Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

OK. I had my call with Yvonne (and another person present):

I pointed out what COULD happen in this situation - that by increasing lock-out premiums, you COULD succeed in driving more people to 2-bedrooms - But you COULD have the opposite effect, and find that it doesn't actually increase the number of people booking two bedrooms. I pointed to her for example that for a family like myself that only has 3 people you could raise studios 50% and I wouldn't be booking a 2-bedroom since my family has no need for that much space regardless. And I asked her what would be the response in that case where the data shows instead of driving people to 2-bedrooms it had no effect or the opposite effect (this circled back to my question #2 above). What she said is that every year the allocations are re-evaluated and there are adjustments made based on the data. In other words - she wasn't going to come out and say that they would roll it back, but the implication was if it didn't work then they would at least consider that option. (Editor's note: I don't believe this.)

Hey Pete, thank you so much for representing the rest of us and going to all this work. I think you are exactly right when you indicate that you, and a lot of people, just ARE NOT in the market for a 2-bedroom, and Disney should know this. If your family has 4 people or less, maybe even 5 or less, why would you EVER go to the extra expense of getting a 2 bedroom. The average young family nowadays is 4 people or less. I think it is clear that Disney is barking up the wrong tree with this, and lying through their teeth, too.

It doesn't matter how much 'demand' there is for a particular type of unit, if all you are doing is calculating requests for numbers of units. ACTUAL DEMAND is how often can someone get the type of unit they want? And how many units are there of each type, which ultimately leads to which types of units FILL UP FIRST. And Second. And Third. It is the FILLING UP OF THOSE UNIT TYPES that is the ACTUAL demand. For example, if you have 100 units that are 1 bedroom, and only 40 units that are 2 bedroom, but the 2 bedrooms all book out while only 60 of the 1-bedrooms have booked out, then it DOES NOT MATTER THAT 60 people booked 1 bedrooms and only 40 booked 2-bedrooms. There are no more 2 bedrooms available. So the demand (the RELATIVE demand) for the 2-bedrooms is clearly higher than the 1-bedrooms. NOTHING ELSE MAKES SENSE, no matter how Disney claims they calculate it. Hence, they ARE lying.
 
She said that changes need to take into consideration all 65,000 members - not just myself. I agreed that I understood that a change may impact me negatively and I am OK with that, but want to be able to see where the change impacts members overall favorably.

Is that how many DVC Members there really are? 65,000? According to figures they released, as of the current date, Disney has sold around 225,000 DVC contracts. If the figure of 65,000 members is correct (I presume she really means 65,000 accounts), then that means that the 'average' owner would need to own 4 contracts. I really don't think that is true.
 
Is that how many DVC Members there really are? 65,000? According to figures they released, as of the current date, Disney has sold around 225,000 DVC contracts. If the figure of 65,000 members is correct (I presume she really means 65,000 accounts), then that means that the 'average' owner would need to own 4 contracts. I really don't think that is true.

I don't think we can draw any reasonable conclusion with just that info (members and contracts). Better would be total points sold and memberships. Then we could calculate the average number of points owned. Better way to judge. I doubt that those of us who frequent the DIS are typical owners, either. YMMV.
 


Is that how many DVC Members there really are? 65,000? According to figures they released, as of the current date, Disney has sold around 225,000 DVC contracts. If the figure of 65,000 members is correct (I presume she really means 65,000 accounts), then that means that the 'average' owner would need to own 4 contracts. I really don't think that is true.

She obviously misspoke. Included with the Riviera POS is a per resort breakdown of total number of DVC members as of September 2017, and the total then was 244,767.
 
Is that how many DVC Members there really are? 65,000? According to figures they released, as of the current date, Disney has sold around 225,000 DVC contracts. If the figure of 65,000 members is correct (I presume she really means 65,000 accounts), then that means that the 'average' owner would need to own 4 contracts. I really don't think that is true.

I had said in an earlier post I may have heard that wrong. But I also would say that even though there are 225,000 contracts there are certainly less members. No way to know know the average # of contracts per member, but I would guess the average is closer to 2 than one. She might have said 165,000 members, which I would believe if there are 225,000 contracts
 
I had said in an earlier post I may have heard that wrong. But I also would say that even though there are 225,000 contracts there are certainly less members. No way to know know the average # of contracts per member, but I would guess the average is closer to 2 than one. She might have said 165,000 members, which I would believe if there are 225,000 contracts

The 225000 is reported members I believe. They do not report on contracts. At least I've never seen that number anywhere.
 


Just providing a little additional information that we may want to have available when DVC decides again that it may raise the points needed for studios and 1BRs year round while lowering 2BRs. While going through an old box, I found a couple documents I thought were long gone.

One is a Product Understanding Checklist given to purchasers at BWV dated in 1998. Even more than other documents mentioned in this thread, it appears to limit DVCMC's right to reallocate points only in response to seasonal demand not in response to differences in vacation home type demand:

"Each Vacation Home is assigned a nightly point value which varies depending upon the season of use, location and the size of the Vacation Home. The total number of Home Resort Vacation Points required to use all Vacation Homes during the entire Use Year will never change, but DVCMC reserves the right to change the number of Vacation Points required to reserve any specific night in a particular Vacation Home, based upon seasonal demand. The reallocation cannot exceed 20% per calendar year."

The second document is actually a Public Offering Statement filed by DVD with the State of Illinois from 1997 relating to BWV. It is a document given to purchasers in Illinois in late 1990s It has a section in which it sets out what is intended by section 3.3 of the DVC Membership Agreement, the one that deals with DVCMC's ability to reallocate points.That section in the Illinois POS states:

"Pursuant to paragraph 3.3 of the Membership Agreement, a certain number of Vacation Points have been or will be established by DVCMC in its sole discretion for the use of each type of Vacation Home during each Use Day, with variations that take into account , among other factors, anticipated seasonal and geographical demand factors and the related actual use demand of Club Members experienced by DVCMC in the operation of the Club.

"The total number of Vacation Points required to reserve all Vacation Home types during all Use Days in the condominium or any other DVC Resort associated with the Club must always equal, and be symbolic of, the total number of Ownership Interests owned by Club Members at the resort. In order to meet the Club Members’ needs and expectations as experienced by DVCMC during a given calendar year, DVCMC may in its sole discretion increase or decrease the Vacation Point requirements for reservation of a given Use Day within a given Vacation Home type at that DVC Resort during the given calendar year by any amount not to exceed twenty percent (20%) of the Vacation Points required to reserve that Use Day during the previous calendar year; provided however, that the total number of Vacation Points existing within a given Vacation Home type and at that DVC Resort at any time may not be increased or decreased because of any such reallocation. The twenty percent (20%) reallocation limitation shall not apply to increases or decreases in Vacation Point reservation requirements relating to holidays which do not occur on the same Use Day each year.

"Any increase or decrease in the Vacation Point reservation requirement for a given Use Day pursuant to DVCMC’s right to make this Vacation Point reservation requirement must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase for a comparable Use Day or Use Days."

Notice how this section, which provides that it applies to each and every DVC Resort, says DVCMC may increase or decrease the points required for a given Use Day for a “Vacation Home type” but such activity cannot change the total points within that given “Vacation Home type.” This appears to further confirm our belief that DVCMC cannot increase point requirements for studios or 1BRs while lowering point requirements for 2BRs.

Makes me wonder what documentation DVD may have filed in other states that may further support our position.
 
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Found this in the Multi-Site Public Offering Statement we received in 2017, not sure if it helps.
 

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Just providing a little additional information that we may want to have available when DVC decides again that it may raise the points needed for studios and 1BRs year round while lowering 2BRs. While going through an old box, I found a couple documents I thought were long gone.

One is a Product Understanding Checklist given to purchasers at BWV dated in 1998. Even more than other documents mentioned in this thread, it appears to limit DVCMC's right to reallocate points only in response to seasonal demand not in response to differences in vacation home type demand:

"Each Vacation Home is assigned a nightly point value which varies depending upon the season of use, location and the size of the Vacation Home. The total number of Home Resort Vacation Points required to use all Vacation Homes during the entire Use Year will never change, but DVCMC reserves the right to change the number of Vacation Points required to reserve any specific night in a particular Vacation Home, based upon seasonal demand. The reallocation cannot exceed 20% per calendar year."

The second document is actually a Public Offering Statement filed by DVD with the State of Illinois from 1997 relating to BWV. It is a document given to purchasers in Illinois in late 1990s It has a section in which it sets out what is intended by section 3.3 of the DVC Membership Agreement, the one that deals with DVCMC's ability to reallocate points.That section in the Illinois POS states:

"Pursuant to paragraph 3.3 of the Membership Agreement, a certain number of Vacation Points have been or will be established by DVCMC in its sole discretion for the use of each type of Vacation Home during each Use Day, with variations that take into account , among other factors, anticipated seasonal and geographical demand factors and the related actual use demand of Club Members experienced by DVCMC in the operation of the Club.

"The total number of Vacation Points required to reserve all Vacation Home types during all Use Days in the condominium or any other DVC Resort associated with the Club must always equal, and be symbolic of, the total number of Ownership Interests owned by Club members at the resort. In order to meet the Club members’ needs and expectations as experienced by DVCMC during a given calendar year, DVCMC may in its sole discretion increase or decrease the Vacation Point requirements for reservation of a given Use Day within a given Vacation Home type at that DVC Resort during the given calendar year by any amount not to exceed twenty percent (20%) of the Vacation Points required to reserve that Use Day during the previous calendar year; provided however, that the total number of Vacation points existing within a given Vacation Home type and at that DVC Resort at any time may not be increased or decreased because of any such reallocation. The twenty percent (20%) reallocation limitation shall not apply to increases or decreases in Vacation Point reservation requirements relating to holidays which do not occur on the same Use Day each year.

"Any increase or decrease in the Vacation Point reservation requirement for a given Use Day pursuant to DVCMC’s right to make this Vacation Point reservation requirement must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase for a comparable Use Day or Use Days."

Notice how this section, which provides that it applies to each and every DVC Resort, says DVCMC may increase or decrease the points required for a given Use Day for a “Vacation Home type” but such activity cannot change the total points within that given “Vacation Home type.” This appears to further confirm our belief that DVCMC cannot increase point requirements for studios or 1BRs while lowering point requirements for 2BRs.

Makes me wonder what documentation DVD may have filed in other states that may further support our position.
This is interesting about the POS. I brought up to Yvonne (when talking with her at the beginning of the point change) the product understanding checklist language. I believe that is what I said until VGF, which is when it became ambiguous. All I was told was the Product Undertanding Checklist wasn’t legally binding and was meant to offer assistance in understanding the document. I rebutted saying to me it showed the initial crafters of the POS had an intention to the interpretation of their language.

If it is true they can’t, they have done so with Saratoga Springs already so wonder what happens there. What I think has basically happened you have management that wants to work differently than the crafters of the POS and decelerations that they intially intended. So they are trying to ignore their prior statements on how they were choosing to interpret preciously certain documents.

On a side note someone posted a Membership Agreement a long time ago on here that said the increase or decrease could be offset within another vacation Home. I think it was for Old Key West though the one on Comptrollers site doesn’t say that. I’ll have to look for that post.
 
Found this in the Multi-Site Public Offering Statement we received in 2017, not sure if it helps.
As for this my conversation with Yvonne was they said it was only good the first year, which didn’t seem legit to me. Though after that conversation the charts ended up reverting so didn’t bother following up on that statement.

My argument was the maximum reallocations implied the maximum average nightly point cost for a Vacation Home type which seemed to stand true for the resorts I checked prior to their reallocations. To which her rebuttal was yes but the first year only.

For future refrenece next year wanted to reshare my conversation with her and as a reminder to myself if I need to revisit this.
 
Love it when an Executive makes the "executive" decision just to ignore a legal document, I can only imagine how that would go over with a judge. :rolleyes1
 
Love it when an Executive makes the "executive" decision just to ignore a legal document, I can only imagine how that would go over with a judge. :rolleyes1
I asked them if that was how it was interpreted by the original crafters could the new management change the interpretation even though they are relying on the same document. That question wasn't answered.
 
As for this my conversation with Yvonne was they said it was only good the first year, which didn’t seem legit to me. Though after that conversation the charts ended up reverting so didn’t bother following up on that statement.

Yeah, doesn't say anything in that section about only being good for the first year.
 
https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...020-reallocation.3726101/page-7#post-60078170

@drusba I found the post that has a multi-site POS that explicitly states they can move between Vacation Home Types. Now I'm not sure what year this is from or what resort. Though my CCV multi-site POS isn't similar to this one but consistent with the Membership Agreements for each Resort.

Your points you brought up were what I brought up with Yvonne as my concerns but I also brought into the discussion the maximum reallocation event and the implications of that.
 
Did not mean for my post to restart the argument as to whether they can or cannot do what they attempted. I am providing some new info and suggesting that others may want to look also, particularly at any applicable state filings. What we want to do before the next battle begins is have all the things we can find to assert our position is reasonable.

I am well aware of the multi-site language but that is not a winner for DVC and it knows that. The multi-site is not the document that is supposed to control. Its language, even if accepted, still does not win for Disney the issue of whether it should be limited to seasonal point shifting, which is not what it attempted with the withdrawn 2020 point chart, and going too far claiming the multi-site controls raises a lot of issues DVC wants to avoid, such as the clear multi-site language that provides that all Club Members, which includes all resale purchasers, are entitled to use the DVC Reservation Component to reserve any and all DVC Resorts including any added to the system such as Riviera, i.e., I doubt DVC wants to rely too heavily on the multi-site.

In essence, the case we want to develop further is the one that has already caused DVC to balk,except we want more to support it if we can find it, so that DVC will back-off again or abandon its reallocation plan entirely. That case provides that the Membership Agreement, including the maximum reallocation provisions, supports our position, even if the section is somewhat ambiguous, and that DVD sold ownership interests declaring ours was the correct position, including via the Product Understanding document and POS filings in states like Illinois. It is the kind of case you know you will likely win if the big company you are up against is reduced to relying on an argument that the documents it gave to you to rely on, such as the Product Understanding document, should be ignored because they are not binding. That is the kind of argument that basically tells a judge the big company is a scumbag trying to get away with something.
 
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That case provides that the Membership Agreement, including the maximum reallocation provisions, supports our position, even if the section somewhat ambiguous, and that DVD sold ownership interests declaring ours was the correct position, including via the Product Understanding document and POS filings in states like Illinois.
I agree with you on these points and my posts were only meant to highlight I raised those exact issue with DVC and still maintain (even to this day) that the position you presented here are the same as I did and are correct. As for the Multi-Site you are right they can't claim it binds in one case but not the other (Reallocation vs. Resale Restriction arguments). So all our Resort Agreements do not say it is across Vacation Home Types explicitly, and we as the consumer can only go off of what they provided as evidence in their fillings with the states and the Product Understanding Checklist, which was always seasonal adjustments until recently.
 
Just providing a little additional information that we may want to have available when DVC decides again that it may raise the points needed for studios and 1BRs year round while lowering 2BRs. While going through an old box, I found a couple documents I thought were long gone.

One is a Product Understanding Checklist given to purchasers at BWV dated in 1998. Even more than other documents mentioned in this thread, it appears to limit DVCMC's right to reallocate points only in response to seasonal demand not in response to differences in vacation home type demand:

"Each Vacation Home is assigned a nightly point value which varies depending upon the season of use, location and the size of the Vacation Home. The total number of Home Resort Vacation Points required to use all Vacation Homes during the entire Use Year will never change, but DVCMC reserves the right to change the number of Vacation Points required to reserve any specific night in a particular Vacation Home, based upon seasonal demand. The reallocation cannot exceed 20% per calendar year."

The second document is actually a Public Offering Statement filed by DVD with the State of Illinois from 1997 relating to BWV. It is a document given to purchasers in Illinois in late 1990s It has a section in which it sets out what is intended by section 3.3 of the DVC Membership Agreement, the one that deals with DVCMC's ability to reallocate points.That section in the Illinois POS states:

"Pursuant to paragraph 3.3 of the Membership Agreement, a certain number of Vacation Points have been or will be established by DVCMC in its sole discretion for the use of each type of Vacation Home during each Use Day, with variations that take into account , among other factors, anticipated seasonal and geographical demand factors and the related actual use demand of Club Members experienced by DVCMC in the operation of the Club.

"The total number of Vacation Points required to reserve all Vacation Home types during all Use Days in the condominium or any other DVC Resort associated with the Club must always equal, and be symbolic of, the total number of Ownership Interests owned by Club Members at the resort. In order to meet the Club Members’ needs and expectations as experienced by DVCMC during a given calendar year, DVCMC may in its sole discretion increase or decrease the Vacation Point requirements for reservation of a given Use Day within a given Vacation Home type at that DVC Resort during the given calendar year by any amount not to exceed twenty percent (20%) of the Vacation Points required to reserve that Use Day during the previous calendar year; provided however, that the total number of Vacation points existing within a given Vacation Home type and at that DVC Resort at any time may not be increased or decreased because of any such reallocation. The twenty percent (20%) reallocation limitation shall not apply to increases or decreases in Vacation Point reservation requirements relating to holidays which do not occur on the same Use Day each year.

"Any increase or decrease in the Vacation Point reservation requirement for a given Use Day pursuant to DVCMC’s right to make this Vacation Point reservation requirement must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase for a comparable Use Day or Use Days."

Notice how this section, which provides that it applies to each and every DVC Resort, says DVCMC may increase or decrease the points required for a given Use Day for a “Vacation Home type” but such activity cannot change the total points within that given “Vacation Home type.” This appears to further confirm our belief that DVCMC cannot increase point requirements for studios or 1BRs while lowering point requirements for 2BRs.

Makes me wonder what documentation DVD may have filed in other states that may further support our position.

Drusba, thank you so much for posting this. It is a very important document. Please make photocopies of it, take pictures of it, and store it away in a safe. The day may come when it is a key piece of information in a court case. I would also encourage EVERYONE who still has and can locate their own closing documents to do the same, no matter when you bought and which resort. They literally might be worth their weight in gold at some point in the future.

I think it is VERY clear that the document you posted says they can NOT increase total points (increase lock-off premium, anyone?) and that ANY point reallocation that they make MUST be balanced within the SAME TYPE of unit by decreasing those other, same units, by an identical amount during different days or seasons.

There is no way Disney can get around this. Any claim that the 'checklist' is not the contract are erroneous. Yes, they are not 'The Contract' but they ARE part of the closing documents. They were used by Disney to make their sales. And that gives them validity and legal standing in a court of law. They become an 'implied contract.' Implied in official Disney writing. Also, the checklist is to help explain the contract, and the contract says the same thing!

So, Disney better be VERY careful, or here is what is going to happen:

1. Once a sufficient number of people get pissed off by Disney's actions, they are going to sue Disney.

2. They WILL be able to get it certified as a Class Action suit.

3. Disney will lose the case, because their own documentation is against them.

4. Disney will be slapped with fines.

5. Disney will need to make Restitution, not only for what is happening now, but going back to the very first changes they made (at SSR?) which violated this.

6. This Restitution will probably take the form of a specific amount of 'floating DVC points' which are given to each individual, depending on when they bought into DVC and how much they own. They might even be required to 'restore' those points to the people who actually owned the contracts at the time, so they can use them, even if those people no longer own DVC contracts. The Restitution Points will be 'floating points,' not attached to a particular use year, because they will have been accumulated over many years, so it will not be reasonable to require the owners to use them all up in one year. This means, among other things, that they can function as a collection of long term banked points.

7. All of this will cost Disney money and will give them a very black eye, as well as greatly harming current and future Direct Sales.

So, come on Disney, what will it be? Will you continue to go down the same reckless path that you have already started on, increasing points (especially lock-off premiums) willey-niley? Or will you take a look at some of the errors you have made and start to roll back some of those mistakes, to restore balance, and 'fix' the problems you have caused? If you don't do that, then in the end, YOU CANNOT WIN, because once it goes to court, and you lose, you WILL be required to 'make it good' for as far back as you have been violating the contracts, and restore the points you have taken egregiously.
 
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DVC is now stuck in a limbo. They've already made changes at many resorts moving points across units. SSR is the resort with the gratest changes (THV, new preferred and standard views), but I can remember also BLT and AKV reclassifications. I would say those changes were in the interest of the members, but if they rolled back the 2020 reallocation because moving points across units is not possible (there might be another reason) then they're in trouble because some changes have been in place for years. Are they just going to just ignore the fact and hope no one sues? Or are they going to roll back the changes next year?

Another consideration. Let's say instead DVC can legally move points across units and increase the cost of studios while decreasing the cost of other units. Don't you think this should be clearly spelled out in the POS and the accompanying documents? I know that a buyer should carefully read the POS before signing, but we're talking something that has been debated for months here, with reasonable people having conflicting views and DVC itself clearly specifying something different in the past. Someone buying points for a specific unit size might find himself in 5 years with the cost for its unit doubled. it's not something that can be buried in a 120 page documents, it must be clearly spelled out. If they can really do this, then they're using shady sales practices, bordering a scam. If they continue to argue it's in their right, then we should go to the regulators and ask that the sale process to be rectified. In the signed contract DVC should add a note saying:

"We are in our right to reallocate points as we see fit and increase the cost of a specific unit type over time without any limit. The points you're purchasing might not be able to let you book your vacation at any time of the year".
 

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