Penalized For Being Prudent

tjm236

Earning My Ears
Joined
Feb 14, 2017
Borrowed points have always been exactly like banked points. If you cancel, or DVC cancels a reservation made with borrowed points, those borrowed points need to be used before the end of the UY they were borrowed into, and cannot be banked into your next UY. Just like banked points.

It only turned out borrowed points have less risk in the current environment when DVC changed the rules for borrowed points and did not change them for banked points. No one could have seen that happening, so people who booked with borrowed points got lucky, they were not being more prudent.
This is my biggest beef with the whole situation. Rules are in place for a reason and now they're changing them for borrowing but not banking.

Say I have 100 June UY points expiring 5/31. Someone else borrowed 100 June UY points to use for a May 2020 vacation. Does it really matter if my 100 points are allowed to be banked to 2020 vs the original 2020 points being allowed to be put back in 2020? Both will put 100 points back into the 2020 UY. The only difference I can see is that the points going back to the original UY could potentially be banked into 2021, which could spread things out a bit more.

I don't have an issue with allowing the unborrowing of points. I have an issue with changing the borrowing rules and not the banking rules. If the rules were being enforced as they're currently written and both groups were treated the same, I wouldn't be as upset. They could have easily "frozen" all points that expired during the closure, regardless if they were banked, normal UY, or borrowed and then determine how to deal with them once they have more information. I just can't see how only allowing unborrowing at this point can be seen as a fair approach.
 

Sandisw

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Where does it address this? I'm not saying it doesn't, I just haven't been able to locate it. Although I'll admit that I didn't read every single word of the 100+ pages.
Benefit of the stay at home...I actually read my POS! I found it in my RIV contract as section 9.15 Emergency Powers.

In addition, DVCM has a Property Management agreement with Disney that gives them control of operations. To get specific terms of that agreement, a member has to request.

But, I did email DVC management about this and they confirmed that both of these elements support the legal authority to close.

It does say the special powers of 9.15 needs to be limited the time reasonably necessary to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the association, and the Owners, and Owners leases, guests,. Etc.....and any such person who may be lawfully entitled to come on the property...”

So they certainly can’t close for whatever reason they want, but can in times when a state of emergency is in place.
 

Sandisw

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
This is my biggest beef with the whole situation. Rules are in place for a reason and now they're changing them for borrowing but not banking.

Say I have 100 June UY points expiring 5/31. Someone else borrowed 100 June UY points to use for a May 2020 vacation. Does it really matter if my 100 points are allowed to be banked to 2020 vs the original 2020 points being allowed to be put back in 2020? Both will put 100 points back into the 2020 UY. The only difference I can see is that the points going back to the original UY could potentially be banked into 2021, which could spread things out a bit more.

I don't have an issue with allowing the unborrowing of points. I have an issue with changing the borrowing rules and not the banking rules. If the rules were being enforced as they're currently written and both groups were treated the same, I wouldn't be as upset. They could have easily "frozen" all points that expired during the closure, regardless if they were banked, normal UY, or borrowed and then determine how to deal with them once they have more information. I just can't see how only allowing unborrowing at this point can be seen as a fair approach.
I do get why people are upset, because it does feel like they made a decision to help certain owners over others.

Maybe this will help. Let’s say there are 100 rooms to reserve every year, easy number to use,

So, in 2018, 50 people decide not to book their room and move their use to 2019. This leaves 100 rooms for the 50 people who didn’t move forward. But, once the year is over, they are gone, even if they stayed empty.

Now its 2019, in addition to the 150 from 2018 and 2019 , 50 people from 2020 decide to reserve a room a head of time..leaving 100 rooms available in 2020 for the 50 people still there. This now puts 200 people competing for 100 rooms In 2019.

Now, a resort closure happens and all of a sudden there are only 75 rooms for 200 people to compete for rooms. This is outside the normal level of demand,

So, we have to get rid of some people, Who do we move to help some of those 200 people out? Well, if we tell the 50 people who wanted to travel early they can’t, they have to go back to their own 2020 UY Because their rooms are still there.

Now we are back to where we were before they came, 150 people competing for 75 rooms..it’s a step in the right direction.

This is the what is happening now and why its no possible to treat each set of points the same way, because points go with rooms, and you can’t move points forward unless they have rooms to go with them..and the only points that do are borrowed ones
 
  • dismedvc

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Oct 10, 2008
    This is my biggest beef with the whole situation. Rules are in place for a reason and now they're changing them for borrowing but not banking.

    I don't have an issue with allowing the unborrowing of points. I have an issue with changing the borrowing rules and not the banking rules. If the rules were being enforced as they're currently written and both groups were treated the same, I wouldn't be as upset. They could have easily "frozen" all points that expired during the closure, regardless if they were banked, normal UY, or borrowed and then determine how to deal with them once they have more information. I just can't see how only allowing unborrowing at this point can be seen as a fair approach.
    I like your concept of "freezing" expired points and letting members know DVC will deal with ALL of those expired points from whatever source, once they have more information. Ideally DVC would let members know the expired points would not be completely lost, although they may be worth only some fraction, (to be determined later) of their original value.

    I am considering depositing into RCI expiring points I would otherwise lose. However, if I do that, and DVC later decides to do anything about expired points I would not be eligible for whatever DVC decided, since I had deposited my points into RCI.

    While I realize DVC can not tell us today exactly what they will do, if they indicated they will do something once they have more information, almost anything they decided to do would be preferable to me compared to depositing points into RCI. Even if they decide expired points had only 50% or even 25% of their original value, I would prefer that over RCI. However, as it stand now if I do not deposit into RCI I could lose all of the value of my expired points, so if that happened, they would be worth 0% of their original value.
     
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    dismedvc

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Oct 10, 2008
    So, in 2018, 50 people decide not to book their room and move their use to 2019. This leaves 100 rooms for the 50 people who didn’t move forward. But, once the year is over, they are gone, even if they stayed empty.
    However, I would think when DVC rooms are not used by DVC members in any given year, they are very often sold by DVC for cash at a very high price. I think you would need to factor that into your analysis
     

    Sandisw

    Moderator
    Moderator
    Joined
    Nov 15, 2008
    However, I would think when DVC rooms are not used by DVC members in any given year, they are very often sold by DVC for cash at a very high price. I think you would need to factor that into your analysis
    Of course, it is possibly those empty 2018 rooms may have been rented for cash and that money was put back into the DVC budget as breakage,

    Thar doesn’t do anything to change the # of rooms available in 2019, when a resort closure took some out, or put extra rooms into 2020 which is future inventory.
     

    dismedvc

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Oct 10, 2008
    Of course, it is possibly those empty 2018 rooms may have been rented for cash and that money was put back into the DVC budget as breakage,

    Thar doesn’t do anything to change the # of rooms available in 2019, when a resort closure took some out, or put extra rooms into 2020 which is future inventory.
    Doesn't the breakage income lower the dues for all members? If so, all members benefited from the members who banked. The members who banked usually get the benefit they provide to all members back when they book a room the following year. If they can not book a room the following year it seems they should get some compensation for the benefit they provided to all the other members the previous year. Although that is a totally different issue.
     

    Sandisw

    Moderator
    Moderator
    Joined
    Nov 15, 2008
    Doesn't the breakage income lower the dues for all members? If so, all members benefited from the members who banked. The members who banked usually get the benefit they provide to all members back when they book a room the following year. If they can not book a room the following year it seems they should get some compensation for the benefit they provided to all the other members the previous year. Although that is a totally different issue.
    Yes, breakage is built into the budget. But, as you say, that is another topic. Point here was whether allowing banked points to be banked again, helps or hurts the situation at hand which is the shortage of rooms. And, the answer is it hurts.

    That is not to say DVCM, due to the extreme circumstance, isn’t going to find a way to help owners whose banked points will expire during the closure.
    They may have information when this Is over to find a way to still do it and not overburden.

    We just have to wait and see. None of us can predict it. I was just trying to help others see how the two types of points are different and why I think it makes sense for DVCM to have made the decision quickly for one type of point and need time to figure out the other
     
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    dismedvc

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Oct 10, 2008
    We had a reservation with our daughter's family including our 2 year old grandson's first trip to Disney, starting September 1st 2019 using banked points. Our Daughter was 6 months pregnant in September. When we canceled because of the Hurricane we rebooked for June 8th 2020, which would be 6 months after our second grandchild was born. I had never before used Bank points that late in our August use year, and then this epidemic happened.
    However, in the big picture, now having two healthy grandsons is far more important than losing DVC points.
    Thanks everyone, especially @Sandisw for putting up with my thinking out loud. We decided to cancel our June 8th trip and bank 110 points from our August UY. We still have 128 points (100 from BLT and 28 from BWV) that were banked, so they are now in a use them by July 31st or lose them status.

    Even if Disney is open, we do not think it would be safe to expose a 32 month old and a 6 month old to the crowds given the virus will almost certainly not be totally gone at that time.
     

    gharter

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    May 3, 2004
    Agree, June UY here chiming in. Feeling like we made a huge mistake with hard earned money sucks. And yes I understand this is horrible for the whole world healthwise, job wise etc.
    Same deal. Unless we put the points in to RCI , we wil lose the remainder of our June UY points (unless you can book before May 31 - not likely).
    Its not Disneys fault this happened, its not our fault. It just sucks to lose out. We'll probably put those points into RCi and see what we can do.
     

    Sandisw

    Moderator
    Moderator
    Joined
    Nov 15, 2008
    Thanks everyone, especially @Sandisw for putting up with my thinking out loud. We decided to cancel our June 8th trip and bank 110 points from our August UY. We still have 128 points (100 from BLT and 28 from BWV) that were banked, so they are now in a use them by July 31st or lose them status.

    Even if Disney is open, we do not think it would be safe to expose a 32 month old and a 6 month old to the crowds given the virus will almost certainly not be totally gone at that time.
    Thanks for letting me think right along with you. I’m sure you made the right choice for you!

    I am holding out my June trip is a go!
     

    dismedvc

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Oct 10, 2008
    Same deal. Unless we put the points in to RCI , we wil lose the remainder of our June UY points (unless you can book before May 31 - not likely).
    Its not Disneys fault this happened, its not our fault. It just sucks to lose out. We'll probably put those points into RCi and see what we can do.
    I posted this on another thread, although I have slightly edited it below. Sorry for repeating it here for those who read the other thread.
    My concern about depositing into RCI is that while that is currently the only choice for points that would expire, if DVC decides to do anything in the future to reinstate, partially reinstate, or in some other way compensate members whose points expired, the members who deposited into RCI would not be eligible.
    Personally, if DVC decided expired points could be used at 50% or even 25% of their initial value for some period of time in the future, that would be preferable to me vs. depositing those points into RCI. However, if DVC decides to do nothing related to expired points, depositing points that were going to expire into RCI would be better than getting nothing for those points. The problem is we will not know what, if anything, DVC will decide to do about expiring points until after it is too late to deposit them into RCI.
     
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    Sandisw

    Moderator
    Moderator
    Joined
    Nov 15, 2008
    Here is an idea. Maybe DVCM can find a way to extend then life of banked points for the amount of time of closure when the points would have been usablesimilar to the AP.

    So, points expiring March 31sr, would be extended for use 11 days..the time left when the resort closed

    Points expiring May 31st would be extended about 10 weeks, assuming a June 1sr opening

    The clock would start once they announce an opening date.

    Or, allow then to be used this summer by Sept 1st. April, June and August.since that is Lower demand time.
     
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    tjm236

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    Feb 14, 2017
    Benefit of the stay at home...I actually read my POS! I found it in my RIV contract as section 9.15 Emergency Powers.

    In addition, DVCM has a Property Management agreement with Disney that gives them control of operations. To get specific terms of that agreement, a member has to request.

    But, I did email DVC management about this and they confirmed that both of these elements support the legal authority to close.

    It does say the special powers of 9.15 needs to be limited the time reasonably necessary to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the association, and the Owners, and Owners leases, guests,. Etc.....and any such person who may be lawfully entitled to come on the property...”

    So they certainly can’t close for whatever reason they want, but can in times when a state of emergency is in place.
    Do you know if this is something new in the RIV contract? I was reading the BWV POS since that's what I could find and didn't see anything. That doesn't mean it's not there or it wasn't amended (not sure what type of amendments they can make).
     

    Sandisw

    Moderator
    Moderator
    Joined
    Nov 15, 2008
    Do you know if this is something new in the RIV contract? I was reading the BWV POS since that's what I could find and didn't see anything. That doesn't mean it's not there or it wasn't amended (not sure what type of amendments they can make).
    I don’t have my other resorts because I bought them resale. I am gong to venture to guess its in all. I’ll see if I can find more specific information as to section.thst might help
     

    dismedvc

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Oct 10, 2008
    Probably way off topic, but I had not thought about Direct vs. Resale. If DVC does decide to do something related to expired points could they treat Direct purchasers different than Resale purchasers?
    (That would be opening a can of worms)
     
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    tjm236

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    Feb 14, 2017
    I do get why people are upset, because it does feel like they made a decision to help certain owners over others.

    Maybe this will help. Let’s say there are 100 rooms to reserve every year, easy number to use,

    So, in 2018, 50 people decide not to book their room and move their use to 2019. This leaves 100 rooms for the 50 people who didn’t move forward. But, once the year is over, they are gone, even if they stayed empty.

    Now its 2019, in addition to the 150 from 2018 and 2019 , 50 people from 2020 decide to reserve a room a head of time..leaving 100 rooms available in 2020 for the 50 people still there. This now puts 200 people competing for 100 rooms In 2019.

    Now, a resort closure happens and all of a sudden there are only 75 rooms for 200 people to compete for rooms. This is outside the normal level of demand,

    So, we have to get rid of some people, Who do we move to help some of those 200 people out? Well, if we tell the 50 people who wanted to travel early they can’t, they have to go back to their own 2020 UY Because their rooms are still there.

    Now we are back to where we were before they came, 150 people competing for 75 rooms..it’s a step in the right direction.

    This is the what is happening now and why its no possible to treat each set of points the same way, because points go with rooms, and you can’t move points forward unless they have rooms to go with them..and the only points that do are borrowed ones
    Following your logic, I disagree with the bold statement. Rooms are still there, but not their rooms. They traded their rooms for rooms in 2019. They're stuck with everyone else trying to use points before expiration in 2019. The 50 remaining rooms in 2020 are to be used by anyone...including people banking (late) from 2019, people unborrowing from 2019, both of which are against the rules, or people borrowing from 2021. How is it better to unborrow for 50 people vs letting 50 people bank late? I view these as being different paths to the same outcome.

    What I keep getting hung up on is that DVCM could have just as easily given people with expiring points the ability to bank late into 2020 as they gave people the ability to unborrow into 2020. I don't think either should have been done at this time, but I don't think it's fair to pick one over the other. Since all points for a June UY should expire 5/31 (banked from 2018, normal 2019, and borrowed 2020), you could put the 200 names in a hat and pick 50, and that would be a more equitable way of doing it.
     

    DVCSunDevil

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Mar 1, 2020
    I know this is not a perfect analogy, however, bear with me.
    If you wanted to take a vacation that would take two years of your earnings, there are two ways you could fund it.
    • Save last years earnings and deposit those earnings in a bank. Then this year withdraw those banked earnings and combine those with this year’s earnings and pay for your vacation without going into debt.
    • Use this year’s earnings and take out a loan against next year’s earnings to pay for your vacation.
    While there is nothing wrong with option 2, I think most would agree option 1 is more financially prudent. If the vacation is cancelled by the provider for any reason, you would probably get your money back in either case, but those who used option 2 would still have the loan.

    However, in the case of DVC those of use who prudently chose option 1 will likely lose last year's earnings (points) that we banked, while those that chose the less prudent option 2 will have their loan (borrowing) forgiven.
    That does not seem right.

    Again, I know this is somewhat of an apple to oranges comparison, so please do not reply just to tell me that. However, I would like to hear what other member think of this post.
    I know you clarified that you know your example is apples to oranges, and you are correct. IMO, you can't compare your example to DVC because taking a loan in real life would carry charges beyond just the principle, like interest. So in real life, yes, saving is more prudent than borrowing. But with DVC, there are not added "fees". The points for last year, current UY and next UY are all weighted the same. It's a matter of timing. When you bank points and the next UY arrives, the original UY for those banked points is gone...there is no returning to it. The choice was made to not use those points during their original UY and "kick the can down the road", so to speak. The inventory assigned to those points is gone. Borrowing points is different in the fact that the original UY is still in the future. The inventory assigned to those points is still there. DVC allows banking and borrowing to make the program more attractive. I know we probably wouldn't have purchased if the points had to be used every year. But banking is different than borrowing. When you bank you are delaying using those points until their absolute endpoint, in terms of time.

    IMO, it boils down to this: those that banked their points have had three years to use them...they could have borrowed them (and didn't), used them in their original UY (and didn't) and so they banked them into the last possible year to use them. People who borrowed points have only had this one possible year to use them and now can't due to a pandemic. It makes sense to be able to allow those people to move those points back to their original UY so they can have the full life span of those points to use them.
     

    DVCSunDevil

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Mar 1, 2020
    Why are so many apparently missing this? My Easter reservation was made with current UY points. Those points are not even technically a year old yet! We're not complaining because we want to bank already banked points. We're complaining that we can't get the full 3 years' usage out of the points we have and not being allowed to bank them through no fault of our own and their value being taken away at 2 years (borrow previous year and use current year and exclude banking 3rd year).
    Look, I understand you are very emotional about your situation. But we are replying to the OP who was discussing the differences between banking and borrowing and how DVC is handling the two. The question wasn't about current UY points. Not sure why you are jumping in and using bold and exclamation points as if you were the OP and people are missing your point.
     

    DVCSunDevil

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Mar 1, 2020
    When we bought in, our CM told us to pick a UY that was close to (slightly before) when we usually visit so that if our plans changed, we’d have many months to book other dates.
    I’d like to take this opportunity to thank that CM.
    Spot on. We tried for a UY that was just before when we normally travel, but we had to settle for one that was a little bit earlier. Just for this reason. You don't like to think that your plans might change, but when they do you don't want to be past the banking window.
     

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