Penalized For Being Prudent

[TraderSamWDW]

IMO, it boils down to this: those that banked their points have had three years to use them...they could have borrowed them (and didn't), used them in their original UY (and didn't) and so they banked them into the last possible year to use them. People who borrowed points have only had this one possible year to use them and now can't due to a pandemic. It makes sense to be able to allow those people to move those points back to their original UY so they can have the full life span of those points to use them.

I think you are right, but people who did borrow points CHOSE to do so, they could have left the points as is, or even waited and banked them. And had they canceled their reservation for their own reasons, they would not have been able to unbank them.

The big thing is that they are taken from the future. One is deciding not to use their points next year, but the room is still there, so undoing that decision is a lot different from undoing banking. Unless you have a Delorean and a Flux Capacitor.

ETA:
and 1.21 gigawatts

 

[DVCSunDevil]

Borrowed points have always been exactly like banked points. If you cancel, or DVC cancels a reservation made with borrowed points, those borrowed points need to be used before the end of the UY they were borrowed into, and cannot be banked into your next UY. Just like banked points.

It only turned out borrowed points have less risk in the current environment when DVC changed the rules for borrowed points and did not change them for banked points. No one could have seen that happening, so people who booked with borrowed points got lucky, they were not being more prudent.

Neither borrowing or banking points are more "prudent". The points are all the same value and are being used based on vacation plan. IMO, banking is the less "prudent" because you are delaying use of those points until the very end.

 

[DVCSunDevil]

I think you are right, but people who did borrow points CHOSE to do so, they could have left the points as is, or even waited and banked them. And had they canceled their reservation for their own reasons, they would not have been able to unbank them.

The big thing is that they are taken from the future. One is deciding not to use their points next year, but the room is still there, so undoing that decision is a lot different from undoing banking. Unless you have a Delorean and a Flux Capacitor.

ETA:
and 1.21 gigawatts

LOL! We just watched Back to the Future with my teenagers last week. A classic!

I took your point into consideration when I was originally posting that comment. It all comes down to time, though. People who banked have had a larger amount of time to use those points...and their original UY is in the past so those points can't be returned to it. Timing is really everything in this situation. There's a reason why there are UYs...it's to spread out the points so everyone isn't traveling at the same time (by giving the penalty of lost points based on the timing of cancellations, etc).

At the end of the day, this isn't over yet. I think DVC will have more announcements coming regarding decisions on points. Everyone just needs to be patient.

 

[Sandisw]

Probably way off topic, but I had not thought about Direct vs. Resale. If DVC does decide to do something related to expired points could they treat Direct purchasers different than Resale purchasers?
(That would be opening a can of worms)

No, not at all. The situation at hand is simply the matching supply and demand. Any decision made will be about the points.

That is why it’s hard, I think, to separate the emotion from the situation. It seems like decisions treat members differently, but it’s the points that are affected,

Their obligation is to make sure the system can handle the closing now and later in terms of rooms.

 

[Sandisw]

Following your logic, I disagree with the bold statement. Rooms are still there, but not their rooms. They traded their rooms for rooms in 2019. They're stuck with everyone else trying to use points before expiration in 2019. The 50 remaining rooms in 2020 are to be used by anyone...including people banking (late) from 2019, people unborrowing from 2019, both of which are against the rules, or people borrowing from 2021. How is it better to unborrow for 50 people vs letting 50 people bank late? I view these as being different paths to the same outcome.

What I keep getting hung up on is that DVCM could have just as easily given people with expiring points the ability to bank late into 2020 as they gave people the ability to unborrow into 2020. I don't think either should have been done at this time, but I don't think it's fair to pick one over the other. Since all points for a June UY should expire 5/31 (banked from 2018, normal 2019, and borrowed 2020), you could put the 200 names in a hat and pick 50, and that would be a more equitable way of doing it.

The rooms from borrowed points are still there booking because they haven’t been booked yet because it’s future inventory. Yes, the specific owner who borrowed freed up the room, but since this is about spreading out the points lost to try to minimize disruption, putting points back to where they came from takes strain out of the current inventor.

Other than that, I am not sure I can offer any more insight since we don’t agree about the premise of what is happening here.

You are looking at it as fair to owners, and I am looking at it as the way the system works, taking personal aspects out of it, and what the law and documents we as owners agreed to...and that is that DVCM is the one in charge of making sure the system works.

 

[Sandisw]

I think you are right, but people who did borrow points CHOSE to do so, they could have left the points as is, or even waited and banked them. And had they canceled their reservation for their own reasons, they would not have been able to unbank them.

The big thing is that they are taken from the future. One is deciding not to use their points next year, but the room is still there, so undoing that decision is a lot different from undoing banking. Unless you have a Delorean and a Flux Capacitor.

ETA:
and 1.21 gigawatts

Exactly. It is not about members choices and what they did or did not do, it’s not about not having the use of points for as long.

Members did make choices. But, since we now have 20% of the inventory in one UY gone, it has to be addressed,

Lets say they had not waived any rules, other than holding, you have 4 types of points competing for the current rooms, assuming June 1st opening

Banked points that expire in March and May would come out of the mix because resort closed..,owners lose.

Points beyond their banking window expire...owners lose.

Borrowed points for April and May UY expire...owners lose

Borrowed points for Aug UY and beyond....owners win because they have time to reuse the points, even when not returned,

Current UY points not beyond banking window..owners win because they can rebook or bank.

Now, instead of keeping everything in line...we allow borrowed points to go back. What does that do? It frees up rooms in current UY that. might allow us to help with expiring points who automatically lose with no changes,

So, do nothing, and those upset about banked points still lose Points. Change borrowing rules and then try to come up with a plan to help those with expiring points by extending them in some way because we kicked out some borrowed points,

I guess I just don’t see how it would be better for those with expiring points for them to have held firm on all rules.

With that, there is nothing more I can contribute!

 

[dismedvc]

I guess I just don’t see how it would be better for those with expiring points for them to have held firm on all rules.

What you stated is true for borrowed points that would have expired after DVC reopens.

However, for borrowed points that would have expired before DVC reopens, it would have been better for those with expiring points (and almost all other members) for them to have held firm on all rules. If those borrowed points had expired instead of being returned, they would not be competing for the rooms once DVC reopens.

If DVC is closed for 3 months, we will have 12 months of points competing for 9 months of availability. Not having those returned borrowed points, that would have expired, in the mix would be better for almost all members, not just the members who had points expire.
(The only members it would not be better for, are the members who would have had their borrowed points expire if DVC had not changed the rules)

 

[Sandisw]

What you stated is true for borrowed points that expire after DVC reopens.

However, for borrowed points that would have expired before DVC reopens, it would have been better for those with expiring points (and almost all other members) for them to have held firm on all rules. If those borrowed points had expired instead of being returned, they would not be competing for the rooms once DVC reopens.

If DVC is closed for 3 months, we will have 12 months of points competing for 9 months of availability. Not having those returned borrowed points, that would have expired, in the mix would be better for almost all members, not just the members who had points expire.
(The only members it would not be better for, are the members who would have had their borrowed points expire if DVC had not changed the rules)

Holding firm to rules would do nothing for the people with expired points, other than to make them feel less angry because people with borrowed points would also be at risk of losing points.

 

[dismedvc]

Holding firm to rules would do nothing for the people with expired points, other than to make them feel less angry because people with borrowed points would also be at risk of losing points.

It would not do anything for the expired points, but it would help people with expired points (and all other members) be able to use points from their next UY since they would be competing against a smaller number of points if DVC had not changed the rules and the borrowed points that have been returned would have expired before DVC reopened.

I apologize for repeating myself for those who have read the entire thread.

If the resorts open fairly soon, not having the previously borrowed points having to be used before they expire will help the situation going forward by reducing short term demand, since those returned borrowed points would no longer be in a use them or lose them status.

However, if the resorts remain closed past the date where those previously borrowed points would have expired, returning them will HURT the situation going forward.

 

[Sandisw]

It would not do anything for the expired points, but it would help people with expired points (and all other members) be able to use points from their next UY since they would be competing against a smaller number of points.

Okay, so you would have rather had them not change rules at all, let the points be lost, and then make adjustments going forward.

That I can agree with, That was my stance at first as well, but then when they said they were trying to work out a plan for those with expiring points, I saw the move for borrowed points in that light, and changed my mind that it is actually better for the system and owners who stood to lose anyway.

 

[dismedvc]

Okay, so you would have rather had them not change rules at all, let the points be lost, and then make adjustments going forward.

Exactly. Again at the risk of repeating myself, that has been my stance all along.

The main issue I have is, if the closures last a long time (say 6 months or more) then making an exception to the rules and returning borrowed points back to their original future UY, DVC has caused a larger problem in the future. Given the current DVC attitude is to wait and see how long the closures last before making any more changes to the rules, it seems they really "jumped the gun" with their change to the borrowing rules.

I like your concept of "freezing" expired points and letting members know DVC will deal with ALL of those expired points from whatever source, once they have more information. Ideally DVC would let members know the expired points would not be completely lost, although they may be worth only some fraction, (to be determined later) of their original value.

 

[dismedvc]

Thanks again for all who replied to this thread while I was trying to figure out what to do.
At this point I have cancelled my June reservation, and banked the 110 current August UY points.
For the 128 banked points used to make that now cancelled reservation, those will expire on July 31st. I have decided not to deposit them into RCI, if DVC does not make a decision on what, if anything, they are going to do about expired or expiring points before June 15th (my deadline for depositing into RCI without restrictions on the use of those point in RCI).
I will just let those 128 banked points expire and see if DVC does anything in the future.
See you all again, whenever DVC makes a decision.

 

[Sandisw]

Thanks again for all who replied to this thread while I was trying to figure out what to do.
At this point I have cancelled my June reservation, and banked the 100 current August UY points.
For the 128 banked points used to make that now cancelled reservation, those will expire on July 31st. I have decided not to deposit them into RCI, if DVC does not make a decision on what, if anything, they are going to do about expired or expiring points before June 15th (my deadline for depositing into RCI without restrictions on the use of those point in RCI).
I will just let those 128 banked points expire and see if DVC does anything in the future.
See you all again, whenever DVC makes a decision.

If they don’t, and the resorts are open you may be able to find a last minute renter.l.assuming rooms...to at help with the MFs.

 

[imjustafatkid]

Not to sound argumentive, but no one is throwing banked points away.

If my banked points go away through no fault of my own, then they are being thrown away. In my case, I even have a reservation booked with banked points for the first week of May that may have to be changed (again, through no fault of my own) and I would then lose the points used for that reservation.

 

[Deano45m]

This is my biggest beef with the whole situation. Rules are in place for a reason and now they're changing them for borrowing but not banking.

Say I have 100 June UY points expiring 5/31. Someone else borrowed 100 June UY points to use for a May 2020 vacation. Does it really matter if my 100 points are allowed to be banked to 2020 vs the original 2020 points being allowed to be put back in 2020? Both will put 100 points back into the 2020 UY. The only difference I can see is that the points going back to the original UY could potentially be banked into 2021, which could spread things out a bit more.

I don't have an issue with allowing the unborrowing of points. I have an issue with changing the borrowing rules and not the banking rules. If the rules were being enforced as they're currently written and both groups were treated the same, I wouldn't be as upset. They could have easily "frozen" all points that expired during the closure, regardless if they were banked, normal UY, or borrowed and then determine how to deal with them once they have more information. I just can't see how only allowing unborrowing at this point can be seen as a fair approach.

I hope we have not seen the end of how they really are going to handle this moving forward. They need to let the closer play out before they can even offer a proper solution. Also for those of you not affected by the situation have sympathy for those that are. It doesn’t matter if you booked late in your UY or not. We were all planning on going and NO one could have seen this happening. They opened the can of worms bending some rules now they will suffer from those they have screwed over. Offering normal visitors a deal to return but nothing for DVC Members except we’ll sorry and thanks for paying your annual dues for a trip you lost.

 

[Sandisw]

If my banked points go away through no fault of my own, then they are being thrown away. In my case, I even have a reservation booked with banked points for the first week of May that may have to be changed (again, through no fault of my own) and I would then lose the points used for that reservation.

My point was that DVCM is not taking points away from anyone. They are all being returned to your account,

We can agree to disagree about the issues regarding the use of those points and the system.

 

[Sandisw]

I hope we have not seen the end of how they really are going to handle this moving forward. They need to let the closer play out before they can even offer a proper solution. Also for those of you not affected by the situation have sympathy for those that are. It doesn’t matter if you booked late in your UY or not. We were all planning on going and NO one could have seen this happening. They opened the can of worms bending some rules now they will suffer from those they have screwed over. Offering normal visitors a deal to return but nothing for DVC Members except we’ll sorry and thanks for paying your annual dues for a trip you lost.

I just want to add that the deal that was offered to cash guests was offered as a special to DVC members. You can book it as a cash guest,

Also, that deal is not meant to be compensation for the loss. It is the same deal that is offered to the general public all the time, It was just a different special offered to guest who had other specials...many have reported it would cost them more. The cash guests are losing out the special they had..Disney is not letting them carry that over to new bookings

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

My point was that DVCM is not taking points away from anyone. They are all being returned to your account,

We can agree to disagree about the issues regarding the use of those points and the system.

I think it's a bit more muddled.

We agree to pay dues on the points we purchase and the agreement back is that we can book a room. DVC took away the rooms that were booked all per the requirement we agree to follow in the POS. We all acknowledge of course that a pandemic is something outside of DVC's control however in a way they have breached their contract with us. We pay - we get to reserve a room based on availability at the time of booking. Then - no room like DVC has agreed per the POS to provide. We don't have an agreement to just have points - we have an agreement to be able to book a room as long as we have paid.

Yes, DVC has what I call the bit at the end of the contract - "never mind what you just spent a couple of hours reading - we can change it at will" but then what you are holding up as them following the legal requirements actually isn't correct either because any of the banking and borrowing and holding point provisions are under their control to modify or change too. They can make this right. They do need more information to do that well. And making it right might or probably will cost them some of the profits they make off of us if they choose to do that.

 

[Sandisw]

I think it's a bit more muddled.

We agree to pay dues on the points we purchase and the agreement back is that we can book a room. DVC took away the rooms that were booked all per the requirement we agree to follow in the POS. We all acknowledge of course that a pandemic is something outside of DVC's control however in a way they have breached their contract with us. We pay - we get to reserve a room based on availability at the time of booking. Then - no room like DVC has agreed per the POS to provide. We don't have an agreement to just have points - we have an agreement to be able to book a room as long as we have paid.

Yes, DVC has what I call the bit at the end of the contract - "never mind what you just spent a couple of hours reading - we can change it at will" but then what you are holding up as them following the legal requirements actually isn't correct either because any of the banking and borrowing and holding point provisions are under their control to modify or change too. They can make this right. They do need more information to do that well. And making it right might or probably will cost them some of the profits they make off of us if they choose to do that.

Yes, I have said it’s all with in their control. That was my point. They have a lot of it an we agreed to letting them be in charge.

I am just one that doesn’t believe they have to fix it, They don’t. If they decide people losing points is best for the system going forward, then it is within their right to do that.

The legally closed, they have the Florida Timeshare Laws to fall back on to support what they do, and they have the ability to amend home resort rules and regulations,

So, we all agreed to that and for me, I have to live with it’s consequences. Like I said I have taken control to
prevent traveling late in my UY by owning 3 of them.

Doesn't make me better, but because of it, I am just not upset about the decisions that have to be made because I gave that control up when I bought, and put the decisions of making sure the system functions in their hands, If I had lost the 108 borrowed points because they weren’t put back, I would have accepted it because I knew it was a risk when i did it.

I feel bad for any owner who is losing, but I also don’t agree with the stance that Disney has to bail us out, I realize I may be in the minority,

ETA. I think the only legal requirement I said was that it requires them to have a system to balance supply and demand.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

So I just read that AP holders will now have the option of a partial refund on their AP (details to come).

Outlining what Disney is doing for their guests impacted by their closure:

- people with rooms booked - fully refunded (and given the option of a special discount to rebook at a certain time)
- people with packages - fully refunded
- people with tickets - tickets have been made "anytime" and if not used prior to Dec 2020 they get full credit on that ticket towards the purchase of a new one.
- special event tickets - fully refunded
-AP's - either extended for the length of park closure or partial refund for dates of closure.
(one more I forgot) - Run Disney Star wars race - refunded.

That leaves DVC owners. Points do not go into holding and borrowed points returned. Banked points or current points past banking deadline? Tough luck.

To point out - all those other things are sold as non-refundable after a certain point too. Or non-refundable from the time of sale.