VIP Tour: LGBTQ2 (or Friendly) Tour Guide?

[Jonfw2]

I find it surprising that the company would not only ask tour guides what their sexual orientation was, but also keep a database of the guides’ sexual orientations on file so that they could honor special requests. Even though this database would also make it easy to honor the requests of bigots demanding heterosexual tour guides, I would hope that such requests would not be honored.

Well, they’re 100% in violation of the law even asking employees their orientation in the first place. But to ask the question in relation to what work assignments they received? Yikes.

 

[FCDub]

I’m not apologizing for using a commonly accepted term in a context where there was clearly no ill intent.

People are LITERALLY trying to tell you where you've gone wrong but you refuse to accept it. Now you're just being knowingly ignorant.

 

[Jonfw2]

People are LITERALLY trying to tell you where you've gone wrong but you refuse to accept it. Now you're just being knowingly ignorant.

Nah...they're more lecturing, insulting, and talking down to me.

 

[Luxurious_Lumiere]

re: Yensid's quote: "I understand you are paying a lot of money and want the best experience possible for yourself, your husband and your children but by asking this and basically requesting a guide based on them being LGBTQ2+ or an ally, you are inherently assuming the worst."

It's not just "assuming the worst" of a tour guide. It goes beyond that. There is a certain level of comfort and ease in being around other queer people. It's not wrong for queer people to want a specifically queer experience or space. I can promise you a gay bar feels WAY different than a "gay friendly" bar with a very mixed crowd (every bar in Brooklyn seems to want to be this kind of space, and yet gay people still get stares or feel out of place). If I was booking a tour, I'd love a queer guide so I could feel most comfortable, so I could easily converse with guide, so that the guide could potentially better tailor the trip to my interests and needs. None of that is about "assuming the worst" in a straight tour guide, it's just about cultivating a certain kind of experience. Furthermore, when spending a premium on a VIP experience, it is not the guests responsibility to deal with bigotry of discomfort and then have to go through the rigmarole of getting a refund, potentially after already enduring part or all of a terrible tour, all in the supposed name of inclusion. Disney has plenty of ways to put the right guides with the right guests in these cases, and none of them involve any type of illegal database of employee sexuality.

Regardless of anything in this discussion, to the original point of the thread: yes you 100% can make this request. And yes Disney will 100% do what they can to assign you a guide they think will be a good fit.

 

[GoingSince1990]

If I was booking a tour, I'd love a queer guide so I could feel most comfortable, so I could easily converse with guide, so that the guide could potentially better tailor the trip to my interests and needs. None of that is about "assuming the worst" in a straight tour guide, it's just about cultivating a certain kind of experience.

If someone booking a VIP tour requested a heterosexual tour guide, not that they were “assuming the worst” about the gay tour guides, but just because they wanted to “feel comfortable” and “cultivate a certain kind of experience”, is that a request that in your opinion Disney should try to honor?

 

[Luxurious_Lumiere]

If someone booking a VIP tour requested a heterosexual tour guide, not that they were “assuming the worst” about the gay tour guides, but just because they wanted to “feel comfortable” and “cultivate a certain kind of experience”, is that a request that in your opinion Disney should try to honor?

I certainly would not want any queer tour guides to be subject to a potential uncomfortable situation or bigoted behavior all day long, so yes Disney would be smart to try and honor that request to protect their queer employees.

 

[Jonfw2]

I certainly would not want any queer tour guides to be subject to a potential uncomfortable situation or bigoted behavior all day long, so yes Disney would be smart to try and honor that request to protect their queer employees.

In your view, how does Disney go about discovering which of its employees are queer and which are straight?

 

[Luxurious_Lumiere]

Seriously? In a close working environment, this tends to be common knowledge. Not every employee shares info about their lives at work, but in my experience most do. It's just part of life to talk about your spouse or significant other, for just one very basic example. The person scheduling tours is unlikely to know everyone's sexual orientation on their staff, but they will absolutely have people on their team to go to for requests like this. Again, this is not about keeping tabs on people in a weird "big brother" way, it's just about thinking "Oh I know David will have a ball with this family!"

 

[GoingSince1990]

I certainly would not want any queer tour guides to be subject to a potential uncomfortable situation or bigoted behavior all day long, so yes Disney would be smart to try and honor that request to protect their queer employees.

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree, then. As my final post in this discussion thread, I will say that I firmly believe that Disney should flat out refuse to honor requests for tour guides based on race, religion, or sexual orientation. We have spent years raising our children to be tolerant and teaching them that such things don’t matter, and to me this seems to be totally contradictory of that.

 

[Jonfw2]

Seriously? In a close working environment, this tends to be common knowledge. Not every employee shares info about their lives at work, but in my experience most do. It's just part of life to talk about your spouse or significant other, for just one very basic example. The person scheduling tours is unlikely to know everyone's sexual orientation on their staff, but they will absolutely have people on their team to go to for requests like this. Again, this is not about keeping tabs on people in a weird "big brother" way, it's just about thinking "Oh I know David will have a ball with this family!"

Just so we're clear, "common knowledge" is very, very different than Disney saying "hey Bill- you're queer, right? We have a tour group that wants you".

The first one is a gray area that's more or less accepted (if not ever actually acknowledged). The second is illegal.

Your argument also gets into the danger zone of assumption- Susan finds out she's been assigned to tour groups specifically because she's gay. Maybe she's extremely private about this. Maybe she's not even gay in the first place. You've got a heck of a lawsuit on your hands here.

 

[Luxurious_Lumiere]

@Jonfw2 No one needs to be secretly assigned based on perceived or known sexuality. And if someone was intensely private about their personal life, per my post above, they would likely not be the supervisor's "go to" person for this type of request. Why can't the supervisor simply put out a message saying: "we have a family with two dads who would love a tour guide who is queer or an ally to guide them on their special day. Is anyone interested in helping out this family?"
No need to ask for sexual orientation or anything. You would just know that whoever responds in the affirmative is excited to tour around a family with gay parents. Easy.

And @GoingSince1990 I'm glad you have raised your kids to be tolerant. That's what the world needs. Unfortunately, not everyone does this. At my own workplace, I run a team that includes many Queer and BIPOC individuals, and I have absolutely had members of my team forward racist or bigoted callers to me so that they didn't have to deal with such vileness at the workplace. This type of hate sadly exists in the world still. And as such, some people carry fears or trauma from it with them. So they may want some kind of reassurance when spending the big bucks to have a guide with them all day, that the experience will only be a positive one and they will not be made to feel uncomfortable. I don't think I would personally feel the need to make this request myself, but I absolutely understand the desire for it.

 

[Jonfw2]

Why can't the supervisor simply put out a message saying: "we have a family with two dads who would love a tour guide who is queer or an ally to guide them on their special day. Is anyone interested in helping out this family?"

You can say ally, but once you say queer, you've broken the law. No company would EVER put this in writing. It's discrimination to the letter of the law.

 

[Luxurious_Lumiere]

Well, we know that Disney takes requests so they surely have a way. I've said my peace on this.

 

[Smugpugmug]

So I've been following along on this thread and I have mixed feelings. I feel like I agree with bits and pieces of both sides. I am a lesbian woman and personally, yeah I would be comfortable with a tour guide that was also LGBTQ+. I agree with Luxurious_Lumire in that it just feels different when you know you're with other LGBT folks. I don't know how else to describe it to heterosexual people. I feel like the bar example is a good one. I've been to bars that are geared towards LGBT people (as in they had drag shows every night and it was common knowledge that 99% of the people there were LGBT) and I've been to bars that are "LGBT friendly". These two places have a VERY different feel. If a company can accommodate someone that wanted a LGBT tour guide when they're paying VIP tour prices, then sure. Go ahead.

However, I feel somewhat uncomfortable with the notion that your employer has tabs on what your orientation is. None of my coworkers know that I am a lesbian and my boss especially doesn't know. I just don't know how a company like Disney could keep track of that without it being in some weird legal space.

Circling back to what started this, yeah I don't think "sexual preference" was the right wording to use. Not a single LGBT person I know has ever referred to themselves as that. It's almost always heterosexual people using that phrase. I understand that Jon did not have any bad intent in using that phrase. However, in the future I would suggest not using it as for a lot of LGBT folks having our orientation be referred to as a preference rubs us the wrong way.

 

[Jonfw2]

Circling back to what started this, yeah I don't think "sexual preference" was the right wording to use. Not a single LGBT person I know has ever referred to themselves as that. It's almost always heterosexual people using that phrase. I understand that Jon did not have any bad intent in using that phrase. However, in the future I would suggest not using it as for a lot of LGBT folks having our orientation be referred to as a preference rubs us the wrong way.

Thanks! This thread is honestly the first time I'd ever heard that and I think you'd be surprised to know that many hetero people don't realize it's not an accepted term. I have already begun correcting myself in my head to "orientation".

 

[FCDub]

Nah...they're more lecturing, insulting, and talking down to me.

Because you continued to dig in even after you were told it was the incorrect phrase. Be well, Jon.

 

[Karin1984]

So I've been following along on this thread and I have mixed feelings. I feel like I agree with bits and pieces of both sides. I am a lesbian woman and personally, yeah I would be comfortable with a tour guide that was also LGBTQ+. I agree with Luxurious_Lumire in that it just feels different when you know you're with other LGBT folks. I don't know how else to describe it to heterosexual people. I feel like the bar example is a good one. I've been to bars that are geared towards LGBT people (as in they had drag shows every night and it was common knowledge that 99% of the people there were LGBT) and I've been to bars that are "LGBT friendly". These two places have a VERY different feel. If a company can accommodate someone that wanted a LGBT tour guide when they're paying VIP tour prices, then sure. Go ahead.

However, I feel somewhat uncomfortable with the notion that your employer has tabs on what your orientation is. None of my coworkers know that I am a lesbian and my boss especially doesn't know. I just don't know how a company like Disney could keep track of that without it being in some weird legal space.

I think you can describe it as being in a foreign country, you are doing a tour at a tourist attraction and you ask for a guide who speaks your language and/or is from your country. I think in a way you can compare it to a cultural thing. Being from the same culture your guide will understand certain subtext. You have something vital in common.

I do not think Disney has a database, but I do think there are plenty of people open about their orientation at Disney. Disney offers products and services that are well-loved in the LGTBQ+ community, is tolerant, supportive, so LGTBQ+ people will want to work there. Same like the theater and airline industry are work places where often people can find a lot of support.

People who feel supported by their employee and colleagues will probably feel comfortable to share details about their lives, like if they have a partner or maybe saying to go to a LGBTQ+ bar after work, looking forward to gay days or pride. That is how "common knowledge" starts.
I know of most of my colleagues their relationship status, because we feel comfortable to chat about this during lunch.

I assume that the planning department of the vip tours know their guides. I do not think there is a box to tick in their system to select all LGTBQ+ or straight guides. I think the system selects a guide based on availability, and that there is someone manually reviewing the request for anything specific and then check if the guide and the group are a good match, and make adjustments if needed.

 

[Mle8308]

We gave an LGBTQ+ History Tour as one of our offerings, and it was important to the company that only queer guides lead that tour. It wasn't a scary, mandatory database or anything. There's way more to cover in NYC than a controlled environment like Disney, where all the guides are super on script. You need all types of people with a huge range of experiences and expertise, and any good tour company knows who's working for them. Sometimes you're just matching a body to a group, but more often for VIPs we'd really try to select the best fit.

As for bigots demanding heterosexual tour guides, that did happen on occasion. Always from large private religious groups. Either school groups "just concerned about the children" or adult groups looking for "a leader who aligns with their values."

In true New York fashion, my boss used to tell those potential clients exactly where they could stick those requests.

Can I ask a question, why is not okay for a person to ask for a heterosexual tour guide if it is okay to ask for an LGBTQ+ tour guide? And why are they bigots but a person asking for an LGBTQ+ tour guide is not? Personally I would not care as long as the person was knowledgeable about the subject at hand. Should there be that double standard and if so, why? And this is an honest question, I am not looking to be controversial. I think we should be respectful of all.

 

[Jonfw2]

Because you continued to dig in even after you were told it was the incorrect phrase. Be well, Jon.

Again, I wasn't "told it was an incorrect phrase".

You want to see how I would have responded to a polite correction that acknowledged my error was without malice? See above.

 

[Smugpugmug]

Thanks! This thread is honestly the first time I'd ever heard that and I think you'd be surprised to know that many hetero people don't realize it's not an accepted term. I have already begun correcting myself in my head to "orientation".

No, I get it. Again I didn't see any malicious intent in your wording but I can also understand the not so positive reactions to it from other people in this thread. It's similar to how not all LGBT people refer to themselves as queer. Many folks are reclaiming that term while others do not feel comfortable being referred to it.

I think you can describe it as being in a foreign country, you are doing a tour at a tourist attraction and you ask for a guide who speaks your language and/or is from your country. I think in a way you can compare it to a cultural thing. Being from the same culture your guide will understand certain subtext. You have something vital in common.

I do not think Disney has a database, but I do think there are plenty of people open about their orientation at Disney. Disney offers products and services that are well-loved in the LGTBQ+ community, is tolerant, supportive, so LGTBQ+ people will want to work there. Same like the theater and airline industry are work places where often people can find a lot of support.

People who feel supported by their employee and colleagues will probably feel comfortable to share details about their lives, like if they have a partner or maybe saying to go to a LGBTQ+ bar after work, looking forward to gay days or pride. That is how "common knowledge" starts.
I know of most of my colleagues their relationship status, because we feel comfortable to chat about this during lunch.

I assume that the planning department of the vip tours know their guides. I do not think there is a box to tick in their system to select all LGTBQ+ or straight guides. I think the system selects a guide based on availability, and that there is someone manually reviewing the request for anything specific and then check if the guide and the group are a good match, and make adjustments if needed.

Yeah that's a good way of describing it. Thank you for saying better than I could lol

I guess my hang up was from my personal discomfort of my workplace knowing my sexual orientation. I'm not super close to anyone at my job so I would prefer to keep my life separate. Truthfully I did not know that it was a common occurrence for people to request specific guides or LGBT guides for Disney VIP tours (or other tours of the same caliber) before reading this thread. If it works, that's great. I just hope it could be able to work without it getting into a legal issue.