I Am Not Sure Walt Would Disapprove

[KimMcGowan]

I will start by saying that I am a Disney apologist. Our honeymoon was at WDW and we have returned often over the years. I realize that I view all things Disney in a positive light. However, I have been intrigued by the number of posts that say Walt is spinning in his grave over the prices seen today. I am not sure that is accurate. Yes, Walt wanted a family-friendly park. He wanted a magical place that inspired awe. (There is no question that the standards he had were much higher than those seen today.). However, the belief that Disneyland was priced for everyone is slightly out of touch. The entry fee was only $1 (slightly more than $10 today). Disneyland opened with 18 rides that each required a ticket to ride. A ticket book with 8 tickets cost $2.50 (almost $25.50 today). So, entry into the park and one ticket book (you would have almost certainly needed at least two) would have cost a total of $3.50. The average salary in 1955 was a princely $3,301. The $3.50 total to visit Disneyland represents 0.00106% of that yearly income. Fast forward to today when the lowest price ticket I could find to WDW is $109. We will add the $15 Genie+ fee to get a ticket that equals $124. That $124 figure represents 0.00155 of today's average yearly income of $79,900, a difference of only 0.0005% from the 1955 price.
Hotels do show a bigger change. The 1956 fee for the Disneyland Hotel of $15/night would account for a 0.046% of income. (I know, Wrather owned the hotel until 1988 - but Disney was certain the park would only thrive with the addition of a luxury hotel next door.). $15night represented a fee that was 2.5 times the average hotel cost of $6/night in 1956. Jumping to the current year we can use the Polynesian and the exorbitant rate of $900/night(The highest I see at the Poly). One night represents 1.126% of 2021's yearly income. The average U.S. hotel night in 2021 is $186. So, the Disney resort is 4.83 times more expensive, a much larger gap that the 1956 hotel shows. What if you don't use the most expensive night? I do think it has to be a deluxe hotel for comparisons sake since the Disneyland Hotel is considered deluxe. Using the Beach Club, with an average rate of $463/night in 2021, provides the closest comparison. That rate is 2.489 times the U.S. average. Five Deluxe resorts have higher averages than Beach Club, while three are lower.
Using these totals I think you can argue that Disney might have been appalled at the cost to sleep in one of his hotel rooms. Maybe. However, I do not think the park comparison would have phased him very much - the totals are fairly similar.
Maybe I am totally off base.

 

[TDSAXX]

I didn’t spend a lot of time checking your numbers; but I believe your 1955 income was per person, whereas your current income was per household.

 

[Itsnotmykitchen]

I would love to know what the cost of food in 1955 was. Not that I find Disney to be that outrageous compared to sporting events, etc. but interesting to see when the captive pricing became a norm.

 

[KimMcGowan]

Good Point. That number was from a USDA report where they did not specify. So, I looked at Census totals. That was the correct number for men. Women who worked outside the house earned an income of $1,100 per year. Thus, a yearly income for a two-income house would be $4,500. However, in 1955 the vast majority of women did not work outside the house. Most worked in the home as a housewife. That brings the percentage, in households with two incomes, to .00078. This is a difference of 0.00028 between the two-income and one-income families. Even with the increased income the difference between 1955 and today is only 0.00077, a fairly close number.
Granted, I could have made a math error somewhere - but I think my numbers are right.

 

[Liquidice]

I posted this in my thread on Genie, it was taken from a FB group I am on and was created by James Craig but it compares ticket prices for WDW from 1971 to today, adjusted for inflation. The red bar shows how much inflation was added, the green bar shows you the adjusted for inflation ticket price and the blue bar is the price not adjusted for inflation.



This isn’t my image and I am not an economist or anything but to me it shows from 1971 until around 2005 that the adjusted for inflation ticket cost remained about the same and after that it continued to rise until 2019.

The ticket prices used are also the most expensive for that year versus the lowest which is what you used, I’m not sure if there is a “correct” way to do this, I would imagine average ticket price over the course of that year is more fair.

It is a different approach then you took, I know you used average income which obviously has a larger role to play than just inflation, just wanted to share this since it might be interesting / useful.

BTW- My personal opinion, I have no idea what Walt would think, but I personally don’t like the feeling of being nickel-and-dimed which is what the Genie+ feels like. I don’t mind spending money when I feel like I am getting a good value, but for me, I can’t get past that Genie+ costs $60 per day for my family and less functional (less rides available) than the old Fastpass system that was free. I’m just guessing but I would think Walt would want his customers to feel like they are getting a good value for the money, even if it is expensive and they are making tons of money. But personally, I don’t think what Walt would want matters anymore. Disney is an entirely different company than it was 50 year ago.

 

[Tigger's ally]

I posted this in my thread on Genie, it was taken from a FB group I am on and was created by James Craig but it compares ticket prices for WDW from 1971 to today, adjusted for inflation. The red bar shows how much inflation was added, the green bar shows you the adjusted for inflation ticket price and the blue bar is the price not adjusted for inflation.

View attachment 598999

This isn’t my image and I am not an economist or anything but to me it shows from 1971 until around 2005 that the adjusted for inflation ticket cost remained about the same and after that it continued to rise until 2019.

The ticket prices used are also the most expensive for that year versus the lowest which is what you used, I’m not sure if there is a “correct” way to do this, I would imagine average ticket price over the course of that year is more fair.

It is a different approach then you took, I know you used average income which obviously has a larger role to play than just inflation, just wanted to share this since it might be interesting / useful.

BTW- My personal opinion, I have no idea what Walt would think, but I personally don’t like the feeling of being nickel-and-dimed which is what the Genie+ feels like. I don’t mind spending money when I feel like I am getting a good value, but for me, I can’t get past that Genie+ costs $60 per day for my family and less functional (less rides available) than the old Fastpass system that was free. I’m just guessing but I would think Walt would want his customers to feel like they are getting a good value for the money, even if it is expensive and they are making tons of money. But personally, I don’t think what Walt would want matters anymore. Disney is an entirely different company than it was 50 year ago.

Notice the lowering of prices when inflation is at it's highest. We may just be months away from finding out if that trend continues. Makes sense on the supply/demand spectrum. I came home yesterday from our local grocery store with 3 bags of groceries, a case of pop, and a case of Dasani and was out $110.00. Didn't buy anything extravagant either unless you call a loaf of velvetta that. Price of everything has skyrocketed here.

 

[Suzabella]

Notice the lowering of prices when inflation is at it's highest. We may just be months away from finding out if that trend continues. Makes sense on the supply/demand spectrum. I came home yesterday from our local grocery store with 3 bags of groceries, a case of pop, and a case of Dasani and was out $110.00. Didn't buy anything extravagant either unless you call a loaf of velvetta that. Price of everything has skyrocketed here.

It has skyrocketed everywhere. Inflation is outrunning wages so people have less money to spend because necessities like food, rent, medical care and gas have gone up. That's why I think people will be spending the same amount of money as they have been but making cuts where they can to compensate for the increase in Disney cost. They'll eat off site, stay off site, not eat at the higher priced restaurants or forego the merchandise. At the same time, some will be priced out or choose to go elsewhere where their money will go farther.

 

[Tigger's ally]

It has skyrocketed everywhere. Inflation is outrunning wages so people have less money to spend because necessities like food, rent, medical care and gas have gone up.

I agree, but all I read on here is complaining about Disney raising prices, not providing same level of service. It IS like that EVERYEWHERE right now. Like it or not, we will have a long haul to pay for all the humane services that covid has forced upon us. Free shots, lots of added unemployment, etc. All needed, but eventually they have to be paid for. Disney is paying for months of no income in all their parks. Signing bonuses and higher wages, safety costs, etc add to the costs. Makes sense that hotels are higher, tickets are higher, etc.

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

I didn’t spend a lot of time checking your numbers; but I believe your 1955 income was per person, whereas your current income was per household.

I will start by saying that I am a Disney apologist. Our honeymoon was at WDW and we have returned often over the years. I realize that I view all things Disney in a positive light. However, I have been intrigued by the number of posts that say Walt is spinning in his grave over the prices seen today. I am not sure that is accurate. Yes, Walt wanted a family-friendly park. He wanted a magical place that inspired awe. (There is no question that the standards he had were much higher than those seen today.). However, the belief that Disneyland was priced for everyone is slightly out of touch. The entry fee was only $1 (slightly more than $10 today). Disneyland opened with 18 rides that each required a ticket to ride. A ticket book with 8 tickets cost $2.50 (almost $25.50 today). So, entry into the park and one ticket book (you would have almost certainly needed at least two) would have cost a total of $3.50. The average salary in 1955 was a princely $3,301. The $3.50 total to visit Disneyland represents 0.00106% of that yearly income. Fast forward to today when the lowest price ticket I could find to WDW is $109. We will add the $15 Genie+ fee to get a ticket that equals $124. That $124 figure represents 0.00155 of today's average yearly income of $79,900, a difference of only 0.0005% from the 1955 price.
Hotels do show a bigger change. The 1956 fee for the Disneyland Hotel of $15/night would account for a 0.046% of income. (I know, Wrather owned the hotel until 1988 - but Disney was certain the park would only thrive with the addition of a luxury hotel next door.). $15night represented a fee that was 2.5 times the average hotel cost of $6/night in 1956. Jumping to the current year we can use the Polynesian and the exorbitant rate of $900/night(The highest I see at the Poly). One night represents 1.126% of 2021's yearly income. The average U.S. hotel night in 2021 is $186. So, the Disney resort is 4.83 times more expensive, a mutch larger gap that the 1956 hotel shows. What if you don't use the most expensive night? I do think it has to be a deluxe hotel for comparisons sake since the Disneyland Hotel is considered deluxe. Using the Beach Club, with an average rate of $463/night in 2021, provides the closest comparison. That rate is 2.489 times the U.S. average. Five Deluxe resorts have higher averages than Beach Club, while three are lower.
Using these totals I think you can argue that Disney might have been appalled at the cost to sleep in one of his hotel rooms. Maybe. However, I do not think the park comparison would have phased him very much - the totals are fairly similar.
Maybe I am totally off base.

this is excellent, the only thing I have to add, was that Walt never really seemed to care to much about price/ profit, he usually left things like that up to his big brother, or others. Money was a means to how far he could stretch his imagination, and that seems to be about it. That changed for the company as a whole when they went public in 57’

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

woops double post

 

[KimMcGowan]

I posted this in my thread on Genie, it was taken from a FB group I am on and was created by James Craig but it compares ticket prices for WDW from 1971 to today, adjusted for inflation. The red bar shows how much inflation was added, the green bar shows you the adjusted for inflation ticket price and the blue bar is the price not adjusted for inflation.

View attachment 598999

This isn’t my image and I am not an economist or anything but to me it shows from 1971 until around 2005 that the adjusted for inflation ticket cost remained about the same and after that it continued to rise until 2019.

The ticket prices used are also the most expensive for that year versus the lowest which is what you used, I’m not sure if there is a “correct” way to do this, I would imagine average ticket price over the course of that year is more fair.

It is a different approach then you took, I know you used average income which obviously has a larger role to play than just inflation, just wanted to share this since it might be interesting / useful.

BTW- My personal opinion, I have no idea what Walt would think, but I personally don’t like the feeling of being nickel-and-dimed which is what the Genie+ feels like. I don’t mind spending money when I feel like I am getting a good value, but for me, I can’t get past that Genie+ costs $60 per day for my family and less functional (less rides available) than the old Fastpass system that was free. I’m just guessing but I would think Walt would want his customers to feel like they are getting a good value for the money, even if it is expensive and they are making tons of money. But personally, I don’t think what Walt would want matters anymore. Disney is an entirely different company than it was 50 year ago.

I love so much of what you said. I personally am against all of the increases we are seeing. I am also VERY opposed to the loss of services. I was just saying that many seem to think that in earlier times Disney was a much more affordable vacation. I think it has always been pricey.

 

[whiporee]

I just wanted to say nice work.

It's always nice when some facts enter these conversations.

 

[Liquidice]

I love so much of what you said. I personally am against all of the increases we are seeing. I am also VERY opposed to the loss of services. I was just saying that many seem to think that in earlier times Disney was a much more affordable vacation. I think it has always been pricey.

Definitely has always been pricey, there are certainly ways to do Disney cheaper (eat offsite, pack a lunch, etc), but it has always been an expensive place to go. I don't think Walt ever intended Disneyland or Disney World to be a charity - he always expected to make money off of it.

 

[Tigger's ally]

the only thing I have to add, was that Walt never really seemed to care to much about price/ profit, he usually left things like that up to his big brother, or others. Money was a means to how far he could stretch his imagination, and that seems to be about it.
.

Yes, the imagineers today operate just like Walt did. They dream big but are limited by budget concerns. Walt was the original imagineer

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

Yes, the imagineers today operate just like Walt did. They dream big but are limited by budget concerns. Walt was the original imagineer

completely agree, I think that's why Disney is able to innovate as much as they have over the years, they separate creative from financial as much as they can, and sometimes you seem to hit a Goldilocks Zone between finance and creative where something really fantastic happens, for instance ROTR

 

[Tigger's ally]

completely agree, I think that's why Disney is able to innovate as much as they have over the years, they separate creative from financial as much as they can, and sometimes you seem to hit a Goldilocks Zone between finance and creative where something really fantastic happens, for instance ROTR

My Goldilocks zone is FOP mainly because of Rhode.

 

[mgarbowski]

Also chiming in to say I appreciate the work and info, and also to note that it is refreshing to see a community understand that it can be helpful to measure prices both relative to wages and to other price inflation.

 

[Aluminum Falcon]

It has skyrocketed everywhere. Inflation is outrunning wages so people have less money to spend because necessities like food, rent, medical care and gas have gone up. That's why I think people will be spending the same amount of money as they have been but making cuts where they can to compensate for the increase in Disney cost. They'll eat off site, stay off site, not eat at the higher priced restaurants or forego the merchandise. At the same time, some will be priced out or choose to go elsewhere where their money will go farther.

I believe that there is a certain demographic that will apply what you've stated above, but i don't think that will be the majority of guests, i can't imagine someone taking an expensive vacation to lets say Hawaii, and making lunch for themselves everyday to save money, i think vacation inherently drive people to spend more money, because "Hey we're on vacation".
I also agree some may go elsewhere, but as you've stated, prices are rising faster than inflation everywhere, so the question becomes, is Disney raising at a rate higher than their peers in the leisure industry, or are they on pace with everyone else. If it's the latter, i can't imagine many people would switch their vacation, because it may be cheaper, but in comparison it to Disney it is just as cheap as it has been

 

[chazabel]

Thanks for some interesting perspective. I am concerned about the appearance of nickle & diming as well. The one thing I have not seen in the posts I have browsed through is the fact that especially in regards to WDW there is a tremendous amount of infrastructure that comes with land the size of Manhattan. So much infrastructure that isn't directly to do with the parks and hotels and guest experiences etc. All of that comes at a price and needs to be handled and kept up. So much behind the scenes.

 

[Pyxie]

I didn’t spend a lot of time checking your numbers; but I believe your 1955 income was per person, whereas your current income was per household.

That's a good point, except that in 1955, your average household income was only being provided by a single person.