Lost DVC points

[Sandisw]

But they did bend/break one of the rules. Borrowing is a "final transaction". It's listed EVERYWHERE in the documents. Rather than bend or break rules lets recognize they are making an exception on that one which is selecting a certain part of the ownership while leaving others high and dry. Late banking? That's an easy one - the make an exception for themselves every day of the year when they sell points in a UY that is past its banking deadline. Double banking? Would be another exception is all. All the exceptions come with ramifications down the line and returning borrowed points is no exception. Borrowers are the lucky ones though and those who aren't allowed to bank late and those who are stuck with banked points or now current points that will expire that were going to be used have good reason to question why.

I am still hoping someone who wants to know why they made the borrowed exception emails them to find out and reports back here,

I know many of us shared our ideas as to why we think it makes sense, but would love to hear what DVC gave as a reason.

 

[kmc33]

It's been mentioned a million times on these threads, but it's not as simple as "bending the rules". Rules are in place to make sure all parties understand the consequences of certain events. When a rule is bent, one or more parties make a sacrifice in order to appease another.

Yes, there are rules in place. Borrowing points is a final transaction, yet all the borrowed points have been placed back, despite this rule. So the rules were bent for that, but not for late banking. I have seen the hypotheses about why the banking points can be put back, but it still makes for an undesirable situation where a rule is bent for one set of circumstance, but not another.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

Yes, there are rules in place. Borrowing points is a final transaction, yet all the borrowed points have been placed back, despite this rule. So the rules were bent for that, but not for late banking. I have seen the hypotheses about why the banking points can be put back, but it still makes for an undesirable situation where a rule is bent for one set of circumstance, but not another.

Ive said it before a couple of times, but I don't think this is as simple as bending the rules. Since the cancelled reservation is due to the closure of the resort rather than a user cancellation, they are simply reversing the transaction as if it never happened.

When you make a reservation with borrowed points, the points automatically tie to the reservation. You can't borrow points without tieing it to the reservation. It's the same transaction. When you reverse the transaction, part of that reversal transaction is returning the points to their original use year. Under normal circumstances, they don't reverse the transaction, they just cancel the reservation.

When you make a reservation with current use year points, your pulling points from the current use year (obviously). When you reverse that transaction, points go back into the current use year.

When you make a reservation with banked points, the points were already banked from a previous transaction. Reversing the reservation doesn't change where the points go. They are already sitting in the current use year. I guess if you really want to argue that you wouldn't have banked those points had you known your reservation would be cancelled they could move those points back into their original use year for you. But I don't think too many people would be pleased with that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the retuning of borrowed points has become a blanket policy. I believe it only comes into affect when the reservation is cancelled due to the closure of the resort. I have a trip for this summer booked. I'm pretty sure I can't cancel my reservation and have my points sent back to their original use year unless the resort remains closed.

I guess, I personally follow their logic. It makes sense to me. I'm sure some of the people who are complaining completely understand the logic, but do not believe it is a fair method. That is fair. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I also believe there is a fair amount of misunderstanding and emotion about the logic that is clouding people's judgement.

 

[BigEeyore]

If it helps anyone - I had cancelled both an April trip and an upcoming June trip (just assuming things will still be closed and also not ready to go back anyways), and the points went back into my 2019 June UY. I did the online chat w/ a DVC rep, and asked her if I would lose the points and she checked on it and said that those 81 points were actually borrowed from 2020 and so she moved them to the 2020 UY. I don't keep close enough track when I book a trip of which UY the points come from, so I am glad I asked.

We have been DVC members since 2008, and every year we go through our points (and are usually borrowing from the next UY) so I admit that this has all been a refresher course for me on how points can expire!

 

[dismedvc]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the retuning of borrowed points has become a blanket policy. I believe it only comes into affect when the reservation is cancelled due to the closure of the resort. I have a trip for this summer booked. I'm pretty sure I can't cancel my reservation and have my points sent back to their original use year unless the resort remains closed.

Ancedotal evidence, but the post from the member below seems to indicate borrowed points are being returned when a member cancels a reservation for the end of July, even though the resorts are currently expected to be open by then.

We have our big summer trip coming up at the end of July. It’s made up of a 4 night stay at Copper Creek, the Hilton Head, then two reservations at OKW. Our final reservation was booked on borrowed points.

Anyway, we knew DVC were returning borrowed points to their original use year for stays that have been affected by the closure, but we didn’t know if they’d do it for future stays as well. So we got onto the online chat to see what was happening if we wanted to cancel. They said they’re currently allowing all borrowed points to go back into the original use year, regardless of when your stay is. Since we weren’t sure if that offer would be rescinded, we jumped on it! They said it could take up to 15 days, but they actually appeared back in the original use year within a few minutes. Some may say we should have just waited, but to be honest, their policy of doing this could change at any time, so we thought it best just to go ahead and get it done. If the trip does go ahead after all, we’ll just book a hotel somewhere with cash for those last few days.

As far as the rest of the trip goes, we’ve no idea what we’ll do yet. Coming from the UK we have international flights to think about too. I think we’ll just see what happens as we near that 30 day cancellation window, which will be towards the end of June. A lot can happen by then.

This may all be old news to some of you, but I thought I’d share our experience as it was very positive, and it might help someone who was wondering a similar thing.

Take care, and stay safe everyone.

 

[Sandisw]

Ive said it before a couple of times, but I don't think this is as simple as bending the rules. Since the cancelled reservation is due to the closure of the resort rather than a user cancellation, they are simply reversing the transaction as if it never happened.

When you make a reservation with borrowed points, the points automatically tie to the reservation. You can't borrow points without tieing it to the reservation. It's the same transaction. When you reverse the transaction, part of that reversal transaction is returning the points to their original use year. Under normal circumstances, they don't reverse the transaction, they just cancel the reservation.

When you make a reservation with current use year points, your pulling points from the current use year (obviously). When you reverse that transaction, points go back into the current use year.

When you make a reservation with banked points, the points were already banked from a previous transaction. Reversing the reservation doesn't change where the points go. They are already sitting in the current use year. I guess if you really want to argue that you wouldn't have banked those points had you known your reservation would be cancelled they could move those points back into their original use year for you. But I don't think too many people would be pleased with that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the retuning of borrowed points has become a blanket policy. I believe it only comes into affect when the reservation is cancelled due to the closure of the resort. I have a trip for this summer booked. I'm pretty sure I can't cancel my reservation and have my points sent back to their original use year unless the resort remains closed.

I guess, I personally follow their logic. It makes sense to me. I'm sure some of the people who are complaining completely understand the logic, but do not believe it is a fair method. That is fair. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I also believe there is a fair amount of misunderstanding and emotion about the logic that is clouding people's judgement.

Right now, they are returning borrowed points for cancellations, even in the summer, I have now see someone who cancelled August, and was allowed.

Someone posted they were not allowed for November, However, with the reopening task force meeting this week, I am thinking we should hear things soon,

But, I agree with you that they decided to put points back and undo the transactions an realized that moving them forward does spread them out.

 

[Sandisw]

If it helps anyone - I had cancelled both an April trip and an upcoming June trip (just assuming things will still be closed and also not ready to go back anyways), and the points went back into my 2019 June UY. I did the online chat w/ a DVC rep, and asked her if I would lose the points and she checked on it and said that those 81 points were actually borrowed from 2020 and so she moved them to the 2020 UY. I don't keep close enough track when I book a trip of which UY the points come from, so I am glad I asked.

We have been DVC members since 2008, and every year we go through our points (and are usually borrowing from the next UY) so I admit that this has all been a refresher course for me on how points can expire!

One thing I do so I don’t forget is to take a screen shot of the points summary after I book

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

Antidotal evidence, but the post from the member below seems to indicate borrowed points are being returned when a member cancels a reservation for the end of July, even though the resorts are currently expected to be open by then.

Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you (or maybe your auto-correct), but in the context of the circumstances surrounding these discussions, I found this hilarious!

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Ive said it before a couple of times, but I don't think this is as simple as bending the rules. Since the cancelled reservation is due to the closure of the resort rather than a user cancellation, they are simply reversing the transaction as if it never happened.

And still no. As others quickly mentioned they are doing this for reservations that are being cancelled by owners during time periods that they are taking cash bookings at resorts and so show they hope to be open.
It is an exception pure and simple.

However lets follow the path of "simply reversing the transaction as if it never happened". Why not apply to current points then? The owner would have banked those points prior to their banking deadline if the transaction never happened vs letting them expire if the resort were going to be closed. So your scenario doesn't flow thru to all - only to the exception of borrowing points being returned.

I guess, I personally follow their logic. It makes sense to me. I'm sure some of the people who are complaining completely understand the logic, but do not believe it is a fair method. That is fair. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I also believe there is a fair amount of misunderstanding and emotion about the logic that is clouding people's judgement.

The basis that most are using to endorse DVC's decision is that returning borrowed points is ok because the points came from that year. However there is as much potential harm to be done to the system for the next few years with that exception as any other they could make. The system itself relies on the balance of both banking and borrowing and that's why they have the rule that borrowing is a final transaction. The belief that because the points were native to the next year makes no difference because at the same time owners are still allowed to bank points forward which have filled in those holes of points where other owners borrowed.

 

[ChipNdale8887]

This may have been addressed already-Disney needs to rescind its “rule of four,” as well as open up more Disney Collection (regular rooms,) inventory instead of forcing anyone to outright lose points due to closure. I would gladly stay in a regular room at most any Disney resort in exchange for a one bedroom or studio I have booked at a DVC villa resort rather than outright lose points. I would gladly stay in two or three regular rooms at most any Disney resort in exchange for a two bedroom villa I have booked rather than outright lose my points. I have been offered moderate rooms for the points of a studio before when there haven’t been DVC studios available. This would solve the future inventory problem.

I agree. I understand the rules with DVC but it still is a problem when so many members are unhappy with something. So far we are at 1 month. If this goes on until September or December. People that haven't been affected that are citing the Term might change their tunes.

 

[Sandisw]

I agree. I understand the rules with DVC but it still is a problem when so many members are unhappy with something. So far we are at 1 month. If this goes on until September or December. People that haven't been affected that are citing the Term might change their tunes.

Not sure because right now, all owners are on notice, so anyone who keeps their points in a reservation beyond the banking window is doing so knowing that DVCs position is no late banking.

But, DVC resorts will not be closed that long. Given the situation in Florida right now, there is nothing to even suggest any longer that opening them in June or July.

 

[ChipNdale8887]

Not sure because right now, all owners are on notice, so anyone who keeps their points in a reservation beyond the banking window is doing so knowing that DVCs position is no late banking.

But, DVC resorts will not be closed that long. Given the situation in Florida right now, there is nothing to even suggest any longer that opening them in June or July.

Still, what if you don't bank before ur banking window because you expect the parts to open up before your use year? We have a brand new contract with a june use year and were given 2019 June points and are past our banking window, so that nice bundle of 2019 points that was a perk for us to buy direct is kinda gone now.

 

[Sandisw]

Still, what if you don't bank before ur banking window because you expect the parts to open up before your use year? We have a brand new contract with a june use year and were given 2019 June points and are past our banking window, so that nice bundle of 2019 points that was a perk for us to buy direct is kinda gone now.

If you just bought direct, Disney will allow late banking. That is the only time they do,

Yeah, I agree that those faced with a banking deadline have a real choice. I had a May trip that I did cancel and bank, but only because my guests wanted to change. I was willing to risk those 60 points to stick it out. I would have lost them had we waited, but I would have been fine with it because it would have been a choice,

I guess my point was that this situation is not an easy one for all, but given that all owners are now aware, if they gamble, IMO, they can’t complain if they lose later because Disney decides not to give any relief,

April and June Uys should really be the only ones in a position to get relief if DVC decides to give it because they didn’t have an option, YMMV

 

[ChipNdale8887]

I guess my point was that this situation is not an easy one for all, but given that all owners are now aware, if they gamble, IMO, they can’t complain if they lose later because Disney decides not to give any relief.

That's true. We just have to step back and think, most owners don't go on these forums. There's probably a lot more owners than we realize that lost a lot of points and even if its not a lot, a family might have only 100 points that they just lost and had to cancel a trip with. This whole situation stinks. I really hope disney finds a way to help its DVC owners who are losing their points. Whether its opening up non DVC rooms to use their lost points on or something. This is the whole reason we love Disney, because they care and try to do anyone on your vacation to make situations right.

 

[Sandisw]

That's true. We just have to step back and think, most owners don't go on these forums. There's probably a lot more owners than we realize that lost a lot of points and even if its not a lot, a family might have only 100 points that they just lost and had to cancel a trip with. This whole situation stinks. I really hope disney finds a way to help its DVC owners who are losing their points. Whether its opening up non DVC rooms to use their lost points on or something. This is the whole reason we love Disney, because they care and try to do anyone on your vacation to make situations right.

Well, I think, forums or not, DVC owners should be aware that WDW and the resorts are closed.

We may love a Disney, but this is not Disney’s issue to fix, it is our associations, and I for one, want the decision to be whatever makes the system as a whole function the best moving forward,

If they can do that without loss to owners, wonderful. The reality is, though, that there is a great chance that points will be lost and that some owners will take a hit harder than others,

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

Not sure because right now, all owners are on notice, so anyone who keeps their points in a reservation beyond the banking window is doing so knowing that DVCs position is no late banking.

But, DVC resorts will not be closed that long. Given the situation in Florida right now, there is nothing to even suggest any longer that opening them in June or July.

I agree. Given the beach situation does not trigger something it is starting to look like New York and New Jersery took and the rest of us avoided.
Given the 14 days self quarantine a FL open fits.

 

[stewart715]

I know extensions are tricky, but we are in a very unique situation. I wonder if members would accept all contracts being extended by 1 year at no cost.

 

[conandrob240]

I agree. Given the beach situation does not trigger something it is starting to look like New York and New Jersery took and the rest of us avoided.
Given the 14 days self quarantine a FL open fits.

My guess is we’ll start seeing beach access in FL in about 10 days, broader opening up of services with social distancing May 15. Disney will watch that first and Id guess will open slowly with lots of restrictions June 1

 

[Maistre Gracey]

My guess is we’ll start seeing beach access in FL in about 10 days, broader opening up of services with social distancing May 15. Disney will watch that first and Id guess will open slowly with lots of restrictions June 1

Some beaches in Florida opened last week. I know the ones near Jacksonville did (I believe that’s Duval County), but not sure about others.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

I know extensions are tricky, but we are in a very unique situation. I wonder if members would accept all contracts being extended by 1 year at no cost.

There are a hundred reasons this won't work, and that's just the legal reasons.