Polynesian CRUSHING Copper Creek in direct sales

[Matty B13]

I also think DVC did a much better in room design at Poly then they did with Copper Creek. thats just my personal opinion though

I could only imagine what a 1 or 2 bedroom would have looked like!

To bad we will never know...... until Poly 2 comes out

 

[DenLo]

I kind of suspect that it's a way of sorta walking back the "sure, put 5 in a 1BR that sleeps 4!" rule, because it seems to be misunderstood and often even a nuisance. Lots of DVC members show up and are surprised there's no bed and are surprised the resort won't give them a cot.

The last resort they did with a "sleep 5 in a 1BR BYOB" was in 2004, Saratoga. Everything since has slept 5 native - AKV (2007), BLT (2009), VGC (2009), Aulani (2011), VGF (2013). Poly doesn't count, no 1BRs.

CCV did 4 in a studio, 4 in a 1BR. The 1BR is one of the smallest in the system at 680 square feet. I think this was a deliberate walk back.

You think so? I figured it was just due to the limitations of the size of the old rooms. Would it have been feasible to make the rooms bigger?

I figure we'll find out what Disney wants to do once more details are released about Riviera. They're starting from scratch so they are free to set the room sizes and capacities wherever they want them. We bought at Poly, but would like to see more options for 5 across the resorts without needing a two-bedroom.

I agree about CCV. They were limited by the room size. I'd imagine they could have done some rearranging that likely would have created some of the most spacious villas but reduced the number and that isn't what DVC is about. At AKV they also were limited by the room size but they took the Deluxe rooms there which gave them larger sized rooms. The few that were converted standard rooms there and the equivalent of most WL rooms became the value size and were limited in occupancy the same way as CCV.

I have to agree with rowrbazzle and KAT4DISNEY, I think the smaller rooms at Wilderness Lodge is the reason for a limited number of guests in a villa, there just isn't room for a fifth body. The typical conversion of a Disney hotel to a DVC 2BR villas is 3 hotel rooms to make one 2BR and that is what they did at CCV. DVC would never have considered using more rooms in each villa as it would upset the profit margin.

The PVB rooms are only as large as they are because of the size of the original Poly hotel rooms. DVC added a kitchenette and needed to do something with the space across the hall from it so they added the shower. The original bathroom area hasn't really changed.

 

[Disn3yVision]

Welp, Copper Creek is now selling like hot cakes, crushing the numbers Poly posted in February of 2016 and 2017. Apparently the appetite for DVC is insatiable, regardless of number of room configurations or amenities. When the economy is doing good people buy, and most people don’t do research so they usually buy direct, and when people buy direct they buy what’s available.... maybe it’s just that simple? Or is it, lol

 

[Lisa F]

I haven't frequented the DVC boards in many years, but it's comforting to know the "whose is bigger" argument that used to go on between BWV and OKW owners has been expanded to fill the new resorts

I think that part of what is going on here is that back in the day, a lot of people would not DREAM of staying in a studio. and with the price point of DVC, why should they? $48 a point for OWK on initial buy in, $65 a point brought down to $55 a point with "magical beginnings" when I bought into BWV. The math really worked on staying in the bigger units and there were raging debates about how you were misusing your DVC if you stayed only in a studio, the whole point of it was the "home away from home" units and how some people would just DIE if they EVER had to stay in a studio, ESPECIALLY at BWV where they were SO MUCH SMALLER than OKW.

It was easy to have that debate at prices 20 years ago. But now with prices at nearly 3x per point and the trend toward the deluxe resort DVC and a bit away from the emphasis of "home away from home", a lot more people are comparing to a standard room for value. When a standard view undiscounted room at the Poly is over $500 a night going up to nearly $800 a night with theme park views topping over $1000 a night during the higher season, buying into dvc and booking a studio at the villas look pretty damn attractive and anything remotely resembling a 1-2br is an extreme luxury product... which is how they were built and marketed. I think most working people could not DREAM of staying at a multi-room suite in the Poly and their model for larger parties is 2 connecting rooms, not a luxurious 1-2 bedroom home away from home. I think most people who stay at the Poly stay there for location and theming and pool and restaurants. It's kind of like why people will buy a studio apartment right downtown in a big city rather than a large condo in the suburbs... and the Poly does seem to get booked up pretty quickly... I had to swap points with an owner during my last two trips to be able to stay there. It is not easy to get by any means at 7 months.

WL is the cheapest of the deluxe and has precedent for point pricing over there that closely resembles BWV pool view so I think yes, they had to offer something more jazzy, snazzy and upgraded to get people to want to buy there... ie the lure of larger units (and not just cabins). The location is not as prime as Poly (although the theming and amenities are as good as poly) and the rooms are smaller, but with precedent of an existing DVC there I think they could not have done anything other than what they did, which is provide a variety of units.

But still I think that with how high DVC prices are, unlike the good old days, a lot of people are buying with plans to be at a studio level... and if you check availability, studios are always the first to go with 1 and 2 bedroom units available sometimes right up until the last minute (I always get email about DVC rental flash sales and what's available are generally the larger units). Even at BWV I have seen availability on a 1br standard view LONG after the studios were fully booked. At Copper Creek the studios sell out lightening fast but there is often plenty of availability in the larger units. So as stupid as you think Disney was for making the Poly all studios, I think they are still trying to figure out the right mix and I think it needs to be more studio heavy than what CCV is.

I stayed in a CCV 2 bedroom for one night with my parents and it was beautiful but not on my top 3 list for where I want to stay other than home resort. Poly is still at the top of that, and we stay in studios. As a single mother traveling with one child, the studios with the pull down murphy beds are PERFECTION so we tend to stay there.

 

[Disn3yVision]

I haven't frequented the DVC boards in many years, but it's comforting to know the "whose is bigger" argument that used to go on between BWV and OKW owners has been expanded to fill the new resorts

I think that part of what is going on here is that back in the day, a lot of people would not DREAM of staying in a studio. and with the price point of DVC, why should they? $48 a point for OWK on initial buy in, $65 a point brought down to $55 a point with "magical beginnings" when I bought into BWV. The math really worked on staying in the bigger units and there were raging debates about how you were misusing your DVC if you stayed only in a studio, the whole point of it was the "home away from home" units and how some people would just DIE if they EVER had to stay in a studio, ESPECIALLY at BWV where they were SO MUCH SMALLER than OKW.

It was easy to have that debate at prices 20 years ago. But now with prices at nearly 3x per point and the trend toward the deluxe resort DVC and a bit away from the emphasis of "home away from home", a lot more people are comparing to a standard room for value. When a standard view undiscounted room at the Poly is over $500 a night going up to nearly $800 a night with theme park views topping over $1000 a night during the higher season, buying into dvc and booking a studio at the villas look pretty damn attractive and anything remotely resembling a 1-2br is an extreme luxury product... which is how they were built and marketed. I think most working people could not DREAM of staying at a multi-room suite in the Poly and their model for larger parties is 2 connecting rooms, not a luxurious 1-2 bedroom home away from home. I think most people who stay at the Poly stay there for location and theming and pool and restaurants. It's kind of like why people will buy a studio apartment right downtown in a big city rather than a large condo in the suburbs... and the Poly does seem to get booked up pretty quickly... I had to swap points with an owner during my last two trips to be able to stay there. It is not easy to get by any means at 7 months.

WL is the cheapest of the deluxe and has precedent for point pricing over there that closely resembles BWV pool view so I think yes, they had to offer something more jazzy, snazzy and upgraded to get people to want to buy there... ie the lure of larger units (and not just cabins). The location is not as prime as Poly (although the theming and amenities are as good as poly) and the rooms are smaller, but with precedent of an existing DVC there I think they could not have done anything other than what they did, which is provide a variety of units.

But still I think that with how high DVC prices are, unlike the good old days, a lot of people are buying with plans to be at a studio level... and if you check availability, studios are always the first to go with 1 and 2 bedroom units available sometimes right up until the last minute (I always get email about DVC rental flash sales and what's available are generally the larger units). Even at BWV I have seen availability on a 1br standard view LONG after the studios were fully booked. At Copper Creek the studios sell out lightening fast but there is often plenty of availability in the larger units. So as stupid as you think Disney was for making the Poly all studios, I think they are still trying to figure out the right mix and I think it needs to be more studio heavy than what CCV is.

I stayed in a CCV 2 bedroom for one night with my parents and it was beautiful but not on my top 3 list for where I want to stay other than home resort. Poly is still at the top of that, and we stay in studios. As a single mother traveling with one child, the studios with the pull down murphy beds are PERFECTION so we tend to stay there.

Very well said!

 

[rowrbazzle]

I haven't frequented the DVC boards in many years, but it's comforting to know the "whose is bigger" argument that used to go on between BWV and OKW owners has been expanded to fill the new resorts

I think that part of what is going on here is that back in the day, a lot of people would not DREAM of staying in a studio. and with the price point of DVC, why should they? $48 a point for OWK on initial buy in, $65 a point brought down to $55 a point with "magical beginnings" when I bought into BWV. The math really worked on staying in the bigger units and there were raging debates about how you were misusing your DVC if you stayed only in a studio, the whole point of it was the "home away from home" units and how some people would just DIE if they EVER had to stay in a studio, ESPECIALLY at BWV where they were SO MUCH SMALLER than OKW.

It was easy to have that debate at prices 20 years ago. But now with prices at nearly 3x per point and the trend toward the deluxe resort DVC and a bit away from the emphasis of "home away from home", a lot more people are comparing to a standard room for value...

Well said. I wasn't privy to those debates 20 years ago, but I think it's kind of funny that they're still going on. A lot of newer members (like myself) are interested in studios because they're the "best value." Meanwhile, I hear a lot of older members scoffing at the idea of studios in almost any circumstance. Different perspectives, different opinions.

 

[Lisa F]

Well said. I wasn't privy to those debates 20 years ago, but I think it's kind of funny that they're still going on. A lot of newer members (like myself) are interested in studios because they're the "best value." Meanwhile, I hear a lot of older members scoffing at the idea of studios in almost any circumstance. Different perspectives, different opinions.

If you bought into DVC at presale levels at $48/point

If you want to always stay in a 2 bedroom unit during dream season - not the most expensive but gets you any week but holidays.

Say you bought into OKW in 1991 and you paid $48/point for 300 points to do that. That's $14,400 outlay initially. They used to say the break even point was 5-7 years so let's say 7 years and let's add in the dues in 1998 x 7, which is a little higher than the dues per year, but I'm lazy. So after 7 years you will have paid another $6657 in dues. So after 7 years your total cash outlay was just a hair over $21,000, or $3000 per year, or the equivalent of paying about $400 per night before taxes for a 2 bedroom luxurious home away from home unit.

Let's run the same numbers at copper creek.

a 2 bedroom villa during magic season is 350 points. The cost per point is $182/point. So your initial buy in for enough points for a 2 bedroom villa yearly is $63,700. Say 7 years of dues at the current level, another $17,800 in dues. Total outlay is $81,500 for 7 years of 2 bedroom units, which is roughly the equivalent of $1,560 per night before taxes.

My guess is that the average DVC buyer is not spending $1,560 per night for their accommodations. Per an inflation calculator, $1,560 in 2018 dollars was about half that in 1991 dollars so even accounting for inflation, the price of a 2 bedroom has doubled.

But look at a studio in magic season. Then you only need 130 points. Initial buy in is $23,660. 7 years of dues at current levels is another $6,600. Total outlay = $30,200 or $4,315 a year or around $575 a night before taxes. Now I'm sure people will get discounted rates and spend less than that on a deluxe so maybe the break even point is more like 10 years than 7. But what I'm saying is THAT is in the ballpark of what people are already paying for deluxe accommodations. paying 3x as much for a unit 3x the size is probably WAY WAY WAY out of reach (at least year to year) for most remotely middle class people. Even upper middle class are probably not paying nearly $12,000 a year for hotel only on a luxury vacation which is what you're paying for the larger units.

I may LIKE a 1 bedroom but I have always compared to studios. a 2 bedroom is really 3x the cost of a studio because it takes 3 studio units to make it. That is a luxury product even above and beyond the luxury product that is a DVC studio. I'm guessing MOST people can't afford that on a regular basis (or might save points year to year and take trips every other year to afford to take family and friends along). But people who bought in in the 90's and early 2000's have long since broken even and now I am looking at being able to stay in a studio for 7-10 nights (depending where) for about $850 in dues. A 2 bedroom is not nearly as much of a splurge for me than for someone who bought in recently because I LONG ago recovered my initial buy in price, even compared to $140 a night boardwalk/beach club/yacht club AP rates that I compared against. So maybe it takes 2 years worth of points or $1700 worth of dues. Still $230 a night is not that out of reach for a middle class person. $1500+ is.

Disney needs more studios because the only people who can afford the larger units are members who bought in at an older resort and the upper end of income of new members buying in. MOST people who buy in are going to be able to afford studios. And that's why they book way faster than anything else.

 

[cruisin5]

Are connecting rooms at the Poly a guarantee or a request?

 

[disneynutz]

Are connecting rooms at the Poly a guarantee or a request?

A request but there are so many I would guess that your chances are good.

Bill

 

[DenLo]

A request but there are so many I would guess that your chances are good.

Bill

Especially if you have a standard view since they are so plentiful.

 

[Disn3yVision]

Copper Creek, and DVC In general, is absolutely killing. Highest first quarter sales EVER... Whoa.

 

[pineapplepalms]

Copper Creek, and DVC In general, is absolutely killing. Highest first quarter sales EVER... Whoa.

I'm sure there are other factors involved (like the economy), but I feel like more and more people are finding out about DVC these days, especially with all the social media and YT content out there now. DVC wasn't even on our radar before last year otherwise we would likely have bought years ago.

 

[gluestickgirl]

Copper Creek, and DVC In general, is absolutely killing. Highest first quarter sales EVER... Whoa.

I figured this would be the case - how many people did we see trying to get in those direct contracts before the benefits change? =)

 

[chicagodisneyguy]

Copper Creek, and DVC In general, is absolutely killing. Highest first quarter sales EVER... Whoa.

Is that "highest first quarter sales" the number of points sold or dollar value of points sold? If it's the most number of points sold then I'm assuming it would also be highest dollar value. But highest dollar value might not mean most points sold. Either way, looks like Q1 stock market volatility didn't deter DVC buyers in the least.

 

[Disn3yVision]

Is that "highest first quarter sales" the number of points sold or dollar value of points sold? If it's the most number of points sold then I'm assuming it would also be highest dollar value. But highest dollar value might not mean most points sold. Either way, looks like Q1 stock market volatility didn't deter DVC buyers in the least.

Number of points

 

[tjkraz]

I figured this would be the case - how many people did we see trying to get in those direct contracts before the benefits change? =)

25-point contracts accounted for only 2% of all points sold during the month.

https://dvcnews.com/index.php/dvc-p...34867/4121-first-quarter-sales-set-new-record

 

[tjkraz]

We can only speculate on exactly what has caused these sales numbers to rise. Obviously people would not be buying if the economy was poor.

But I'm inclined to believe that DVC's current perks represent a tipping point for many buyers. Most who buy direct are unaware of the resale option. Those buyers haven't gone to the extreme of assigning a dollar value to perks like Moonlight Magic, AP discount, Epcot lounge, etc. They haven't been warned "don't buy for the perks because they could disappear tomorrow!"

When prospects are sitting thru a sales presentation, they hear about the great dollar value of DVC (which is still the case, even with prices around $170 per point.). Then they hear about private lounges, Annual Pass savings, discounts at nearly 100 restaurants and...finally...more than a dozen member-exclusive nights in the parks offered at no additional cost.

I suspect this has gone a long way toward "closing the deal" with buyers who were previously hesitant to commit.

 

[Ben E N]

25-point contracts accounted for only 2% of all points sold during the month.

https://dvcnews.com/index.php/dvc-p...34867/4121-first-quarter-sales-set-new-record

That reports only the month of March, which is after the 75 point minimum had been set. I am sure there were many, many more 25-50 point contracts that sold in February, before the 75 point minimum went into effect.
CCV is selling, but that same report shows that the first quarter is only 6% better than their previous best in 2011. I'm not saying CCV is a bad resort (although I personally have no interest in ever staying in a 1 BR that only sleeps 4), but I think there are many other factors that have contributed to the strong first quarter.

(In response to this thread's title - CCV's March sales were better than any month in Poly's history)

 

[ziravan]

That reports only the month of March, which is after the 75 point minimum had been set. I am sure there were many, many more 25-50 point contracts that sold in February, before the 75 point minimum went into effect.
CCV is selling, but that same report shows that the first quarter is only 6% better than their previous best in 2011. I'm not saying CCV is a bad resort (although I personally have no interest in ever staying in a 1 BR that only sleeps 4), but I think there are many other factors that have contributed to the strong first quarter.

(In response to this thread's title - CCV's March sales were better than any month in Poly's history)

Same thing happened with VGF when Poly went on sale. VGF was knocking it out of the park compared to Poly.

Everybody was saying, “See. Proof Poly sucks without more options. Nobody is buying. All that pent up demand going to VGF instead. DVC screwed up royally.”

Made me think twice about Poly because that’s when I bought. Maybe Poly IS a bad buy?

And then.

Then VGF sold out and DVC turned its attention to Poly. Just like it’s turning it’s attention to Copper Creek now.

The only difference I see is the economy is better now than it was three years ago. And sales are showing it.

 

[Capang]

We can only speculate on exactly what has caused these sales numbers to rise. Obviously people would not be buying if the economy was poor.

But I'm inclined to believe that DVC's current perks represent a tipping point for many buyers. Most who buy direct are unaware of the resale option. Those buyers haven't gone to the extreme of assigning a dollar value to perks like Moonlight Magic, AP discount, Epcot lounge, etc. They haven't been warned "don't buy for the perks because they could disappear tomorrow!"

When prospects are sitting thru a sales presentation, they hear about the great dollar value of DVC (which is still the case, even with prices around $170 per point.). Then they hear about private lounges, Annual Pass savings, discounts at nearly 100 restaurants and...finally...more than a dozen member-exclusive nights in the parks offered at no additional cost.

I suspect this has gone a long way toward "closing the deal" with buyers who were previously hesitant to commit.

I have to disagree with you here. As a direct buyer we were told over and over by our guide perks are not guaranteed and can altogether disappear. Also, it isn’t like the guides lead you to believe that direct is the only option. At least ours didn’t. I can see where some may never have known about resale but you will always have consumers that never do their homework. CCV is a pretty great resort and if you want that as a home resort you pretty much have to buy direct or wait for stripped out contracts to start popping up.