Resale Resorts Riv eligibility

[Sandisw]

It is definitely depressing sales because we would have purchased from 300-400 points without the restrictions. So RIV sales are depressed by a minimum of 300-400 points. Lol. As soon as they remove the restrictions, we will buy. If there is one thing I have learned, the older I get, I realize I am not unique. I am sure there are thousands of mes out there who would have added on at RIV but didn’t because of the restrictions. The problem with the restrictions is that if some calamity happens, like one of us dies and the remaining spouse wants to sell, there is a big loss. That’s not the case with resale.

But don’t you think Disney knew it would turn of some buyers?

Of course they did! But they did it anyway which is why I have a hard time believing that expectations were not different and they were thinking long term and not short term.

 

[Liquidice]

The big difference is that Disney did not predict was a global pandemic that shut down cruises, the parks, etc.

I don't think they were discouraged by people being turned off - if you look at the sales numbers pre-pandemic, they were just fine. The pandemic is the big unknown here - Disney may have previously been able to afford to play the long game and wait, but with revenue hurting, I don't think they can play as long of a game.

So if the sales don't rebound, I think they may end up re-considering the resale restrictions as a promotion to help make more direct sales. Or if they really want to stick to the resale restrictions, they could turn up the promotions and reduce the price of Riviera.

The documents for Riviera say they can turn it off or turn it back on anytime they want though - so even if they turn it off, they could turn them back on in the future.

I do agree with @chicagodisneyguy in that if sales don't improve - Disney could decide to replace leadership at DVC which could bring changes.

If you look at other businesses, they're having to roll back some pretty anti-consumer rules like airline flight change fees to try to get people to buy flights. So it wouldn't surprise me to see Disney doing more pro-consumer things to attract people.

 

[Duckbug.Ducktales]

The big difference is that Disney did not predict was a global pandemic that shut down cruises, the parks, etc.

This is the only convincing argument. I think Disney knew that the restrictions would turn off some buyers and they were fine with that because this was (probably) part of their plan to remake DVC. They play the long game--perhaps the assumption was that later on, as the older properties expire and as new resorts with restrictions come up, the resale market won't be as competitive. But in some way they decided that this was the best financial sense for the long term.

But then the pandemic. That's got to have some execs scratching their heads thinking they should reverse course, no? Doesn't mean they'll do it, but I never thought it was likely before... now I think there's a 5% chance

 

[havoc315]

Assuming Riviera sales are "slow," I don't think you can just blame the restrictions or the pandemic.
It may be something much simpler:
1 -- Sales saturation. There simply isn't enough demand to keep adding new property after new property.
2 -- The Riviera itself is a bit less desirable than the other recent properties over the last 10 years, probably due to the lack of a deluxe sister resort and lack of true deluxe location. Deluxe sister resorts benefit from already having name recognition and good will. Buying a piece of the Grand Floridian or a piece of the Polynesian may have more intrinsic demand than "buy a new tower built alongside the Caribbean Beach Resort."

Resale restrictions have discouraged some knowledgeable buyers, the types of people on this board. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't think they really affect the majority of buyers. It's not like Disney is loudly warning prospective buyers about this difference. And most buyers are really thinking about the re-sale value. While the stats may show most people ultimately re-sell, I think most buyers buy with the anticipation of keeping it long term.

So my own conclusion:
Sales were a bit slow before the pandemic as Disney may be starting to overbuild DVC, hitting market saturation, and they built a resort with less name recognition, less desirable location, than most of their other recent resorts. Meanwhile, the resale restrictions hurt them a bit with some more knowledgeable buyers. And the pandemic obviously crushed the already slow sales.

 

[Duckbug.Ducktales]

Assuming Riviera sales are "slow," I don't think you can just blame the restrictions or the pandemic.
It may be something much simpler:
1 -- Sales saturation. There simply isn't enough demand to keep adding new property after new property.
2 -- The Riviera itself is a bit less desirable than the other recent properties over the last 10 years, probably due to the lack of a deluxe sister resort and lack of true deluxe location. Deluxe sister resorts benefit from already having name recognition and good will. Buying a piece of the Grand Floridian or a piece of the Polynesian may have more intrinsic demand than "buy a new tower built alongside the Caribbean Beach Resort."

Resale restrictions have discouraged some knowledgeable buyers, the types of people on this board. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't think they really affect the majority of buyers. It's not like Disney is loudly warning prospective buyers about this difference. And most buyers are really thinking about the re-sale value. While the stats may show most people ultimately re-sell, I think most buyers buy with the anticipation of keeping it long term.

So my own conclusion:
Sales were a bit slow before the pandemic as Disney may be starting to overbuild DVC, hitting market saturation, and they built a resort with less name recognition, less desirable location, than most of their other recent resorts. Meanwhile, the resale restrictions hurt them a bit with some more knowledgeable buyers. And the pandemic obviously crushed the already slow sales.

I think RVA sales were not slow before the pandemic, so I think that's the biggest impact.

 

[havoc315]

I think RVA sales were not slow before the pandemic, so I think that's the biggest impact.

Multiple reports suggest sales were slow even before the pandemic..

https://dvcnews.com/index.php/dvc-p...-dvc-sales-slow-as-riviera-opening-approaches
https://*******.com/forum/threads/riviera-sales-up-but-overall-numbers-slump-in-november-2019.17235/
https://dvcfan.com/2020/03/09/dvc-show-how-are-riviera-sales-going/

 

[Liquidice]

Multiple reports suggest sales were slow even before the pandemic..

https://dvcnews.com/index.php/dvc-p...-dvc-sales-slow-as-riviera-opening-approaches
https://dvcfan.com/2020/03/09/dvc-show-how-are-riviera-sales-going/

You have to remember RVA didn't open until 12/16/19, some people may have purchased before the opening - but I don't know if typically resorts sell a lot before they open? The numbers didn't look too bad in 2019 though...

But after RVA opened - the numbers seemed good though.

https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/fin...propels-dvc-to-best-december-sales-in-8-years
https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/financial/news-34867/4695-direct-sales-strong-in-january-2020 ... "In the weeks following its grand opening, Disney's Riviera Resort posted its best-ever sales numbers in January 2020."

Even in March 2020 leading up to WDW's closure - "Disney's Riviera Resort was poised to deliver its best single-month sales since being added to the Disney Vacation Club program. Then things went sideways. " https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/fin...20-the-beginning-of-a-new-era-in-direct-sales

In my opinion - things were going well and sales were only getting better - until the pandemic. We'll have to see how things go in future months - but my guess for the majority of people is even if buyers have the disposable income to buy DVC, they won't right now. When will consumer confidence return to pre-pandemic levels? It might take another year to fully recover.

 

[TexasChick123]

If you look at other businesses, they're having to roll back some pretty anti-consumer rules like airline flight change fees to try to get people to buy flights. So it wouldn't surprise me to see Disney doing more pro-consumer things to attract people.

1000x this. I NEVER thought airlines would remove change fees or allow points/miles to have no expiration date. Both of those things have happened now. Again, things change when a business is struggling. They aren’t struggling like a mom and pop that goes out of business, but laying off 28K people is struggling nonetheless.

Will they remove the restrictions? I have no idea. I personally think keeping them is a mistake at this point. They need to use every tool in their shed to increase sales including removing restrictions. Just my $0.02.

 

[Duckbug.Ducktales]

Multiple reports suggest sales were slow even before the pandemic..

https://dvcnews.com/index.php/dvc-p...-dvc-sales-slow-as-riviera-opening-approaches
https://*******.com/forum/threads/riviera-sales-up-but-overall-numbers-slump-in-november-2019.17235/
https://dvcfan.com/2020/03/09/dvc-show-how-are-riviera-sales-going/

There's been much debate about this lately: https://www.disboards.com/threads/direct-dvc-sales-statistics.3806398/page-14#post-62372381

IMO the consensus is what @Liquidice just said above.

 

[Yinn]

The big difference is that Disney did not predict was a global pandemic that shut down cruises, the parks, etc.

I don't think they were discouraged by people being turned off - if you look at the sales numbers pre-pandemic, they were just fine. The pandemic is the big unknown here - Disney may have previously been able to afford to play the long game and wait, but with revenue hurting, I don't think they can play as long of a game.

So if the sales don't rebound, I think they may end up re-considering the resale restrictions as a promotion to help make more direct sales. Or if they really want to stick to the resale restrictions, they could turn up the promotions and reduce the price of Riviera.

The documents for Riviera say they can turn it off or turn it back on anytime they want though - so even if they turn it off, they could turn them back on in the future.

I do agree with @chicagodisneyguy in that if sales don't improve - Disney could decide to replace leadership at DVC which could bring changes.

If you look at other businesses, they're having to roll back some pretty anti-consumer rules like airline flight change fees to try to get people to buy flights. So it wouldn't surprise me to see Disney doing more pro-consumer things to attract people.

I think that's a very valid point. The whole DVC sales is selling long term, which in turn hopefully creates park attendance, which in turns drives concession sales.

With attendance restricted and the long term an unknown, the value proposition has changed. Do you really want to be stuck with a DVC and no park attendance? Do you even want to go to the park? When does this pandemic end? Or if you are even more extreme - will Disney as a company be able to weather the storm?

Now all of a sudden a long term lock in isn't necessary an asset, it's a potential liability. Regardless of immediate sales records the arguments shifts. The buyer is armed with a couple more cons in their pros/cons list and the question has to be - what else could we throw onto the table to help that pro list - preferably one that wouldn't cost us a lot to do? Opening the perks would be one of those things.

 

[Duckbug.Ducktales]

1000x this. I NEVER thought airlines would remove change fees or allow points/miles to have no expiration date. Both of those things have happened now. Again, things change when a business is struggling. They aren’t struggling like a mom and pop that goes out of business, but laying off 28K people is struggling nonetheless.

Will they remove the restrictions? I have no idea. I personally think keeping them is a mistake at this point. They need to use every tool in their shed to increase sales including removing restrictions. Just my $0.02.

Agreed! All we can do is hope...

 

[Sandisw]

Well, I heard back from Disney and they are moving my question up the chain to a different department,

Which is pretty interesting since I simply asked if there are changes coming and will I be notified as a RIV owner,

They mentioned they don’t have a timeline when I will hear back, but not sure if this means anything, but find it odd they just didn’t say all things are still the same.

 

[Duckbug.Ducktales]

Well, I heard back from Disney and they are moving my question up the chain to a different department,

Which is pretty interesting since I simply asked if there are changes coming and will I be notified as a RIV owner,

They mentioned they don’t have a timeline when I will hear back, but not sure if this means anything, but find it odd they just didn’t say all things are still the same.

Whoa. I'll keep my fingers crossed...

 

[havoc315]

You have to remember RVA didn't open until 12/16/19, some people may have purchased before the opening - but I don't know if typically resorts sell a lot before they open? The numbers didn't look too bad in 2019 though...

But after RVA opened - the numbers seemed good though.

https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/fin...propels-dvc-to-best-december-sales-in-8-years
https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/financial/news-34867/4695-direct-sales-strong-in-january-2020 ... "In the weeks following its grand opening, Disney's Riviera Resort posted its best-ever sales numbers in January 2020."

Even in March 2020 leading up to WDW's closure - "Disney's Riviera Resort was poised to deliver its best single-month sales since being added to the Disney Vacation Club program. Then things went sideways. " https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program/fin...20-the-beginning-of-a-new-era-in-direct-sales

"best single month ever" specifically as to the Riviera. No matter how poorly something sells, they are still going to have a best month.
Seen conflicting analyses about how sales were going prior to the pandemic.

 

[Sandisw]

"best single month ever" specifically as to the Riviera. No matter how poorly something sells, they are still going to have a best month.
Seen conflicting analyses about how sales were going prior to the pandemic.

The December sales, though, were the best in 8 years and it was propelled by RIV. So, prior to Dec 2019, whatever was selling at the time, had worse sales than RIV did for that month.

Definitely agree with conflicting data, but agaih, most of the analysis of it being poor are based on expectations and assumptions by individuals and not based on information coming from Disney.

 

[andyman8]

Well, I heard back from Disney and they are moving my question up the chain to a different department,

Which is pretty interesting since I simply asked if there are changes coming and will I be notified as a RIV owner,

They mentioned they don’t have a timeline when I will hear back, but not sure if this means anything, but find it odd they just didn’t say all things are still the same.

Thank you for reporting back! Certainly strange we’re not seeing any sort of official statement from DVC. Certainly they’ve seen this buzz by now.

 

[ChipNdale8887]

Thank you for reporting back! Certainly strange we’re not seeing any sort of official statement from DVC. Certainly they’ve seen this buzz by now.

I'm starting to think they started updating docs back in July to possibly implement this change. This waiver somehow started getting put out before hand. So they retracted it since it wasn't official yet but only being planned as a possibility internally... I'm thinking when the current discounts end or when they have their next financial meeting next month they'll announce it then. OR....When does the min go up to 125 points?... Although if they are doing a survey just now I wouldn't think it would be this soon so sometime in November.

 

[ScubaCat]

It is definitely depressing sales because we would have purchased from 300-400 points without the restrictions. So RIV sales are depressed by a minimum of 300-400 points.

That doesn't mean someone else won't buy them in your place. As long as enough people buy all the points in an appropriate period of time, the sales aren't affected by a small subset of potential buyers balking at the restrictions.

 

[ScubaCat]

I'm starting to think they started updating docs back in July to possibly implement this change.

They updated the waiver courtesy notice to remove the reference to Reflections and someone made a mistake. Even still, a courtesy notice at the bottom of an ROFR waiver means nothing. They could put a comment that only direct buyers get the good mickey waffles and the document would still mean the same thing.

 

[RoseGold]

If there is one thing I have learned, the older I get, I realize I am not unique. I am sure there are thousands of mes out there who would have added on at RIV but didn’t because of the restrictions.

And then you see the BILLION kiosks peddling DVC everywhere and realize there must also be thousands of not-mes.