What happened to American optimism?

[DisneyOma]

And in some of those depressed communities there exists a prevalent thought that schools and colleges and the so called "education" they give, are responsible for the decline of America, and wouldn't welcome the investment. Here in Colorado, the Denver Post recently ran an article about how one former mining community is adapting and embracing hemp production, CBD oil extraction etc. I can't help but think that in other parts of the country, the economic impact would be totally overlooked because of perception, "we don't want that stuff in our town." This is why I said the US is on a path with two trajectories.

I read that article (we have a vote next week about pot shops in town) and while there was a temporary monetary boom, they also talked about the increase of homeless people, expenses due to medical issues, etc. At least I think it's the same article that you mention. Or at least that town was mentioned in the article I read!

 

[Boardwalk Jedi]

I'm normally an optimist, but people like this man drive me crazy insisting everything is so easy while being in denial about how many people have things stacked against them. As a nurse, I constantly see people held back by health issues. Many of these health issues are the result of lack of insurance, lack of education, and lack of access to healthcare/prevention. When a patient has to discontinue an insulin pump because she can no longer afford, that's a problem.

It also drives me crazy when I hear people of my grandparent's generation say "well, my dad had a factory job. It didn't pay much but we still did ok". Hello? Those factory jobs hardly exist and if they do, they certainly don't pay enough for that factory worker to own a home, and feed a family with a stay at home wife like they once did. I honestly believe greed is what hurt(s) this country, but people are quick to blame millennials and the poor. It doesn't help that people usually fall for manipulative media either rather that plays off people's fears and prejudices. For God's sake, this past month we saw coal miner's getting excited about the repeal of the estate tax? Explain that, Mr. Optimist.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

There is a generation that is content living in Mom and Dad's basement.

Are you kidding me? I got the heck out of dodge as soon as I could. I love my mom but there's no way I would actually be content living with her.

Just rest assured not everyone wants to live with their parents, not everyone who lived with their parents lives there for long, etc.

This always amazes me when I see people saying this. I'm 52, got a 21 year old college student, and while I do agree that my kid's generation has the sense of expecting granite countertops and ss appliances in their first apartment, LOL, I do think that my generation has to shoulder a large part of the blame for creating this. After all, these kids didn't crawl out of a pod. The Dis is a perfect microcosm of the parenting style that has directly resulted in the generation we have today! There are hundreds of threads where parents talk in detail about their own involvement in every tiny detail of their kid's lives... up through college and adulthood even. We are totally reaping what we have sown.

This reminds me of my father-in-law's girlfriend. She is a helicopter mom (and I don't normally use that term) if there ever was one. She likes to control so many aspects of her son's life it's any wonder he can still pick out his clothing lol.

For example:

~He just started college (which is about 45mins away from the house that she lives in with my father-in-law) and she was forbidding him from taking his vehicle because she just didn't want him to have access to it and you know 'get into trouble'--I don't know if he managed to convince her to allow him to take his vehicle in the few months since college has started though.

~He lives in a dorm building that is old enough that there are issues with the exposed pipes, etc. Instead of him taking care of it himself and letting his RA know about it and work with the RA and the school himself, his mom is storming the castle (school) for him.

~Throughout the time that I've known them there's been so many examples of where he rushes to his mom instead of figuring it out himself. I'm wondering if he'll ever handle anything himself or if he'll just let him mom do it for him and truth is it's not necessarily him that's the issue. He's been raised to rely so much on his mom that he doesn't know what it's like to not have that fall back.

It's just interesting to see how different she is compared to how I was raised and even how my husband was raised (which his mom was controlling too but she's a piece of cake compared to my father-in-law's girlfriend).

 

[rickybobby]

I'm normally an optimist, but people like this man drive me crazy insisting everything is so easy while being in denial about how many people have things stacked against them. As a nurse, I constantly see people held back by health issues. Many of these health issues are the result of lack of insurance, lack of education, and lack of access to healthcare/prevention. When a patient has to discontinue an insulin pump because she can no longer afford, that's a problem.

It also drives me crazy when I hear people of my grandparent's generation say "well, my dad had a factory job. It didn't pay much but we still did ok". Hello? Those factory jobs hardly exist and if they do, they certainly don't pay enough for that factory worker to own a home, and feed a family with a stay at home wife like they once did. I honestly believe greed is what hurt(s) this country, but people are quick to blame millennials and the poor. It doesn't help that people usually fall for manipulative media either rather that plays off people's fears and prejudices. For God's sake, this past month we saw coal miner's getting excited about the repeal of the estate tax? Explain that, Mr. Optimist.

I have to push back on the Estate tax thing. Although I do not make nearly enough to ever qualify for this tax, I see it as unfair. Why take half of a person's estate just because he/she was rich? He/she already paid taxes on the money as he/she earned it.

 

[Pacolovestacos]

I have to push back on the Estate tax thing. Although I do not make nearly enough to ever qualify for this tax, I see it as unfair. Why take half of a person's estate just because he/she was rich? He/she already paid taxes on the money as he/she earned it.

Totally agreed.

 

[yoopermom]

It also drives me crazy when I hear people of my grandparent's generation say "well, my dad had a factory job. It didn't pay much but we still did ok". Hello? Those factory jobs hardly exist and if they do, they certainly don't pay enough for that factory worker to own a home, and feed a family with a stay at home wife like they once did.

Actually, in some places they do. The closest town to us (10K people) has six factories that employ most of the men (and some of the women) in the area. They are ALL hiring (and are pretty consistently). Starting pay is about $15/hr plus good benefits and 401K. Within a few years, most are making $20-25/hr and all the OT they want. Many have worked there for decades. Yes, it's hot, dirty, repetitive work, but they have all managed to raise families on it, pretty decently. A small, older starter home in town will run you 60-80K. Their wives often work for "fun money" (aka college for the kids, vacations, etc), but really, when everyone has the same "working class" standard of living, it's pretty much an ok way to live.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I have to push back on the Estate tax thing. Although I do not make nearly enough to ever qualify for this tax, I see it as unfair. Why take half of a person's estate just because he/she was rich? He/she already paid taxes on the money as he/she earned it.

The estate tax only has 2 outcomes - ruining the family business, or making lawyers & accountants rich as they maneuver to avoid it. And in the process, it reduces future tax revenue. Lots of family farms went away because of this.

 

[missbrooke06]

Actually, in some places they do. The closest town to us (10K people) has six factories that employ most of the men (and some of the women) in the area. They are ALL hiring (and are pretty consistently). Starting pay is about $15/hr plus good benefits and 401K. Within a few years, most are making $20-25/hr and all the OT they want. Many have worked there for decades. Yes, it's hot, dirty, repetitive work, but they have all managed to raise families on it, pretty decently. A small, older starter home in town will run you 60-80K. Their wives often work for "fun money" (aka college for the kids, vacations, etc), but really, when everyone has the same "working class" standard of living, it's pretty much an ok way to live.

I agree these places exist however... these jobs worked out well when people had pensions and retired at 55. Now the expectation is you need to work until 65 to retire and that can be difficult in a hot, dirty, repetitive job. My husband does a manual labor job and makes good money but I'm terrified that he'll have a normal middle age injury that will make him unable to continue in his job. It's an okay way to live as long as it can last.

 

[jliehr]

I think a big part is what has happened with education, specifically college. Baby Boomers were the recipient of the Higher Education Act which allowed many to attend college at little to no cost, as they gained power over the years they have sharply reduced funding for higher education, increased tuition and caused the cost of education have essentially tripled since the 70's. And once they got out of school (and many who didn't even attend) found a market with reasonable wages and hope.

Fast forward and kids are graduating with huge debts, facing poor job opportunities despite families working around 25% more than their parents did at similar ages (highly influenced by dual income families). The Boomers in control knew that they would outpace their money that was paid into government safety nets causing a future crisis. Rather than work to fix it, taxes have been slashed (and it's being proposed they are slashed again), they entered into 2 wars that were deficit financed and continue to outspend and kick the can to the future.

 

[IAHFTPT]

Gee, that was subtle.

 

[LSUmiss]

Yeah & good luck with that.

 

[BigAlsGal]

This guy Phil Chalmers visited my school a decade ago.

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/07/25/...-leading-juvenile-homicide-expert-258874.html

He said violent video games, movies, and music make people violent. He also said we were living in the end of times.

I commend anyone who fights bullying but I just had to laugh!

I can’t believe he still speaks at schools!

What happened to American optimism? Even though we may as well be in the end of times we should aspire and desire a future full of space travel and exploration!

Are you talking about the old school space race? If you are I can tell you those desires are still there. What happened to our "optimism" is good old fashioned $$$$$.

It takes a butt load of money to travel into space. Just like with any budget you have to cut the most frivolous and unnecessary spending first. While space exploration is super cool and provides us with a lot of knowledge about our universe it's extremely costly.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Are you talking about the old school space race? If you are I can tell you those desires are still there. What happened to our "optimism" is good old fashioned $$$$$.

It takes a butt load of money to travel into space. Just like with any budget you have to cut the most frivolous and unnecessary spending first. While space exploration is super cool and provides us with a lot of knowledge about our universe it's extremely costly.

The thing is, the moon isn't a compelling mission any more and won't be unless we can find a cheap way to extract resources. And unmanned probes can tell us quite a bit about our solar system a lot more inexpensively than sending men there. Apollo cost 120 billion for 6 human landings on the moon. Curiosity cost 2.5 billion and has been exploring Mars for 5 years. And we don't have the capability to send men anywhere else but the moon yet. We probably won't be sending men anywhere until we can invent higher thrust ion drives. Note we already have low thrust ones. We do have a plasma drive that can get a ship to Mars in 40 days. But it's years upon years from being good enough to carry the kind of payload necessary to actually carry a manned mission there. Impulse fusion drives are probably a hundred years away if then. Antimatter drives are theoretical. That's not to mention we can learn a ton with our telescopes in orbit and the like. There is just not a compelling reason to send man beyond low earth orbit at the moment.

 

[mnrose]

I have to push back on the Estate tax thing. Although I do not make nearly enough to ever qualify for this tax, I see it as unfair. Why take half of a person's estate just because he/she was rich? He/she already paid taxes on the money as he/she earned it.

I get that. But, taxes have to be paid on the increase in value from the time the decedent acquired it till the time the item is passed on. Often this can be quite large. I recently paid taxes on what I inherited from my father, and his total estate was no where near the size to be considered taxable TO THE ESTATE. it was, however, taxable to me. My father inherited land from his father more than 50 years ago, and later purchased some adjacent land from some of his siblings. Cost was under $100 an acre. We sold it for close to $7000 an acre. This increase was taxed to me....the value when it hit my bank account.



The other side of it is that we, as a country, need the revenue to pay for things. I don't want to argue about those "things" because I'm 100% certain you and I don't agree on which expenses are ok, and which are excessive. But, the US has bills...roads, bridges, defense, etc....and those have to be paid. So, if we give a tax "break" to some, others have to see their taxes go up. Just the way it is. What's "fair" often depends on whose ox is being gored. I'm tired of deficit spending in the name of tax cuts. And, you don't cut the "revenue" side until AFTER you cut the spending side.

 

[mnrose]

The estate tax only has 2 outcomes - ruining the family business, or making lawyers & accountants rich as they maneuver to avoid it. And in the process, it reduces future tax revenue. Lots of family farms went away because of this.

Family farms went away because the "family" doesn't want to farm it. Much more common than the estate tax killing things. Seriously. I grew up on a farm, and 80+ percent of the family farms where I grew up are gone because the kids did NOT want to farm the land. True in every case. The other 20% had kids who wanted to continue the tradition. But, they are the clear exception and not the rule.

It's very hard to break into the farm business anymore. Whether or not there's an "estate" tax. Land in our area costs $7000 an UP per acre and you need a section to be farmer anymore. That's 640 acres. Do the math. This is why we have large corporate farms, and very few family farms.

 

[Colleen27]

I have to push back on the Estate tax thing. Although I do not make nearly enough to ever qualify for this tax, I see it as unfair. Why take half of a person's estate just because he/she was rich? He/she already paid taxes on the money as he/she earned it.

In some cases yes, in some no. The main point of the estate tax is to tax increases in value that are otherwise untaxed, particularly when it comes to real estate and other tangible assets. Even if a property was purchased with post-tax dollars a generation or two ago, the equity in that property is an asset when it passes from generation to generation.

For example (and still well below the current estate tax threshhold), my great-uncle started a small business on the outskirts of a small town in the 1950s. It was a sole proprietor service business, and when no one in his grandkids' generation followed in his footsteps it eventually closed. But the property he bought for that business for a couple thousand bucks of post-tax 1950s dollars is now worth about 2 million, because suburbia has swallowed up that small town and real estate is in high demand. Is it fair to say he "already paid taxes" on the 1.99 million increase in value because he used already-taxed dollars to buy that land 60+ years ago?

The estate tax only has 2 outcomes - ruining the family business, or making lawyers & accountants rich as they maneuver to avoid it. And in the process, it reduces future tax revenue. Lots of family farms went away because of this.

If that is a serious problem, a narrowly tailored solution should be developed to address that specific case. But honestly, I tend to think that's more of an attempt to put a relatable face on the issue for political gain than anything else. You can make a case, particularly in the heartland, that family farms should be able to stay in the family without an income tax burden far more easily than you can make the case that a NYC hotel or a chain of household-name stores should do the same.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

In some cases yes, in some no. The main point of the estate tax is to tax increases in value that are otherwise untaxed, particularly when it comes to real estate and other tangible assets. Even if a property was purchased with post-tax dollars a generation or two ago, the equity in that property is an asset when it passes from generation to generation.

For example (and still well below the current estate tax threshhold), my great-uncle started a small business on the outskirts of a small town in the 1950s. It was a sole proprietor service business, and when no one in his grandkids' generation followed in his footsteps it eventually closed. But the property he bought for that business for a couple thousand bucks of post-tax 1950s dollars is now worth about 2 million, because suburbia has swallowed up that small town and real estate is in high demand. Is it fair to say he "already paid taxes" on the 1.99 million increase in value because he used already-taxed dollars to buy that land 60+ years ago?



If that is a serious problem, a narrowly tailored solution should be developed to address that specific case. But honestly, I tend to think that's more of an attempt to put a relatable face on the issue for political gain than anything else. You can make a case, particularly in the heartland, that family farms should be able to stay in the family without an income tax burden far more easily than you can make the case that a NYC hotel or a chain of household-name stores should do the same.

I know that in my grandfather's case, land he purchased for $10 an acre in the depression was worth more than $1,000 an acre by the time of his death in 1985. He had long since retired from farming and was receiving income from rental, & were that land to have been passed on, the next generation would have collected rent and been taxed on that rent. But, the appreciation of the land (in 1980's dollars) was too great for us to do that. Economically, it made more sense to sell the land and maneuver to protect Grandma's assets as best as possible.

I would argue that a hotel is no different. As the property increases in value and income generation, so too do the real estate taxes and the sales/resort/hotel taxes. Taxing the transfer of those assets because the elder generation died is doubling up.

 

[IAHFTPT]

Seems like much of the farmland near where I live is being turned into housing developments. They're popping up everywhere it seems.

 

[wonder whisper]

Harry Truman, Doris Day, Red China, Johnnie Ray
South Pacific, Walter Winchell, Joe DiMaggio
Joe McCarthy, Richard Nixon, Studebaker, Television
North Korea, South Korea, Marilyn Monroe
Rosenbergs, H-Bomb, Sugar Ray, Panmunjom
Brando, The King And I, and The Catcher In The Rye
Eisenhower, Vaccine, England's got a new queen
Marciano, Liberace, Santayana goodbye

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it

Joseph Stalin, Malenkov, Nasser and Prokofiev
Rockefeller, Campanella, Communist Bloc
Roy Cohn, Juan Peron, Toscanini, Dacron
Dien Bien Phu Falls, "Rock Around the Clock"
Einstein, James Dean, Brooklyn's got a winning team
Davy Crockett, Peter Pan, Elvis Presley, Disneyland
Bardot, Budapest, Alabama, Khrushchev

Princess Grace, Peyton Place, Trouble in the Suez

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it

Little Rock, Pasternak, Mickey Mantle, Kerouac
Sputnik, Zhou Enlai, Bridge On The River Kwai
Lebanon, Charles de Gaulle, California baseball
Starkweather Homicide, Children of Thalidomide
Buddy Holly, Ben-Hur, Space Monkey, Mafia
Hula Hoops, Castro, Edsel is a no-go
U-2, Syngman Rhee, payola and Kennedy
Chubby Checker, Psycho, Belgians in the Congo

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it

Hemingway, Eichmann, Stranger in a Strange Land
Dylan, Berlin, Bay of Pigs invasion
Lawrence of Arabia, British Beatlemania
Ole Miss, John Glenn, Liston beats Patterson
Pope Paul, Malcolm X, British Politician sex
J.F.K. blown away, what else do I have to say?

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it

Birth control, Ho Chi Minh, Richard Nixon back again
Moonshot, Woodstock, Watergate, punk rock
Begin, Reagan, Palestine, Terror on the airline
Ayatollah's in Iran, Russians in Afghanistan
Wheel of Fortune, Sally Ride, heavy metal suicide
Foreign debts, homeless Vets, AIDS, crack, Bernie Goetz
Hypodermics on the shores, China's under martial law
Rock and Roller cola wars, I can't take it anymore

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
But when we are gone
It will still burn on, and on, and on, and on...
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning since the world's been turning

Written by Billy Joel • Copyright © Universal Music Publishing Group

I think Billy Joel ripped off Tim Curry

"I Do The Rock":

Edith Sitwell giving readings
14 Moscow Road
Osbert's giving champagne parties
Sachie's got a cold
Gertrude's hanging pictures
Alice making tea
Me, I do the only thing that still
Makes sense to me
I do the Rock
I do the Rock Rock

John and Yoko farming beef
Raising protein quota
Sometimes they make love and art
Inside their dakota

Rodney's feeling sexy
Mick is really frightfully bold
Me, I do the only thing that stops me growing old
I do the Rock
I do the Rock Rock
I do the Rock Rock Rock

Well, it's stimulating

Solzhenitzin feels exposed
Build a barbed-wired prison
Nietsche's six feet underbut his babies still got rhythm
Einstein's celebrating ten decades
But I'm afraid philosophy is just too much responsibility for me
I do the Rock
I do the Rock

Baby Ruth and Dizzy Dean
Best and Colin Cowdrey
Little Mo, Virginia Wade
Pistol Pete and O.J.
I've always like Di Maggio
And Rockne's pretty knute - you know
I could never wack a ball with such velocity
I do the Rock
I do the Rock
I do the Rock
It's stimulating - I'm a keen student

Liz and Dick and Britt and Lisa
Jaclyn, Kate and Farah
Meg and Roddy, John Travolta
Governor Brown and Linda
Interwiew and People Magazine
Miss Rona and the Queen
It must be really frightfull to attract publicity
I do the Rock
Myself

Carter, Begin and Sadat
Breznhev, Teng and Castro
Everyday negotiate us closer to desastro
Idi Amin and the Shah
And Al Fatah is quite bizarre
I could never get the hang of ideology

I do the Rock
I do the Rock
I do, I do, I do, do the Rock
Sunshine
Sunshine
Sun-shine

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Family farms went away because the "family" doesn't want to farm it. Much more common than the estate tax killing things. Seriously. I grew up on a farm, and 80+ percent of the family farms where I grew up are gone because the kids did NOT want to farm the land. True in every case. The other 20% had kids who wanted to continue the tradition. But, they are the clear exception and not the rule.

It's very hard to break into the farm business anymore. Whether or not there's an "estate" tax. Land in our area costs $7000 an UP per acre and you need a section to be farmer anymore. That's 640 acres. Do the math. This is why we have large corporate farms, and very few family farms.

Obviously, there are numerous reasons farms break up. I'm not suggesting the estate tax is THE reason, but it does complicate things for those 20% that wish to continue on.