"9/11 cannot be the day civil liberties perished"

[PRINCESS VIJA]

I just don't get it. Too bad if you don't like metal detectors. If you don't have a weapon with you, it shouldn't bother you to go through one. What is wrong with trying to keep things safe? I just went to see the President, and we all went through metal detectors. There were protestors near the entrance to the airfield. No metal detectors there. I didn't cry about having to go through a metal detector. Theoreticly your telling me my civil liberties were trashed. I don't think so, I was safe and know there wasn't a chance I would get shot. Why don't protestors want the same security?

 

[disney4us2002]

Originally posted by rcyannacci
9/11 was a truly horrifying day and it scared everybody. And, I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong. You're entitled to this opinion. I will point out that it is easier for someone to agree with thier liberities being erased when they think they aren't the ones who will lose them. Imagine that those in charge today, whom you feel comfortable with, are suddenly gone and now you are the dissenting opinion. You are singled out and have limited rights of protest. Or worse, your children are singled out and criticized for thier views. Don't you want them to have a strong public voice to be able to affect change?

Why are my rights of protest limited? Limited by not permitting me to carry a concealed weapon? Everyone is already criticized for their views, whatever they are. I would indeed want my children to have a voice to affect change, but within the limits of the law, not by threatening others with items that would set off a metal detector. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I cannot see why anyone not trying to break the law would have a problem with a metal detector at large gatherings.

 

[jennyanydots]

sigh...

it's not the metal detector per se...it's the intrusiion of the government into your personal business. next you'd agree to have cameras watching the crowd...and then the FBI would have a record of everyone there...and welcome back to the 60's and 70's and the "enemy lists" and then, here comes McCarthyism. disgusting.

you're right, in the 18th century we had muskets and cannons, not assault weapons (thank you, George, for not supporting a ban on guns almost every law enforcement agency requested). but you also didn't have modern transportation, modern food supplies or modern medicine -- and battle losses could be very high, but armies could also starve or die of disease, and civilian populations could be decimated by battle and its aftermath.

even the Bible speaks of geneocide of entire populations.

 

[jennyanydots]

and by the way, guys, the 11th Circuit tends to be very conservative...

so I'd hazard a guess the Supreme Court is not going to accept certiorari.

 

[PRINCESS VIJA]

Flame away, but as long as you aren't doing anything illegal, why be fearful? I have no problem with secret cameras. I don't do anything wrong, or anything I would be ashamed of. I guess I see civil liberties differently. First come responsibilities. I have a responsibility to behave, be a good citizen, and stay within the laws. The liberties I enjoy are living in a country that I love, have opportunity to better myself and help my family with HARD work, and have my own opinions. NO fear in that. If someone wants to observe me being a good citizen, I say let the cameras roll!

 

[jennyanydots]

we've heard that argument over and over and over again, princess. tell it to the people who were blacklisted in the McCarthy era for just expressing an unpopular opinion. or the people who were investigated by the FBI for participating in anti war rallies in the Vietnam era.

or that peace group in San Francisco mentioned in Farenheit 9/11 -- the group that sat around eating cookies, and didn't know they'd been "infiltrated" by a police officer until they read aobut the officer's death in a traffic accident.

none of them did anything illegal, yet they were branded as disloyal and subjected to government scrutiny -- exactly what the Founding Fathers found so distasteful.

 

[septbride2002]

Flame away, but as long as you aren't doing anything illegal, why be fearful? I have no problem with secret cameras. I don't do anything wrong, or anything I would be ashamed of. I guess I see civil liberties differently. First come responsibilities. I have a responsibility to behave, be a good citizen, and stay within the laws. The liberties I enjoy are living in a country that I love, have opportunity to better myself and help my family with HARD work, and have my own opinions. NO fear in that. If someone wants to observe me being a good citizen, I say let the cameras roll!

Oh how I laughed at this comment! It is interesting to me that you invite the cameras and big brother into your life. I would like to see you singing the same tune when it actually happens.

~Amanda

 

[Rokkitsci]

Originally posted by ThAnswr
Because when you set up roadblocks, such as metal detectors, you are possibly, through intimidation, preventing someone from exercising their civil liberties.

I do not believe giving up any of our civil rights makes us safer.

ROLLING AROUND ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING MYSELF SICK

ROLLING AROUND ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING MYSELF SICK

ROLLING AROUND ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING MYSELF SICK


o golly - i am so sick from laughing - what a joke - this is priceless - what insight - what . . . .

ROLLING AROUND ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING MYSELF SICK

 

[Rokkitsci]

In general - I think the only right that anyone is giving up is the right to PRETEND to be a terrorist.

Surely you don't think a REAL terrorist has the "right" to commit his atrocity - do you?

So - when we stop people who are ACTING like terrorists, the only ones we are really inconveniencing are those who are just ACTING like a terrorist.

Sorry - I don't fret over that loss.

I am continually amazed by the monumental hypocracy and absolutely unabashed mendacity of the democrats

FIRST - they blame the president for "not connecting the dots" PRIOR to the attack on 9-11

THEN - after the attack, anytime he does ANYTHING to try to PREVENT another attack - they go whining about "lost liberty"

It just goes to show you - whining democrats are just mindless oppositionists - they display no evidence of a rational brain at all.

They will make directly opposing thoughts in the same rhetorical outburst and wonder why people shake their heads at them and call them --- er -- uh -- um --- never mind.

 

[Rokkitsci]

Originally posted by septbride2002
It is interesting to me that you invite the cameras and big brother into your life. I would like to see you singing the same tune when it actually happens.

~Amanda

Ever been to a bank?? a casino?? a federal building?? a traffic intersection?? any secure facility?? a shopping center?? a convenience store?? a courthouse??

Just wondering how and where you live to escape all this "big brother" stuff you are apparently so afraid of.

OR - do you just object to it when someone attaches the "bush is trying to take our liberties away from us" mantra to it?

hmmmmmmm - wonderment

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by jennyanydots
we've heard that argument over and over and over again, princess. tell it to the people who were blacklisted in the McCarthy era for just expressing an unpopular opinion. or the people who were investigated by the FBI for participating in anti war rallies in the Vietnam era.

Actually, do you know anything about the Venona Project?

 

[Rokkitsci]

Originally posted by jennyanydots
we've heard that argument over and over and over again, princess. tell it to the people who were blacklisted in the McCarthy era for just expressing an unpopular opinion. or the people who were investigated by the FBI for participating in anti war rallies in the Vietnam era.

or that peace group in San Francisco mentioned in Farenheit 9/11 -- the group that sat around eating cookies, and didn't know they'd been "infiltrated" by a police officer until they read aobut the officer's death in a traffic accident.

none of them did anything illegal, yet they were branded as disloyal and subjected to government scrutiny -- exactly what the Founding Fathers found so distasteful.

Perhaps you should actually read about the "McCarthy era" yourself - it turns out that McCarthy was right about the communists in the government at the time. Much of what has been attributed to "McCarthyism" is urban legend sort of stuff - and people keep adding to the myth. But that is a debate for another time.

I am interested that "peace group" that the police "infiltrated."

Have you ever asked yourself = "why did the police infiltrate the group?" Do you assert that police don't actually LIKE peace? Do you think that there are enough policemen that they can just "infiltrate" every group in the whole country that is getting together to have some cookies?? Are they infiltrating the Girl Scouts?? Are they infiltrating the church bake sales?? Are they inflitrating high school fund raisers??

Just WHY would the police want to "infiltrate" this particular "peace" group??

Do you KNOW they are a "peace group"?? who says they are?? = Michael Moore (giggling) - or do they call THEMSELVES a "Peace group"??

Do you know about this group other than what Michael Moore fed you in his propoganda film?? Would you bet your house that this group is NOT involved in something nefarious??

I would be willing to bet MY house that the police had VERY GOOD REASON to "infiltrate" this group. I would GLADLY bet MY house on the fact that the police were NOT just harassing a gentle bunch of cookie munchers.

And I am totally unaware of the situation - other than your post bringing it up.

Therefore - what I am ASSERTING - based on nothing other than your prior record of posting bull hockey - that there WAS ample evidence that this group was involved in criminal activity - OR that the police did NOT infiltrate the group - OR that the 'infiltration' was something other than what Michael Moore said it was.

In other words - this is a total lie.

And I have nothing to go on but my keen sense of what is real and what is garbage - and you have posted some garbage.

You people amaze me - such detachment from reality.

 

[totalia]

Originally posted by ThAnswr
It looks like sanity is returning to this country.

I hope so.

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by Rokkitsci
Perhaps you should actually read about the "McCarthy era" yourself - it turns out that McCarthy was right about the communists in the government at the time. Much of what has been attributed to "McCarthyism" is urban legend sort of stuff - and people keep adding to the myth. But that is a debate for another time.
***
You people amaze me - such detachment from reality.

Rokkitsci! As you obviously know, that is what the Venona Project was and now that the Venona papers were released. . .jennyanydots can know the truth, too.

My dh thinks they are suffering from an intellectual shutdown. . . their blind hatred of Bush makes it impossible for them to engage in a logical exchange or accept any truth that challenges their ideal.

 

[Kendra17]

posted in error

 

[shortbun]

Actually it's the lack of logical people with which to exchange
logically. I haven't seen a logical post, unclouded by emotion,
around here by you guys in a long time. The fact that you spend
ssssooooooooooooooooooooooooo much time at this endeavor
is simply illogical in itself. I picture you two afraid to leave the house, in a dark room with fast food wrappers all around and
flies. LOL! Really though!

 

[shortbun]

Originally posted by Kendra17
Actually, do you know anything about the Venona Project?

Yep, I do. My Mother was very educated about it. She was
pretty scared about things just like you for a long time. She
even timed us coming home from school during the Cuban Missile
Crisis. My mother has recovered from her paranoia though and
I hope some day you do too. Mom is voting for Kerry this year.
She actually was a John Birch member at one time so, you too
can evolve!!! What does Venona have to do with the FBI
questioning me during Vietnam? Hmmm?

 

[Viking]

Originally posted by disney4us2002
Yeah, I read that in the article; however, it seems to me to indicate that an individual's rights are more important than the safety of the whole. I don't see the big deal about giving up a few liberties if it prevents death, destruction, and disaster. I'm sure a few will come along and tell me now why I'm oh so wrong.

So how comes, that so many Americans are not willing to
-Give up their right to bear arms: In three to four weeks as many people die by firearms as were killed on 9-11.
-To accept laws requiring motorists to buckle up in their cars or wear a helmet on a motorbike as during three to four weeks in USA also about 3,000 people are killed.

Giving up liberties because of some terrorists only means one thing: The terrorists have won!!!!

 

[LucyStorm]

No they haven't. It just means that we have opened our eyes to what the world is really like, and are taking steps to prevent that type of violence from coming here again.

Americans have lived in an era where war means somewhere else, not on our shores. We have always felt safe within the boundaries of our borders. This isn't true anymore, and we need to wake up to that reality.

As brilliant as the founding fathers were, they didn't live in an era where someone from halfway across the world could be here in a few hours with their own WMD, whether it be biological weapons or airplanes.

Helmet laws have nothing to do with civil liberties. Gun laws are another matter.

Hey, and please don't paint the Democrats with a broad sweeping brush. I don't vote party, I vote issues. And I'm probably the most conservative Democrat you'll ever meet.

 

[septbride2002]

Ever been to a bank?? a casino?? a federal building?? a traffic intersection?? any secure facility?? a shopping center?? a convenience store?? a courthouse??

Banks - yes
Casinos - yes
Federal Building - nope
Traffic intersection - yes
Secure facility - if you count my place of employment then yes
Shopping center - yes
convenience store - yes
courthouse - nope.

But none of these scare me. What scares me is that the fear of terrorism is so great that people are willing to put cameras in their neighbors home to make sure they aren't doiong anything wrong. And with the way fear is driving this country lately I don't see us to far from the possibility.

~Amanda