need to vent, church related issues

[lovesmurfs]

my husband and I have started this conversation. We are both feeling discouraged. We went to the worship team meeting last night. The conversation was about our upcoming move to the new building. Our worship space is much smaller than where we are currently, and can accommodate only 150 max. Our attendance last Sunday was 121. So, the issue at hand is whether or not we should have two services. Husband and I, along with the pastor and the worship leader and her husband are firmly on the side of 2 services. I argued that we need to be available to welcome and accommodate people from the community, but if we are having only 1 service, we will fill the space on day 1, newcomers may not feel comfortable feeling like sardines. Two others were passionately against 2 services. Their argument was that "nobody will want to be there that long", and that if the room gets crowded, people can stand. I countered their argument by saying there is no expectation that congregants attend both services. I mean many churches have several services and people don't go to all of them. Attending all of the weekend services is not normal, so I don't see where she's getting that idea. Also, the worship leader shared that because of the smaller space, she is slimming down the worship team and will need only 2 people singing per service. She said she has enough people on the team to keep the commitment down to 1 service per person per month. And, of course, it's also not a requirement.

There is so much stress in the congregation about this move to a new building. I am very surprised by the things people are upset about. None of the things people are up in arms about have anything at all to do with sharing our faith. So much negativity.

At last night's meeting, pastor finally said, "you have a choice to make, either this congregation will embrace change or it will die. maybe you that's what you want." It was good to hear him say that. It validates my feelings.

Sounds like your pastor is frustrated as well. I think there's some research that shows something like once your attendance is at 80% of your sanctuary capacity, you should go to additional services.

Here's an article: https://influencemagazine.com/pract...e rule of thumb is,of seats in your sanctuary.

 

[HopperFan]

We had a friend that said we should try his church. So the sermon was basically about why it is not fair to tax the rich, Then after the sermon he pleaded for people to give to his money wall. Say Whaaat?

they love your money

DH was asked to be a Godfather to a niece. The church asked for documentation to be filled out so they could determine if he had tithed enough money to the church. When is was insufficient they told the parents they would not permit him to be a Godfather.

I found it funny church had no problem showing their real selves but I felt bad for my brother and sister-in-law since they had to tell DH.

 

[sk!mom]

DH was asked to be a Godfather to a niece. The church asked for documentation to be filled out so they could determine if he had tithed enough money to the church. When is was insufficient they told the parents they would not permit him to be a Godfather.

I found it funny church had no problem showing their real selves but I felt bad for my brother and sister-in-law since they had to tell DH.

Did they stay at that church? Did they choose a different godfather?

I’m astounded by the church’s audacity! To me that is a perfect example of cult behavior. You cannot choose the person that you know will be present and important in your child’s life. And asking for documentation of donations?? That would be a he** no for me.

 

[HopperFan]

Did they stay at that church? Did they choose a different godfather?

I’m astounded by the church’s audacity! To me that is a perfect example of cult behavior. You cannot choose the person that you know will be present and important in your child’s life. And asking for documentation of donations?? That would be a he** no for me.

Yes they chose another person. And we attended.

Yes they stayed at the church (well my brother is not a member) because it was not that we didn't give to THAT church but they had access to records of the entire denomination. So we had to get documentation filled out by church we donated to sent to them. DH was raised in same religion, why they asked. Brother and I were not.

Ironically likely the wealthiest religious organization in the world. And they wonder why numbers have basically been stagnant for over 20 years in US while population has grown almost 20%.

Will be interesting to watch all denominations - with our younger generations coming up. My sister works at a very wealthy mega-church and since COVID folks seemed to have found they can be spiritual without attending a church. She said they are having to let go a large number of their staff. It is a massive building but without the member/financial support they once had. You don't need the staff if you don't have the rest. She worked in the day care for the employees. Not sure she'll be working by years end. Where she works is HQ campus that had 10,000 attend weekly. With the few other campuses they have 40,000 attend weekly. What happens with the huge infrastructure when those numbers start dropping. More empty real estate. In 20-30 years it will be interesting to see where all this stands.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

I'm glad the OP found another avenue to volunteer for. You could continue with that and just keep your church for only the weekly service and not expect to do much else with them.

I expect many congregations struggle with bringing in new members. Most of the fellow gen xers I know don't attend any kind of church, whether they believe or not. It kinda seems like a grift, with the purpose of accumulating wealth and power by manipulating people.

 

[Travel60]

I can't tolerate politics from the pulpit either. Christ loves all.

Agree. And politics from the pulpit is a good way to lose your IRS tax exemption. If you hear it, report it.

 

[Southernmiss]

Agree. And politics from the pulpit is a good way to lose your IRS tax exemption. If you hear it, report it.

Exactly.

During the height of this political atmosphere, I even had to change our church Facebook page and who can post to keep us in compliance with IRS statutes.

 

[KayMichigan]

Sounds like the OP's church is on the way out. The church I grew up in went the same route. When we moved to the area and joined in 1970 the place was packed every Sunday with standing room only services. The sanctuary was built in the late 1960s and fairly large and they had to bring in extra chairs for all the people.

Then they got a new, fairly conservative pastor, and gradually people started leaving because they didn't like the way he ran things. By the time I moved away in the early 1990s the services were only 1/3 full and it was mostly the older congregants and maybe a scattering of young families. They started leasing space to an adult day care and another local church in a bid to stay open.

Then it became almost all elderly people with one or two young families and the pews were less than a quarter full every week and even on holidays. The church finally closed down around 2015, sat vacant for many years, and finally was bought by a nondenominational church last year.

It's sad but it's harder these days to get younger people involved, especially when a lot of people use religion as an excuse to hate, exclude and persecute. To a lot of the kids, religion isn't seen as a positive force when it's used to destroy other peoples' lives.

 

[Marrila]

It's sad but it's harder these days to get younger people involved, especially when a lot of people use religion as an excuse to hate, exclude and persecute. To a lot of the kids, religion isn't seen as a positive force when it's used to destroy other peoples' lives.

It's not just young people who feel that way. There are a fair number of seasoned adults that have chosen to move away from all the cruelty and negativity.

 

[KayMichigan]

It's not just young people who feel that way. There are a fair number of seasoned adults that have chosen to move away from all the cruelty and negativity.

This is also true.

 

[mousefan73]

OP here. I have found an opportunity to volunteer with my employer. Our city hosts Black Expo every year. My employer (a local hospital network) is participating in the health fair. I will volunteer a couple of days in July. There are several services they are providing, I have my eye on the sports physicals booth. I can complete sports physicals on kids who can't afford to pay for a doctor's visit (or who can, but just want to attend the expo, it doesn't matter).

This will feed my need to serve at least a little bit. Will keep my eye on other opportunities.

I'm going to the worship team meeting at church this evening. I don't have high hopes for anything other than what someone said up-thread..."blessing the blessed".

I think it is great that there is a Charity/ service that will give kids free sports physicals, opening up opportunity to everyone. I'm not really religious, but have to say I think Christ approves!

I think church attendence is dropping for 2 main reasons. 1. changes in belief 2. Society is changing.


Point 2: As somebody mentioned technology changes how we interact.

back in the day- like waaay back. Church was the one day a week, people got dressed up and actually interacted with people in their town. Today many people dont even know or want to know who their neighbors are. Back then women stayed at home so Sundays was really a true day of rest as they were able to do household chores during the week. We all now do laundry on Sundays.. Back then "enterainment" was limited. Church, church potlucks, brunch were the places to have fun. Today many would rather chill on their couch in Pjs and binge netflix vs actually get dressed and leave the home. Most of us are so exhausted from working all week, running around Saturdays we NEED Sunday simply to zone out.

 

[mousefan73]

This is also true.

The older I get, the more and more I move away from the religion I was raised in.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I think it is great that there is a Charity/ service that will give kids free sports physicals, opening up opportunity to everyone. I'm not really religious, but have to say I think Christ approves!

I think church attendence is dropping for 2 main reasons. 1. changes in belief 2. Society is changing.


Point 2: As somebody mentioned technology changes how we interact.

back in the day- like waaay back. Church was the one day a week, people got dressed up and actually interacted with people in their town. Today many people dont even know or want to know who their neighbors are. Back then women stayed at home so Sundays was really a true day of rest as they were able to do household chores during the week. We all now do laundry on Sundays.. Back then "enterainment" was limited. Church, church potlucks, brunch were the places to have fun. Today many would rather chill on their couch in Pjs and binge netflix vs actually get dressed and leave the home. Most of us are so exhausted from working all week, running around Saturdays we NEED Sunday simply to zone out.

Sunday was never the only day for church. Not sure what you did but I've never known a religious person who only did things on Sunday.

I went to CCD as a kid during the week, one of my DISer friends was always busy with church related activities during the week. Sunday was a day you went to church service but isn't a "back in the day that's all you did" as if the actual church service was what being religious was about.

I'm not even sure what time period you're talking about? The 50s or something? (staying at home doing household chores, limited entertainment, etc leads me to believe you're talking about something from at least 2 generations ago maybe even 3 generations really)

 

[mousefan73]

Sunday was never the only day for church. Not sure what you did but I've never known a religious person who only did things on Sunday.

I went to CCD as a kid during the week, one of my DISer friends was always busy with church related activities during the week. Sunday was a day you went to church service but isn't a "back in the day that's all you did" as if the actual church service was what being religious was about.

I'm not even sure what time period you're talking about? The 50s or something? (staying at home doing household chores, limited entertainment, etc leads me to believe you're talking about something from at least 2 generations ago maybe even 3 generations really)

I was talking about like the 50s where many generations were born and raised their kids and continued the tradition as continuity.

I was also in CCD that for me was Saturdays. In the 80s.. Most did it as being raised that way and CCD was more part of continuity of family traditions, less on belief.. I also knew many that put their kids in that Saturday CCD so they would have a saturday morning to themselves and it was a way of "free" babysitting" to get the kids out of the house.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I was talking about like the 50s where many generations were born and raised their kids and continued the tradition as continuity.

I was also in CCD that for me was Saturdays. In the 80s.. Most did it as being raised that way and CCD was more part of continuity of family traditions, less on belief.. I also knew many that put their kids in that Saturday CCD so they would have a saturday morning to themselves and it was a way of "free" babysitting" to get the kids out of the house.

Our CCD was always during the week in the evenings never on the weekends. We carpooled with other classmates (like maybe 5 or 6) and my mom, another mom and then another mom rotated each year. My mom worked 2 jobs so she worked around the schedules. I remember at a different church (different denomination) we had our girl scout meetings there and had to change the days sometimes because they had church functions (this was usually during the week).

CCD was never about just shooing the kids away. My sister asked to stop going in middle school and I asked in like 5th or 6th grade both because our beliefs changed. I can't say I grew up in an overly religious household but yeah no it wasn't about getting free time, this was usually more of a burden on parents to get their kids to and from CCD anyhow. CCD was in the late 80s to early 90s for my sister and early to mid 90s for me.

Parents didn't need free babysitting anyhow as us kids were often out playing outside with our friends (especially if you're talking about weekends) so that's very strange that you would be raised in roughly the same time period as myself and my sister as if your parents needed to get time by themselves.

I def. think time has changed things but it's not about binging in pjs and not wanting to get dressed up, not even sure how you came to that conclusion that church attendance is down for that.

 

[dvcgirl67]

DH was asked to be a Godfather to a niece. The church asked for documentation to be filled out so they could determine if he had tithed enough money to the church. When is was insufficient they told the parents they would not permit him to be a Godfather.

I found it funny church had no problem showing their real selves but I felt bad for my brother and sister-in-law since they had to tell DH.

My husband and I are god parents to a niece and nephew on my side of the family over 15 years ago.....in what we called "going through the motions" catholicism. Where our family can't quite break from the traditions surrounding birth, communion....etc. DH and I were not married in a Catholic Church so couldn't qualify to be god parents as you have to complete all the relevant sacraments. But....no problem, we found a priest who would give us the certification for $500. Everyone has a price.

 

[mousefan73]

I def. think time has changed things but it's not about binging in pjs and not wanting to get dressed up, not even sure how you came to that conclusion that church attendance is down for that.

Because I know many who are like that.. Might not be Netflix but definately sleeping in.. Many people went to church simply as a traditionalists. It was simple something one did. Irish Catholics, Italiens, old world culture. The typical "catholic on paper" Church was boring but sitting there and getting communion checked the box.. People now realized I am not going to burst into flames if I skip church and heck it's actually more fun to watch netflix or sleep in.

I am speaking from the side that are/were church members but are not super religious and dont have the spiritual NEED for weekly church.. I know so many who go to church only on christmas and Easter and that is it. like I said it's tradition.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Because I know many who are like that.. Might not be Netflix but definately sleeping in.. Many people went to church simply as a traditionalists. It was simple something one did. Irish Catholics, Italiens, old world culture. The typical "catholic on paper" Church was boring but sitting there and getting communion checked the box.. People now realized I am not going to burst into flames if I skip church and heck it's actually more fun to watch netflix or sleep in.

I am speaking from the side that are/were church members but are not super religious and dont have the spiritual NEED for weekly church.. I know so many who go to church only on christmas and Easter and that is it. like I said it's tradition.

Right and I'm not saying that isn't a reason some people don't attend church but you were speaking about a larger trend of lower church attendance bringing up laziness with technology and busy lives (both two opposite ends of the spectrum).

People who couldn't attend church during the pandemic found other ways to do it (such as live streaming) and that is easy to do now but that is not why people aren't joining churches or specific churches in their area such that the OP is speaking to with their church.

If some churches can still bring in people attending even if the overall trend has been downwards over the decades (long before streaming was even a thought in someone's head) then a perceived tiredness from the week and laziness are red herrings into the ways a particular congregation is lacking in members.

People in this thread have been giving examples on both a broad level and a specific congregation level and in 5 pages not one person has mentioned that they would rather laze about in their beds or can't drum up enough energy to go on Sunday as the reason they moved on from religion itself or a particular congregation. I think that's why the OP was mentioning what ideas had been thrown out and was saddened that they all got squashed even when their congregation said they wanted to attract more younger people and families. You can't serve your community as a congregation if you don't embrace your community that you live in.

 

[kymom99]

Because I know many who are like that.. Might not be Netflix but definately sleeping in.. Many people went to church simply as a traditionalists. It was simple something one did. Irish Catholics, Italiens, old world culture. The typical "catholic on paper" Church was boring but sitting there and getting communion checked the box.. People now realized I am not going to burst into flames if I skip church and heck it's actually more fun to watch netflix or sleep in.

I am speaking from the side that are/were church members but are not super religious and dont have the spiritual NEED for weekly church.. I know so many who go to church only on christmas and Easter and that is it. like I said it's tradition.

We call them chreasters.

I’m really surprised at how long these threads have been allowed to go on.

 

[mousefan73]

We call them chreasters.

I’m really surprised at how long these threads have been allowed to go on.

I actually think the discussion has been very good, enlightening and without being offending.