If the flattening isn't working is it time to face reality?

[SaintsManiac]

I'm really perturbed by this notion floating around that the older generation should just take one for the team, accept this might kill them and go on with life as it was. How many people over 65 would gladly just say "welp, I had a good run!"

We live in a society where money is more important than people.

 

[mnrose]

We live in a society where money is more important than people.

Any my ability to buy my XBox (or any other gizmo) is more important than an older or sicker person's right to life. All lives matter. Right. Convenient slogan.

 

[skyblue17]

Any my ability to buy my XBox (or any other gizmo) is more important than an older or sicker person's right to life. All lives matter. Right. Convenient slogan.

Right? Kind interesting that it's mostly the "pro-life" squad that is pushing this so far. But not surprising.

 

[fatmanatee]

BTW, just to follow up on the original question, in Italy the number of new cases each day has been decreasing for the past couple of days so it's an early sign that flattening *does* work. I think the big question here is if we've committed enough to the cause to make it work for us.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

Not only that but I think people seriously underestimate the impact this virus will have on our economy if they "open" everything back up, hospitals become overwhelmed, doctors and nurses start dying in unprecedented numbers, and the death rate climbs. Don't know about you all, but I'm not traveling anywhere anytime soon, shut down or no. I'm waiting till this virus is "under control" whether things are "open" or not. And, I suspect I'm not alone in that thought process. If the infection rate and death rate keep climbing (currently doubling every two days, meaning we'd be on track to hit a million in no time flat), is everyone just going to keep on keeping on? Uh, no. Delusional thinking.

Yep - our family is in lock down until the virus is in hand no matter what the government does.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

BTW, just to follow up on the original question, in Italy the number of new cases each day has been decreasing for the past couple of days so it's an early sign that flattening *does* work. I think the big question here is if we've committed enough to the cause to make it work for us.

We are not - at least, not at a federal level. Some states may be, but they will have to ban travel from other states to protect themselves.

 

[gwynne]

Yep - our family is in lock down until the virus is in hand no matter what the government does.

Us too.
Because it's much safer for our community, and most especially safer for the hard working health care workers.

Just to add- I understand and respect that there are essential workers that must be out and about.

But for those of us that are able to help by staying home, that effort is important in its own way.

 

[Notrealname]

I'm really perturbed by this notion floating around that the older generation should just take one for the team, accept this might kill them and go on with life as it was. How many people over 65 would gladly just say "welp, I had a good run!"

Not me.
I’m taking one for the team by staying home.
I’m looking forward to many more years of a good run.
I’m angry at guys my age who have a podium looking to short circuit the strategy of choice recommended by the scientists and physicians.
I’m even angrier at that senile old idiot in Texas urging us old guys to die.

 

[lovemygoofy]

The messaging has been so very poor from the start with this. Frankly people think some generations are expendable and it doesn't help when the older say "I'm not afraid to die" or " I've lived through this that or the other and damn well can do what I want."

At this point for some cities it's not even about saving the older or the at risk. It's about the medical people. We NEED trained medical people. None of us hardly going to tag in to do a heart surgery or intubate our loved one from watching a how to on You Tube. This is about infrastructure. People so focused on the numbers of this emergency but forget life still happening and people having heart attacks and cancer and car accidents or whatever else causes people to take up hospital beds. People can be damn heroic by sitting at home and waiting for some of this to settle down so we don't have to start intubating people with a straw we can't find or sanitize a knife with hand sanitizer we can't find like we are MacGyver.

 

[Colleen27]

Is it possible the US is doing something right? I don't think anyone can argue that there are probably more Corona virus cases than have been reported, between a lack of testing and those with minor symptoms (or no symptoms) who wouldn't get tested anyway.

But I would think the number of deaths would be fairly accurate. Using the numbers at the time I write this (46,168 cases, 582 deaths), that's a 1.2% death rate. Compared to world wide numbers, 4.3% case death rate. So what are we doing "right"? Spain has slightly less cases (39k), but over five times as many deaths (2696). Italy has about 50% more cases (64k), but over 10 times as many deaths (6k). On the opposite end, Germany has 30k cases and 130 deaths (0.4%). Austria has 25 deaths for 4800 cases (0.5%).

I'm not saying we're over the hump yet and things should return to "normal" tomorrow. But is what we're currently doing "enough" (just keep it going for another 3-4 weeks and then evaluate again)?

The death rates don't really start to climb until the medical system is overwhelmed. We're not there yet, but odds are we will be.

However, it is possible that the sheer size of our country will work in our favor, because we may be able to shift some resources around as local areas experience their peak at different times. Of course, that assumes we're mobilizing additional resources to places of particular need, and right now, there's not a lot of that being done.

I wish I could say that I am surprised, but people everywhere are saying things like, "more will die from the economy than from this virus". In other words, normally good people have allowed themselves to support an abhorrent idea by believing that more people will die if they don't. They see no alternative but millions of dead, so let it be the old people.

I think that, to borrow a phrase that came up on another thread, the demographics of the DIS makes it hard for people to see this perspective, because people dying for lack of money or health care probably isn't a reality in most DISers lives. But it is the case for a lot of people in this country, so I can't really condemn them for their thinking. Tens of thousands of people die of preventable causes in this country for lack of health insurance every year, and anything that causes the levels of unemployment this is going to cause is going to increase those numbers dramatically. I already know one family who is likely to be facing eviction if this lasts into next month, and another who lost the health insurance that pays for her adult child's insulin. I know two recovering addicts who have lost access to their support systems (because AA & NA are shut down, along with most counseling facilities), one of whom has also lost access to his opioid-replacement medication and is facing physical withdrawal as well as the lack of emotional support, and two kids who are now shut at home with physically abusive parents. These aren't unusual stories in America. But I think most people on the DIS live in relatively comfortable middle/upper middle class bubbles where there's a certain remoteness to the stories of people in those positions, and in many cases a certain degree of moral judgment as well, that makes the risks to those groups less "real" than the risks to our elder loved ones.

I'm not for just throwing up our hands and letting the virus run its course. But I do think we need a more aggressive plan than just sheltering in place until a vaccine is ready. With widespread infection testing, immunity testing and targeted quarantines, we could keep more of our economy running through the crisis while still taking measures to limit the virus's spread and death toll. But we're not doing any of that, and I do understand how many in the most economically fragile groups feel like that's saving the lives of those most susceptible to the virus at the expense of those most susceptible to the economic disruption.

ETA: And you only have to look a few posts back to see how the concerns of the economically fragile are being minimized and disregarded. Not wanting to lose the job that you need to have health insurance, not wanting to lose the roof over one's head, worrying about how you're going to feed your kids... all these very real issues in a culture that has basically embraced social Darwinism when it comes to the poor are being dismissed as being about buying a kid an Xbox. Up next will be the responses that if they really wanted to have food, shelter and health care they should have saved enough money on their paycheck-to-paycheck wages to weather weeks or months without work and without even the ability to look for a new job.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I thought this was an interesting explanation for why we are doing our 30 day stay at home order:

Despite recent enactment of Public Health Orders (schools, bars and restaurants), lack of available metrics to monitor the effect of these measures and the potential dire consequences of delay led the public health community across metropolitan Kansas City and elected officials to conclude that further delay could lead to excess mortality. Early implementation of this strategy is even more important in the context of limited testing capacity, as is the case in Kansas City.

Their uncertainty in the situation is oddly comforting for this particular aspect. Instead of saying "we know if we close the schools, ban dine-in it will help" it's more of a "we just don't have time to be able to study if only those measures will work". The decision to close the school buildings (but allow for online) in my state was def. a controversial one more because of the timing. And they still don't know if the stay at home or shelter in place measures will help meaningfully enough (speaking nationally) because they are still too soon in the implementations of it it's just they feel in the absence of any other measure they could do this was seen as the next step.

Our stay at home orders for our metro (includes multiple but not all at this point counties across the two sides of the state line) and that of STL and a few surrounding counties come preemptively as they expect our numbers, not to double daily at this point, but to grow quickly. In other words we'll be hitting our peak at this point. The Director the Health Department of my state likened it to the Nike swoosh (kinda had to laugh at that connection but it does give a visual). The governor for my state did say at this time there is not a push for a state-wide stay at home order as 89 of the 105 counties in my state (at the time of the statement) have no cases but she is helping out guiding counties who may be looking to adopt the stay at home order.

*They are getting and have gotten more test kits but as always more is appreciated. One of our Senators for my state (KS) said: "We’ve had some success in doing that (meaning getting more test kits), getting them out of the federal stockpile and getting them sent to the Department of Health and Environment in Topeka". Other places are getting them from multiple sources including private businesses.

 

[EveDallas]

The death rates don't really start to climb until the medical system is overwhelmed. We're not there yet, but odds are we will be.

However, it is possible that the sheer size of our country will work in our favor, because we may be able to shift some resources around as local areas experience their peak at different times. Of course, that assumes we're mobilizing additional resources to places of particular need, and right now, there's not a lot of that being done.



I think that, to borrow a phrase that came up on another thread, the demographics of the DIS makes it hard for people to see this perspective, because people dying for lack of money or health care probably isn't a reality in most DISers lives. But it is the case for a lot of people in this country, so I can't really condemn them for their thinking. Tens of thousands of people die of preventable causes in this country for lack of health insurance every year, and anything that causes the levels of unemployment this is going to cause is going to increase those numbers dramatically. I already know one family who is likely to be facing eviction if this lasts into next month, and another who lost the health insurance that pays for her adult child's insulin. I know two recovering addicts who have lost access to their support systems (because AA & NA are shut down, along with most counseling facilities), one of whom has also lost access to his opioid-replacement medication and is facing physical withdrawal as well as the lack of emotional support, and two kids who are now shut at home with physically abusive parents. These aren't unusual stories in America. But I think most people on the DIS live in relatively comfortable middle/upper middle class bubbles where there's a certain remoteness to the stories of people in those positions, and in many cases a certain degree of moral judgment as well, that makes the risks to those groups less "real" than the risks to our elder loved ones.

I'm not for just throwing up our hands and letting the virus run its course. But I do think we need a more aggressive plan than just sheltering in place until a vaccine is ready. With widespread infection testing, immunity testing and targeted quarantines, we could keep more of our economy running through the crisis while still taking measures to limit the virus's spread and death toll. But we're not doing any of that, and I do understand how many in the most economically fragile groups feel like that's saving the lives of those most susceptible to the virus at the expense of those most susceptible to the economic disruption.

ETA: And you only have to look a few posts back to see how the concerns of the economically fragile are being minimized and disregarded. Not wanting to lose the job that you need to have health insurance, not wanting to lose the roof over one's head, worrying about how you're going to feed your kids... all these very real issues in a culture that has basically embraced social Darwinism when it comes to the poor are being dismissed as being about buying a kid an Xbox. Up next will be the responses that if they really wanted to have food, shelter and health care they should have saved enough money on their paycheck-to-paycheck wages to weather weeks or months without work and without even the ability to look for a new job.

If I could like this post one million times, I would. Every time I see a post that basically says don't worry about money, I wonder if the poster is even aware of how privileged they sound.

 

[SaintsManiac]

I haven't seen a single person say this. Not one. But the reality is - people are going to die. Either way. At some point, decisions are going to have to be made about


If I could like this post one million times, I would. Every time I see a post that basically says don't worry about money, I wonder if the poster is even aware of how privileged they sound.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/pub...n-to-work-says-grandparents-should-sacrifice/

 

[skyblue17]

I haven't seen a single person say this. Not one. But the reality is - people are going to die. Either way. At some point, decisions are going to have to be made about

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/pub...n-to-work-says-grandparents-should-sacrifice/
Let's all work on the "I personally haven't seen this, thus it surely can't be happening" mindset, eh?

 

[Hikergirl]

The restrictions may be lifted, but each State's Governor will make the decision for their state.
Start writing to them now.

 

[EveDallas]

I'm so glad the DIS has an ignore button. It's become so important for my mental health.

 

[SaintsManiac]

The death rates don't really start to climb until the medical system is overwhelmed. We're not there yet, but odds are we will be.

However, it is possible that the sheer size of our country will work in our favor, because we may be able to shift some resources around as local areas experience their peak at different times. Of course, that assumes we're mobilizing additional resources to places of particular need, and right now, there's not a lot of that being done.



I think that, to borrow a phrase that came up on another thread, the demographics of the DIS makes it hard for people to see this perspective, because people dying for lack of money or health care probably isn't a reality in most DISers lives. But it is the case for a lot of people in this country, so I can't really condemn them for their thinking. Tens of thousands of people die of preventable causes in this country for lack of health insurance every year, and anything that causes the levels of unemployment this is going to cause is going to increase those numbers dramatically. I already know one family who is likely to be facing eviction if this lasts into next month, and another who lost the health insurance that pays for her adult child's insulin. I know two recovering addicts who have lost access to their support systems (because AA & NA are shut down, along with most counseling facilities), one of whom has also lost access to his opioid-replacement medication and is facing physical withdrawal as well as the lack of emotional support, and two kids who are now shut at home with physically abusive parents. These aren't unusual stories in America. But I think most people on the DIS live in relatively comfortable middle/upper middle class bubbles where there's a certain remoteness to the stories of people in those positions, and in many cases a certain degree of moral judgment as well, that makes the risks to those groups less "real" than the risks to our elder loved ones.

I'm not for just throwing up our hands and letting the virus run its course. But I do think we need a more aggressive plan than just sheltering in place until a vaccine is ready. With widespread infection testing, immunity testing and targeted quarantines, we could keep more of our economy running through the crisis while still taking measures to limit the virus's spread and death toll. But we're not doing any of that, and I do understand how many in the most economically fragile groups feel like that's saving the lives of those most susceptible to the virus at the expense of those most susceptible to the economic disruption.

ETA: And you only have to look a few posts back to see how the concerns of the economically fragile are being minimized and disregarded. Not wanting to lose the job that you need to have health insurance, not wanting to lose the roof over one's head, worrying about how you're going to feed your kids... all these very real issues in a culture that has basically embraced social Darwinism when it comes to the poor are being dismissed as being about buying a kid an Xbox. Up next will be the responses that if they really wanted to have food, shelter and health care they should have saved enough money on their paycheck-to-paycheck wages to weather weeks or months without work and without even the ability to look for a new job.

We cannot bring back the economy if we are all dead.

 

[gwynne]

If I could like this post one million times, I would. Every time I see a post that basically says don't worry about money, I wonder if the poster is even aware of how privileged they sound.

Ummm, I don't see folks saying don't worry about money.

What I do see is a large number of folks understand what it will mean if we ignore the danger that nurses, doctors, respiratory therapists and other critical heath care workers are currently experiencing.
They are fighting everyday on the front lines.

Making it worse for them is a pathetic goal.

 

[SaintsManiac]

Ummm, I don't see folks saying don't worry about money.

What I do see is over and over a decent number of folks understand what it will mean if we ignore the danger that nurses, doctors, respiratory therapist and other critical heath care workers are currently experiencing.

Making it worse for them is a pathetic goal.

I didn't see it either, but maybe I am in the wrong thread like I was half of yesterday.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Do we not seek shelter in severe weather events?

Well, no, not always. People go to east coast beaches to watch hurricane effects...