally I'm looking forward to the Fantasyland expansion more than the WWHP, but that's just me.

I don't really think it's fair to say Disney Imagineering is being out-imagineered, especially when you look at what is going on at Disneyland and DCA. There are some really awesome shows and attractions opening there and a BILLION dollars being spent. You can't just think of themeparks as being WDW only because Disneyland is still important (personally, I like DL better than WDW).

 

[skiingfast]

I don't really think it's fair to say Disney Imagineering is being out-imagineered, especially when you look at what is going on at Disneyland and DCA. There are some really awesome shows and attractions opening there and a BILLION dollars being spent. You can't just think of themeparks as being WDW only because Disneyland is still important (personally, I like DL better than WDW).

It's a good point but also consider that Disney is putting in two new cruise ships and expanding it's DL's in Paris and Hong Kong as well.

FWIW having been there if you saw what Disney is doing in DCA you wouldn't think of WWHP being anything grand just a new ride.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

So now Universal Florida has to keep pace with all Disney Parks worldwide and the DCL!!! Nothing like diluting the discussion. I don't understand all of the apologizing for Disney whenever anything puts them in a less than perfect light.

The implementation of WWOHP was a huge 'team' effort that did include Warner's creative people to a great extent, but what's the point? Creativity is creativity and it was USF that did it and honestly we know a LOT of Disney trained former imagineers had a lot to do with it. You know those folks Disney didn't feel they needed anymore. So, of course, it looks a lot something Disney would have done.

The continued argument that the popularity of the WWOHP is simply going to go away when the last movie is released is so tired. HP is a worldwide phenomenon and if you'll notice most of what Disney is built on is pretty 'classic' stuff itself. Add to that that Rowling WILL be continuing the theme in another vein which will keep HP current. If you personally don't like HP, fine, but don't condescend that a personal opinion is a widely held view. I happen to hate caviar but you'll never hear me say that caviar is awful food for clearly it's my palette that's not educated enough to appreciate it. Plus Michael Eisner wanted the rights to HP VERY, VERY much. He just didn't get the chance. So I wonder if HP was at say MGM you guys would be singing a different tune? I think you would.

I also really want to see Disney's Wonderful World of Color at DL at DCA (DL is also my favorite Park) but I can't believe anyone can compare a water show to the WWOHP, it is inconceivable.

I reiterate, if you haven't seen the WWOHP then you simply cannot conceive of it's magnitude and quality and must be very careful to make rash judgements. Think the quality of the E:E at AK and multiply it by about 50.

This is not just an attraction addition like Indy, E:E or TOT, this is a whole land and while it's true that it only has what, three rides and only one is new there is plenty of opportunity for expansion in the future. But for now even the darn gift shops and counter service restaurants have lines to get in. The decision to pace themselves was a good one lest there'd be rioting in the parking garages to get in line first!

It's sad that so many have to see this as Disney vs. Universal. It's really about us, the guest. As long as Disney does what they do and Universal and Sea World do what they do, isn't that good for all of us? My main complaint with Disney is that they've become a business more than an entertainer and I'd prefer they do it the other way around. The way they used to, when all of this "magic" stuff was made.

 

[poeticdiabetic]

This isn't about guest numbers at WDW or Universal, it's about creativity and imagination. Currently Universal is showing a willingness to give it to us and Disney is not.

If your love of Disney is just for them to be a profitable conglomerate then I agree that you have nothing to fear. Their MBS'a will keep the dollars going into those corporate coffers. But if you're looking at things from a guests perspective it's awfully impressive to see that one park has taken the biggest cultural phenomenon in years and turned it into a MAGICAL wonderland (Narnia is no Harry Potter). It is imagination at it's best and it has nothing to do with whether Universal will take crowds from WDW or not. To me that means nothing.

That's not true concerning Disney. US/IOA has done a fantastic job putting together great rides and WWHOP is being highly touted as a truly fun experience, but that doesn't discount everything that Disney has done at WDW. To say that reveals bias, because it was only a couple of years when EE was the "big thing." Or TOT. Or Mission to Mars. We can go on and on.

At Universal, I can remember Jurassic Park. Or (my favorite ride of all time) Revenge of the Mummy. I can go on and on.

Creativity and innovation is great when it comes to rides and the riding experience. I personally think that US/IOA have better rides than WDW. I think the water rides gets you wetter at US/IOA than at WDW. I think that ROTM is the best themed ride of any park. I love the Simpsons ride. I love the fact that there were people from all around the world was standing in line one time when we were there... and the queue was making everyone laugh. That was great.

WDW have rides that I love, too. My second favorite ride at any park is TOT. 3rd favorite? Mars, baby! Orange!

But creativity and innovation goes beyond the rides, though. What WDW have that US/IOA doesn't is the ability to totally immerse people into a fantasyland. Only at WDW can you spend a whole week and eat at a different restaurant every meal, shop at different shops, watch a show, sleep at a value, moderate or luxury hotel and go to 4 theme parks and 2 water parks- all without having to leave the property!

Plus, you can eat and shop without having your wallet or purse. You don't have to carry your purchased stuff around, because someone would take it up to your room. And you don't need your cash or credit card to buy food- just use your little card that serves as your ticket, charge card and room key.

That's creative and innovative, too. And that creativity is why the vacationer pattern is set.


But this is a win for both companies. US/IOA proved to the world that they can put together an experience that is truly immersible. As a result, the turnstiles are turning at a great pace.

WDW is happy because that means that people are coming to their hotels, parks and restaurants, as well... even though they might spend a day or two at US/IOA.

In other words, this whole US/IOA vs. WDW competition thing is an illusion. US/IOA have their niche and WDW have their niche. They both feed off each other. You think US/IOA is going to be mad when Star Tours 2 opens up at WDW?

 

[Virtucomp]

Let me start by saying that we've never gone to Universal on any of our trips to WDW. When Harry Potter opened I started looking into including Universal on our next trip.

Everyone here is into Potter. The kids grew up with the books and the movies. They regularly depate the differences between the two.

As I see the new Universal offering I see two roller coasters re-themed to be Harry Potter so they were not planned from the ground up to be for the books. There is the Forbidden Journey which sounds like a wonderful attraction and fits perfectly with the theme of course. I'd love to see the attraction.

Then the remainder of the area sounds to me like souveniers and food. Not that I'm knocking Universal for the idea but I don't want to spend hours waiting and walking around gift shops to spend my money on stuff that will loose it's interest as soon as we get home.

I'd much more like to see smaller attractions spread around the area to cater to all families. Suppose I have a 3 yr old that does not ride roller coasters. I can go on one attraction if it's not too scary.

 

[ChrisFL]

Fantasyland is so yawn inducing though. Sure it will look pretty, but this "whole land" is only one new ride, one existing ride cloned and moved, and lots of shops and restaurants....

....why is that any better than what WWOHP?

 

[MaleficentandGoons]

TO me WWoHP has so much more to give. Yes there are only two more movies left but UNLIKE Star Wars it's a book. Which means that my great great grandchild will be able to read the series and enjoy it one day. The Star Wars ride is so out of date right now and even if you watch the movies it's still not as exciting as reading an book. Does that make sense?

Anyway there are many things that can be added on to WWHP and I'm sure they will be. Like The Dark Forest, Gringotts, The Weasleys home, The Black home.

 

[poeticdiabetic]

TO me WWoHP has so much more to give. Yes there are only two more movies left but UNLIKE Star Wars it's a book. Which means that my great great grandchild will be able to read the series and enjoy it one day. The Star Wars ride is so out of date right now and even if you watch the movies it's still not as exciting as reading an book. Does that make sense?

Anyway there are many things that can be added on to WWHP and I'm sure they will be. Like The Dark Forest, Gringotts, The Weasleys home, The Black home.

Star Wars have books that goes WAYYY beyond Luke Skywalker defeating the Emperor. WAY beyond. There's the Jedi Academy trilogy. There's the New Jedi Order, the Nagai-Tof War. There's the Battle of Mindor and the return of the Emperor. There's the 2nd Galactic Civil War... goodness! And don't get me started on Luke's descendants and apprentices.

So there's a whole lot more to the story than the movies. Star Wars stories are still being written and canonized even now. And there are more books about the Star Wars Universe and the stories therein than I can ever read.

 

[tjkraz]

Universal signed with Rowling without the offer ever going out to bid. She did not want to get involved in a bidding war and all of the hullaballoo that was sure to ensue. There was some mutual contacts and the deal was signed, sealed and delivered without Disney even knowing. Michael Eisner was absolutely LIVID and I'll bet people were fired somewhere at Disney, but that's what happened. So Disney not wanting HP is not a part of the equation.

Plus Michael Eisner wanted the rights to HP VERY, VERY much. He just didn't get the chance.

I'm not a Harry Potter fan and didn't follow this situation very closely at all. But is there some source (website?) that explains your comments above in greater detail?

The only thing I ever read about HP's theme park history suggested that Rowling did meet with Disney. However, some of her suggestions (demands?) for a themed land were not met with a very warm reception. That, combined with financial terms which were not very favorable, caused Disney to lose interest from what I read.

I'm not sure how Eisner would have been involved either. He left Disney in 2005 and the deal with Universal wasn't announced until 2007. I find it hard to believe that a deal was actually struck during Eisner's tenure but US chose to sit on it for 2-3 years.

Either way, I'd be curious to read another version of the history.

...it's about creativity and imagination. Currently Universal is showing a willingness to give it to us and Disney is not.

On this point I wholeheartedly disagree. Disney and Universal have been involved in a game of one upmanship for years. It should come as no surprise that Universal's latest and greatest trumps recent Disney offerings in a variety of ways. But Disney has certainly had its own share of innovations in recent years.

Most of their efforts have been geared toward the Living Character Initiative and now they have a lot of RFID projects in the hopper. I wouldn't be surprised if many of those elements start to come to fruition in Fantasyland within the next couple of years.

This isn't the 1950s (or even the 1980s) when Disney was the only serious player in town. Comments like this...

...we know a LOT of Disney trained former imagineers had a lot to do with it. You know those folks Disney didn't feel they needed anymore. So, of course, it looks a lot something Disney would have done.

...paint a very incomplete picture of the situation. We aren't just talking about talented and bitter former Imagineers who were kicked to the curb and are working their butts off with a chip on the shoulder. People leave jobs for a variety of reasons.

And I'm sure there are more than a few people involved with WWoHP who did not earn that Disney pedigree. Heck I could point you toward a dozen different books which detail Disney design philosophies. You don't need to have WDI on the resume in order to mirror what Disney has put out there for the last 55 years.

 

[plutotek]

Star Wars have books that goes WAYYY beyond Luke Skywalker defeating the Emperor. WAY beyond. There's the Jedi Academy trilogy. There's the New Jedi Order, the Nagai-Tof War. There's the Battle of Mindor and the return of the Emperor. There's the 2nd Galactic Civil War... goodness! And don't get me started on Luke's descendants and apprentices.

So there's a whole lot more to the story than the movies. Star Wars stories are still being written and canonized even now. And there are more books about the Star Wars Universe and the stories therein than I can ever read.

However, the extended stories relating to SW are, for the most part, little more than pulp/dime novels, exhibiting some creative elements, but they are not on the same level as series such as those created by Tolkien/Lewis/Rowling.