WS New Country Rumor

I'm now going to answer my own question.

I just looked at "Married to the Mouse." The author, Prof. Richard E. Foglesong, did write something that suggests that the companies paid for the pavilions.

On page 103, Foglesong writes, "Germany, Mexico, Canada, France, the United Kingdom, Japan and Italy agreed to build pavilions for World Showcase." Oddly, Foglesong omits China.

Foglesong provides no details and cites no sources. He doesn't explained what he means by "agreed." My guess is that Fogelsong made an assumption based on how World's Fairs work.

The reality is that none of these countries paid for their World Showcase pavilions.

The countries arranged the financing...did they not? you win the rhetorical argument...
but "financial participation" was part of the deal when the showcase was built...so whoever paid...it was not Disney's responsibility to get that portion of the cash

So I'll give you that...for what it's worth
 
The countries arranged the financing...did they not? you win the rhetorical argument...
but "financial participation" was part of the deal when the showcase was built...so whoever paid...it was not Disney's responsibility to get that portion of the cash

So I'll give you that...for what it's worth

Please read the Yesterland article. It lists the initial financial participants for each of the opening day pavilions of World Showcase.

The actual countries did NOT "arranged the financing."
 
Really interesting points here, both of you. Much appreciated!

Especially, Horace, the whole concept of the Germany pavilion not representing a single specific established government -- since Germany was still split at the time Epcot opened -- and how a similar concept might apply to a "Korea" pavilion today. A fascinating situation that I had never considered despite hundreds of visits to Epcot's Germany.

That's one of the things I love about this board; after being to the World so many times, it's always fun when you see something here that makes you look at it in a new way.
 
I stand by my point that World Showcase is not a showcase of point-in-time international politics.

Of course, Disney makes decisions based on business and political considerations. I never said they didn't. There have been no additions to World Showcase since 1988. The Disney parks and Resorts business sector has invested billions in capital elsewhere since 1988, while World Showcase has remained largely unchanged. That speaks for itself.

Who said anything about point in time politics? I said nothing of that...my reference was that a decision to build new country pavilions would be difficult to pursue because of the volatility of the world stage - and that is considered when they build anything. The accessibility of information heightens our sensibility to these things (if you bother to pay attention to it). You can disagree - you have your take, i have mine. But to dismiss as "mistaken" is completely naive and inappropriate. You basic argument is that Disney operates in this case without concern to the realities of the outside world. My contention is that they do not. I cannot prove you wrong...you cannot prove me wrong. Hence it's a difference of opinion and therefore subject to the courtesy and decorum of a debate.

You are mistaken.

World Showcase was supposed to include an attraction at every pavilion. The show building for the German boat ride and the "Meet the World" attraction in Japan were built but never used for their intended purpose. Equatorial Africa was originally supposed to be there on opening day. Then it was supposed to open "soon" as part of a second phase.

I concede that one to you. An exaggeration on my part. My thinking was that the showcase and futureworld was built mostly as planned. And no...i'm not talking about Herb Ryman design sketches from 1970 or walt disney television speeches in 1966. In the late 1970's when things were moving. Things were eliminated, as you correctly point out. But because the German boat ride was not put in place or the Mt. Fuji matterhorn had to be nixed - that doesn't really represent a deviation from the vision of the park. Those things COULD have been added later. They weren't due to probably a slew of reasons.

By the way...you yourself stated that nothing has been added while billions have been invested. So why is that - exactly? The only reasons are operation or financial. Because that is always the reason. they're not withholding the Greece pavilion from us even though it would make money. Obviously, the analysis tells them something different.

but back to the point. EPCOT was built (at least the structure of it) as per the approved design. It is illogical to argue that the same can be true of AK, MGM, Studios Paris, California Adventure, or Hong Kong. I would argue that you might just be mistaken. Disney's construction of EPCOT was conducted differently. It is my contention that they continued to build when the numbers told them to stop. Every park since has been shorttracked and stop at a point of financial critical mass where the executive decision was to stop and throw open the gates. Eisner explained it away as a sorta long process of allowing the park to acclimate so more expansion could then be smoothly brought into the operation.
Hogwash...it was a penny-pinching plan that rolled out horribly and then became doctrine

Again..feel free to disagree...do not dismiss

By the way, we had newspapers and television in the 1970s and 1980s too. We even knew what was going on in the world. I wouldn't be surprised if the average American was more aware of the world 30 years ago than today. In today's era of Facebook and specialty sites such as DISboards, it's much easier to tune out the world than in the era of Walter Cronkite and newspaper editors who felt an obligation to print what the public needed to know.

I don't dispute that things were better in the simpler media world. Because now everything is solely about profit (like disney) and it has polluted what the news should be. But you also can't deny that there are infinitely more options available now...and that - good or bad, truthful or not, biased or unbiased, direct or ulterior motive - makes the plan of action for a company such as disney a different animal than would have existed 30 years ago...

again, you don't have to agree
But do you think it is reasonable to assume that the policy hasn't changed now from a time when there were 3 TV networks, am talk radio, and a vast majority of americans got the news 12-16 hours later in print?
 
Please read the Yesterland article. It lists the initial financial participants for each of the opening day pavilions of World Showcase.

The actual countries did NOT "arranged the financing."

with all due respect....you are twisting the truth here.

cultural or business reps from foreign countries bringing companies either based in their country of with a strong presence into the fold for financial support is "arranging the financial" at least to a certain extent.

You contention seems to be that there was no government or private (in respects to a national agenda) involvement...that is not realistic - on many levels.
 
with all due respect....you are twisting the truth here.

cultural or business reps from foreign countries bringing companies either based in their country of with a strong presence into the fold for financial support is "arranging the financial" at least to a certain extent.

You contention seems to be that there was no government or private (in respects to a national agenda) involvement...that is not realistic - on many levels.
I never said there was no government involvement of any kind. And I certainly never said there was no involvement by private companies.

I said there was no financial participation by governments, in response to the claim that "the initial countries paid a hefty portion of costs."
 
Here's an article that addresses two issues on adding countries and how they are paid for. Not by governments is mentioned. The article starts on that topic about half way down.

http://www.yesterland.com/worldshowcase.html

Here’s another excerpt from the 1975 Disney Annual Report:

Each participating nation will be asked to provide the capital to cover the cost of designing, developing and constructing its attraction and/or ride and all exhibits, as well as the Pavilion itself. It will also have the responsibility for funding the housing for its employees in the International Village. Its land lease will cover the cost of maintaining the attraction for a minimum of ten years.

The Disney organization will be responsible for area development, including the construction of transportation systems and utilities. We will also build and operate the internal people moving system, the Courtyard of Nations and central theater facility.



Okay...guess my english is faulty on this one:sad2:

but ok...assuming that was a rather early concept and it then adapted:


World Showcase was not entirely without financial participants—although some pavilions were. Instead of national governments, the participants were businesses—ones that hoped to sell merchandise, meals, beer, or wine to guests. Here’s the list from 1982:

The American Adventure: American Express, Coca Cola
Canada: (no participant)
United Kingdom: Bass Export Ltd., Pringle of Scotland, Royal Doulton
France: Barton & Guestier (B&G), Guye Larouche, Lanson Champagne, The France Chefs (Paul Bocuse, Gaston Lenotre, Roger Verge, and Associate Didier Fouret)
Japan: Mitsukoshi, Inc.
Italy: Alfredo, The Original of Rome, Brolio/Ricasoli & Bersano Wines of Italy
Germany: Bahlsen, Brauerei Back and Co., Goebel, Hutschenreuther, Schmitt Söhne
China: (no participant)
Mexico: Moctezuma Brewery, San Angel Inn


So the contention is that all these companies - native to the country they were incorporated into...did so without the "counsel" of one government official in an official or unofficial capacity. I'm sure no political favors were proposed or delivered for their involvement.
uh huh...we can't build a parking lot in our country without political patronage...but i'm sure it was "different" then.

Okay...here's where it gets silly:


At the time of the opening of the Norway pavilion in 1988, an article in the Orlando Sentinel (“Norway Pavilion Opens—Without Viking Ride” by Vicki Vaughan, June 2, 1988) provided a rare glimpse into the sponsorship details. Here is an excerpt:

Norwegian Showcase USA A/S, also called NorShow, is a consortium of 11 companies established to pay for the pavilion and represent Norwegian interests. The Norwegian government also helped pay for the pavilion.

NorShow president Gunnar Jerman said his company contributed $33 million for the pavilion. The figure includes a $2 million contribution from the Norwegian government and an $8 million government loan to NorShow.

Disney would not reveal the total cost of the pavilion. The company incurred costs because Disney Imagineering designed and built the pavilion.

Jerman said NorShow will share any profit from sales of food and souvenirs. The first $3.2 million in profit will go to NorShow, he said, and the next $400,000 to Disney. After that, NorShow will keep 60 percent of all profit and Disney, 40 percent.

As you just read, the Norwegian government kicked in some money, but it was primarily a business consortium.



A norwegian consortium? "representing norwegian interests"?

there's really no need to even keep commenting on this.

I'm not proposing some government conspiracy...it's not even thinly veiled. The pavilions were negotiated through trade reps and consulates...why is this not obvious?

money (business) + politics (governments) = power (in all things)

this is one of the only universally accepted formulas on this planet. to argue is complete naivety.

So you can adhere to what you think the dictum says (in this case that of the disney PR machine)...but common sense (if it were as common as it needs to be) should dictate otherwise.
 
The article points out that there was a big difference between how Walt Disney Productions wanted World Showcase to be financed (1975 annual report) and the reality when the park opened (October 1, 1982).

That's one reason why EPCOT Center went way over budget, even though much was cut from the original World Showcase plans.

Anyone who believes that national governments were eager to pay for World Showcase pavilions 30 years ago, but are no longer eager today because of how the world has changed, is mistaken.

Norway and Morocco were not part of World Showcase when EPCOT Center first opened. They are special cases.
 
The article points out that there was a big difference between how Walt Disney Productions wanted World Showcase to be financed (1975 annual report) and the reality when the park opened (October 1, 1982).

That's one reason why EPCOT Center went way over budget, even though much was cut from the original World Showcase plans.

Anyone who believes that national governments were eager to pay for World Showcase pavilions 30 years ago, but are no longer eager today because of how the world has changed, is mistaken.

Norway and Morocco were not part of World Showcase when EPCOT Center first opened. They are special cases.

I don't think anybody was eager to put up cash...in 1975, 85, 95, or 05....but before it opened disney could say, "we've got this huge new concept coming (true)...it's one of a kind (true)...you want to be onboard (reasonable under the circumstances)...it will be huge (reasonable at the time)...trust us, we're disney (true at the time...not as much now)"

obviously...that is not the case now. EPCOT is the best "theme" park probably constructed...still to this day. it never relied on tricks or kiddie diversions (until they ran a little bit amuck)...it forces the consumer to think and ponder what it is they are looking at...that is unique.

But obviously there is something big in the way of expansion. That can be one of two things: politics and money.

Assuming that it's not directly politics...then it must be the latter.
But here's the thing: there really isn't much of a difference. Money is channeled and enabled through the politics of any society.

And EPCOT was overbudget because it was a risky and near-disasterous gamble by Card Walker and Ron Miller
Ill-advised.
It was the largest private construction project in history for a long time (it may still be...i haven't checked on that). It was massive and up against a financial and timetable wall from the first shovel until the opening.
And that's why i love it - it was the kinda of gutsy, hands-on type undertaking that disney shined in...it was more than just money.

I believe that the adjusted for inflation estimate of the costs of EPCOT put it at the most expensive amusement enterprise by far to this day....which is still pretty impressive - imho
 

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