Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker discussion thread (*** now contains spoilers ***)

[kbelle8995]

Let's consider that ending "The Skywalker Saga" is a big ask. MANY, Many HIGH Expectations. It's going to be tough to make everyone happy.

 

[mcjaco]

I liked the one review, "If you liked The Last Jedi, you'll likely not like Skywalker." Great. I didn't care for TFA, and liked TLJ.

Oh well. Seeing it tomorrow night, and I can be done with this saga.

 

[BrianL]

I liked the one review, "If you liked The Last Jedi, you'll likely not like Skywalker." Great. I didn't care for TFA, and liked TLJ.

Oh well. Seeing it tomorrow night, and I can be done with this saga.

Yeah, I'm a little nervous that they may have capitulated too much to the very vocal haters of TLJ. That said, I did like TLJ though it's not my favorite, and I understand the need to course-correct a little bit, but I hope it's not just a complete trashing of everything in the previous movie. I'm not THAT sensitive about it, but it is a bit concerning. I guess I'll know tomorrow!

 

[jade1]

Yeah, I'm a little nervous that they may have capitulated too much to the very vocal haters of TLJ.

That's not likely. It's been argued (even here) that that's a super low minority. Unless Disney knows otherwise, and they would be the ones that would know best.

 

[BrianL]

That's not likely. It's been argued (even here) that that's a super low minority. Unless Disney knows otherwise, and they would be the ones that would know best.

I hope not, but some are saying it is really a slap in the face to Rian Johnson - I'm not sure. I think people are really sensitive and my be seeing what they want to see in it - probably reading too deeply.

 

[mcjaco]

Majority of reviews out now are not good. Too much going on, in too little of time.

I know I'm going to have to see it twice (by myself, and then with my boys). I hope it's at least entertaining, like TFA.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

That's not likely. It's been argued (even here) that that's a super low minority. Unless Disney knows otherwise, and they would be the ones that would know best.

I think they could have addressed some elments that they felt didn't work / were problematic with TLJ (or just didn't fit well with what they wanted to tell with RoS) without fully capitulating those against it or completely retconing it

 

[AvidDisReader]

I have posted in past my dislike for Movie Reviewers. That does not mean I do not read the reviews. In this case it seems that many are holding it against this movie that JJ said he did not feel the need to do a course correction, and yet went ahead and did it anyway. I still am looking forward to seeing this movie with my 8 year old grandson who just finished watching all the other 8 movies. He loves them all, I guess that is what you call a true fan.

 

[BrianL]

Majority of reviews out now are not good. Too much going on, in too little of time.

I know I'm going to have to see it twice (by myself, and then with my boys). I hope it's at least entertaining, like TFA.

Yeah, but a lot of the positive reviews are absolutely glowing. I think this may indicate that it is more of an action-type movie that critics often put down but fans actually like.

I think they could have addressed some elments that they felt didn't work / were problematic with TLJ (or just didn't fit well with what they wanted to tell with RoS) without fully capitulating those against it or completely retconing it

Yes, I don't mind that as long as it makes sense in story and isn't just an utter disregard of TLJ - I don't want it to be an overt 180 turn to placate the disgruntled fans.

 

[jade1]

I think they could have addressed some elments that they felt didn't work / were problematic with TLJ (or just didn't fit well with what they wanted to tell with RoS)

Yep, although that would be admitting some elements didn't work or were problematic. No reason to do anything different if it's such a small percentage of fans.

 

[Dis_Fan]

He loves them all, I guess that is what you call a true fan.

You do not have to love everything to be a true fan, although it is good your grandson is enjoying the movies so far. There are no rules to what makes a true fan.

I love Godzilla movies. There are some very bad Godzilla movies. It does not make me less of a true fan.

I thought The Last Jedi was a good movie. I can understand and agree with lots of the criticism the movie got over the last couple of years.

Come tomorrow or Friday night I will see Rise and maybe I will like it, maybe I will not. I know I will at least be entertained for 2 hours or so even if I do not want to ever see it again.

 

[Brianstl]

I think they could have addressed some elments that they felt didn't work / were problematic with TLJ (or just didn't fit well with what they wanted to tell with RoS) without fully capitulating those against it or completely retconing it

It doesn't matter if you like TLJ or not and it doesn't matter if TLJ was a great or bad movie. What Rian Johnson did was screw whoever was going to make the next movie. He kept Luke dead even after Carrie Fisher died. That denied the next filmmaker any of the three characters from the OT to play a major role as a living character in the next movie. He killed off Snoke while leaving Kylo Ren as a conflicted character denying the next film a cinematic true bad guy. He never attempted to explain who the Knights of Ren were or add more background to the First Order. He did nothing to make the audience care about characters like Poe and Finn. Johnson forced whoever took over after him to retcon the story and try to cram too many plot points into a final installment.

 

[jade1]

It doesn't matter if you like TLJ or not and it doesn't matter if TLJ was a great or bad movie. What Rian Johnson did was screw whoever was going to make the next movie. He kept Luke dead even after Carrie Fisher died. That denied the next filmmaker any of the three characters from the OT to play a major role as a living character in the next movie. He killed off Snoke while leaving Kylo Ren as a conflicted character denying the next film a cinematic true bad guy. He never attempted to explain who the Knights of Ren were or add more background to the First Order. He did nothing to make the audience care about characters like Poe and Finn. Johnson forced whoever took over after him to retcon the story and try to cram too many plot points into a final installment.

True, but I kinda like the red glue to fix that ridiculous looking helmet, or did they? Will see about that.

 

[mcjaco]

It doesn't matter if you like TLJ or not and it doesn't matter if TLJ was a great or bad movie. What Rian Johnson did was screw whoever was going to make the next movie. He kept Luke dead even after Carrie Fisher died. That denied the next filmmaker any of the three characters from the OT to play a major role as a living character in the next movie. He killed off Snoke while leaving Kylo Ren as a conflicted character denying the next film a cinematic true bad guy. He never attempted to explain who the Knights of Ren were or add more background to the First Order. He did nothing to make the audience care about characters like Poe and Finn. Johnson forced whoever took over after him to retcon the story and try to cram too many plot points into a final installment.

Even JJ said this trilogy was about new characters. Not the OT ones. Why do the fanboys get so worked up in the death of Han and Luke??? I didn't want to see more stories centered around them (Han is probably my least favorite). I just rewatched the TLJ. There's so many details I missed in the last few scenes with Luke. The facial expressions between he and Leia, etc.

Think of the plot lines that could play out with a conflicted bad guy, rather than one who was being pulled by puppet strings, much like Vader was.....oh wait, they're doing that in IX. Hmmm. There is no need to retcon. It was taking the saga in a new, uncharted direction, not a rehash of the OT. It's exactly why I don't care for TFA.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

It doesn't matter if you like TLJ or not and it doesn't matter if TLJ was a great or bad movie. What Rian Johnson did was screw whoever was going to make the next movie. He kept Luke dead even after Carrie Fisher died. That denied the next filmmaker any of the three characters from the OT to play a major role as a living character in the next movie. He killed off Snoke while leaving Kylo Ren as a conflicted character denying the next film a cinematic true bad guy. He never attempted to explain who the Knights of Ren were or add more background to the First Order. He did nothing to make the audience care about characters like Poe and Finn. Johnson forced whoever took over after him to retcon the story and try to cram too many plot points into a final installment.

I don't agree about Poe - I thin his character evolved a lot in TLJ (moving away from a hot shot pilot/Big man on campus to being mor eof a leader that sees the larger picture) and set him up for being a big player going forward

I do think they should have called an audible on Luke once Carrie Fisher died ... could have done the exact same thing but not have him fade into the Force at the end

I am find with some of the other moves but some of those decisions (like killing off Snoke) make more sense as part of a larger story more than in a vaccum

 

[BrianL]

Even JJ said this trilogy was about new characters. Not the OT ones. Why do the fanboys get so worked up in the death of Han and Luke??? I didn't want to see more stories centered around them (Han is probably my least favorite). I just rewatched the TLJ. There's so many details I missed in the last few scenes with Luke. The facial expressions between he and Leia, etc.

Think of the plot lines that could play out with a conflicted bad guy, rather than one who was being pulled by puppet strings, much like Vader was.....oh wait, they're doing that in IX. Hmmm. There is no need to retcon. It was taking the saga in a new, uncharted direction, not a rehash of the OT. It's exactly why I don't care for TFA.

Also, it's not like Rian wrote everything in a vacuum - in fact we don't know what all came from him and what was proscribed to him. Story Group had to sign off regardless in all cases. These things are a group effort. I don't mind Rian zagging when everyone expected a zig - I think it keeps things interesting. The trick now is to make it all come together. One reviewer said it fits together like a jigsaw puzzle - I can definitely dig that.

 

[jade1]

I do think they should have called an audible on Luke once Carrie Fisher died ... could have done the exact same thing but not have him fade into the Force at the end

Yep, have often said the easiest edit in cinema history-just cut before he dies.

That said, as others have mentioned it was time to move on (not IMO) to the new characters, let the past die-kill it if you have to.

So I expect there to no OT characters in Rise, force ghosts or otherwise-esp nobody in the flesh.

If there is, than Disney disagrees and decided they needed to indeed put OT characters and references in after all.

 

[Brianstl]

Even JJ said this trilogy was about new characters. Not the OT ones. Why do the fanboys get so worked up in the death of Han and Luke??? I didn't want to see more stories centered around them (Han is probably my least favorite). I just rewatched the TLJ. There's so many details I missed in the last few scenes with Luke. The facial expressions between he and Leia, etc.

Think of the plot lines that could play out with a conflicted bad guy, rather than one who was being pulled by puppet strings, much like Vader was.....oh wait, they're doing that in IX. Hmmm. There is no need to retcon. It was taking the saga in a new, uncharted direction, not a rehash of the OT. It's exactly why I don't care for TFA.

Keeping alive one OT main character isn't making the trilogy about the OT characters, it is about supplying some connectivity throughout the new trilogy to their predecessors in what is after all built as the Skywalker saga.

New characters are great, but you have to provide a reason to care about them. TLJ had me going from caring about Finn in TFA to feeling just pity for him at the end of TLJ.

The problem with saying that Kylo was the bad guy is that he was never built by Johnson to be a conflicted bad guy. Johnson set him up as a tweener character. The real evil things Kylo did where contained in TFA. TLJ if anything set up Ren for a redemption arc. No matter what a different bad guy was going to have to be brought in for the finale because of what Johnson did to Kylo's character.

The problem was never taking Star Wars in a new direction. That is being done in a very successful and almost universally loved way in the Mandalorian. The problem with TLJ is that Johnson didn't treat it as a part of a continuing saga that had to be wrapped up in the installment after his.

 

[mcjaco]

Keeping alive one OT main character isn't making the trilogy about the OT characters, it is about supplying some connectivity throughout the new trilogy to their predecessors in what is after all built as the Skywalker saga.

New characters are great, but you have to provide a reason to care about them. TLJ had me going from caring about Finn in TFA to feeling just pity for him at the end of TLJ.

The problem with saying that Kylo was the bad guy is that he was never built by Johnson to be a conflicted bad guy. Johnson set him up as a tweener character. The real evil things Kylo did where contained in TFA. TLJ if anything set up Ren for a redemption arc. No matter what a different bad guy was going to have to be brought in for the finale because of what Johnson did to Kylo's character.

The problem was never taking Star Wars in a new direction. That is being done in a very successful and almost universally loved way in the Mandalorian. The problem with TLJ is that Johnson didn't treat it as a part of a continuing saga that had to be wrapped up in the installment after his.

In point one, then that makes the outrage over Luke null and void. If they're just for connectivity, his death should not matter. His part was done. Rey is the primary character, who seemed to be following a lot of Luke's arch from Empire.

I won't argue the second point. I really haven't cared for any of these characters. I think that's where this trilogy has really fallen flat.

Not sure how you can say Rian didn't build out Kylo as a conflicted bad guy. He's immediately put on notice by Snoke, fails to kill his Mother, the kills Snoke, asks Rey to join him, is rebuffed, and then goes all Kylo on Hux, and Luke at the end. Plenty of conflict.

I don't find the Mandalorian very cutting edge. Sorry. It's just episodes that have thus far not really tied much of a story together. It's wandering without purpose thus far. That's not to say I haven't enjoyed it, but I keep waiting for THE Direction of the show to come into play.

You clearly don't like TLJ. That's fine. I do like it. I didn't dislike TFA, but its still pretty low on my replayability list of SW movies. And I'm not a fan of the prequels at all. Ep. 3 is the only passable one of the lot, and I can't even tell you the last time I watched that one. It's probably been over ten years.

 

[Brianstl]

In point one, then that makes the outrage over Luke null and void. If they're just for connectivity, his death should not matter. His part was done. Rey is the primary character, who seemed to be following a lot of Luke's arch from Empire.

I won't argue the second point. I really haven't cared for any of these characters. I think that's where this trilogy has really fallen flat.

Not sure how you can say Rian didn't build out Kylo as a conflicted bad guy. He's immediately put on notice by Snoke, fails to kill his Mother, the kills Snoke, asks Rey to join him, is rebuffed, and then goes all Kylo on Hux, and Luke at the end. Plenty of conflict.

I don't find the Mandalorian very cutting edge. Sorry. It's just episodes that have thus far not really tied much of a story together. It's wandering without purpose thus far. That's not to say I haven't enjoyed it, but I keep waiting for THE Direction of the show to come into play.

You clearly don't like TLJ. That's fine. I do like it. I didn't dislike TFA, but its still pretty low on my replayability list of SW movies. And I'm not a fan of the prequels at all. Ep. 3 is the only passable one of the lot, and I can't even tell you the last time I watched that one. It's probably been over ten years.

You and I are going to have differing opinions on TLJ and that is fine. I thought what Johnson did would have really worked in a stand alone movie. I just didn't think it work in this storyline.

The biggest problem with this whole trilogy is that they didn't have a story outline before they started the series. I liked TFA, but IMO the only really great film of the Disney Star Wars era is Rogue One.