What is going on with Disney parks?

[Searc]

The mindshare we all give Disney is a huge factor. It's a good point.

Still, I think a lot of people just get lazy or overwhelmed and give up after a cursory glance at what you have to do.

Compared to a majority of destinations, planning a WDW trip is much more complicated.

 

[DGsAtBLT]

There are a few points that were brought up here and in other threads over the years that are valid:

1. Cost
2. "Complex Planning"
3. Erosion of benefits

It's essentially those three things. Cost is something that is getting out of control. I'm planning another trip in march and that's only because I want to go one more time before my youngest of three kids turns 3. Then the vacation gets extremely expensive. Damn tickets cost a fortune.

The complexity is something I struggle with. I enjoy the planning process and while I understand the stress of picking a restaurant out 180 days in advance, it's not that big of a deal. You can always change it. I think people make too big a deal out of it. And for those that complain about doing planning at all, well that's just silly. If you wanted to do a European vacation, there is still alot of planning you have to do.

Erosion of benefits is something that is definitely seen. Nickle and diming, getting more expensive at the same time. It turns people off.

The Disney vacation is forcing families to go shorter durations or not at all.

Disney is big business and big business typically takes forever to shift strategies on pricing etc. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some steep-ish discounts for next year if they seen light bookings. No clue how soft they are for next year if at all.

The ADR planning is much less of a bother (IMO of course) than the FP planning. You can work around the 180 day planning by eating QS, eating at less popular places, booking night before/day of, or a combination. They’re also only a couple hours and you can pretty reliably know what time or close to it you’re going to want to eat.

The FP are a giant pain sometimes, making it necessary to map out a good chunk of your day and basically locking yourself into these plans should you be holding any of the FP that are huge time savers. Not to mention this also leads to planning for down time like pool or resort time, 60 days or so before you even know if you need a rest or if the weather is even nice. A non experienced guest would have to also figure out timing of things and location of attractions, which I imagine would be pretty overwhelming.

 

[YesterDark]

Compared to a majority of destinations, planning a WDW trip is much more complicated.

Yeah, but a majority of destinations don't have 4 theme parks, 2 water parks, 100s of restaurants, transportation system and shopping.

Of course it's more complicated, I mean that's built in and you should treat the trip as such.

 

[YesterDark]

The ADR planning is much less of a bother (IMO of course) than the FP planning. You can work around the 180 day planning by eating QS, eating at less popular places, booking night before/day of, or a combination. They’re also only a couple hours and you can pretty reliably know what time or close to it you’re going to want to eat.

The FP are a giant pain sometimes, making it necessary to map out a good chunk of your day and basically locking yourself into these plans should you be holding any of the FP that are huge time savers. Not to mention this also leads to planning for down time like pool or resort time, 60 days or so before you even know if you need a rest or if the weather is even nice. A non experienced guest would have to also figure out timing of things and location of attractions, which I imagine would be pretty overwhelming.

You can worry about a lot of things when you do a deep dive in things.

If you're trying to plan the most perfect trip, sure having to schedule out rides and days at parks two months before your trip is tough if you've never done it before especially if you think that nailing it will make or break the whole thing.

Personally, I plan my vacation days in advance and I don't really care about EMH. The only thing that causes me to change is party dates if I'm going during the Fall/Winter. I build my vacation out the way I want, then book FPs to go with it, not the other way around.

 

[DGsAtBLT]

You can worry about a lot of things when you do a deep dive in things.

If you're trying to plan the most perfect trip, sure having to schedule out rides and days at parks two months before your trip is tough if you've never done it before especially if you think that nailing it will make or break the whole thing.

Personally, I plan my vacation days in advance and I don't really care about EMH. The only thing that causes me to change is party dates if I'm going during the Fall/Winter. I build my vacation out the way I want, then book FPs to go with it, not the other way around.

I’m glad that works for you! <- not sarcastic. I know it can be hard to tell.

I think that mind set is probably really hard to adopt when you’re first timers spending a ton trying to make the most of your infrequent or maybe only trip. It’s easy to go with the flow when you know you’re going back reasonably soon.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

A non experienced guest would have to also figure out timing of things and location of attractions, which I imagine would be pretty overwhelming.

I'll note though that for those not using a TA if you're booking your own FPs you have the ability to look up those attractions and their locations. You're already on the website itself or app itself and hopefully you've familiarized yourself even a bit with the attraction you're about to book a FP for lol.

And chances are you're probably going to be looking at a physical map or the map on the app at some point so I'm not sure it's that big of a thing to know ahead of time the exact location--the system will also only show you rides that have FP in each park when you're actually booking them so that would help out on location in terms of what theme park.

And not everyone prioritizes location in terms of FPs. We don't mind criss-crossing if it means we get to ride xyz ride as opposed to going to ones right by each other especially if you're talking about pre-booking FPs.

I kinda think, though I have no evidence to back it up, your non-experienced guest is just booking what they can and what they want not getting into the nitty gritty like we do. Maybe that means a portion of those non-experienced guests come back upset that they criss-crossed all over the place but chances are they probably were happy to get on the ride with the FP lol.

I've talked to very non-experienced guests, my nextdoor neighbors being one of them. How they do their trips are way different than many here because they don't have the nitty gritty uber planning modes going. Sometimes I think people over-estimate what people do; that or they have those non-experienced people coming to them and then they dump information on them.

 

[JKalai]

After having SUCH a good time in the Tokyo parks earlier this year and realizing that a company running a Disney theme park CAN offer a 5 star experience without price gouging and cutbacks... me and SO are saving up to go back. Our experience at TDR was just like Pete's review on the podcast, we were blown away around every corner. $2 bottled drinks, ticket pricing that's easily half of what they charge at DLR and WDW, CM's that actually look genuinely happy to be there... The list goes on and on. We are taking the funds we would usually save to go to DLR since we are only a 4 hour drive away and using it for another TDR trip.

I love DLR and WDW SO much, but the obvious greed is just getting out of control.

 

[Toolulu22]

How many in your generation are having children? Going from the "baby boomers" to "generation x" to "millennials" to now "generation z" (or whatever you want to call it), the trend has gone from couples having children in their early twenties, to having children in their late twenties/early thirties, and older. Obviously, its too early to know the definitive trend for millennials and generation z; but, I know quite a few young couple who proclaim that they don't plan on having children at all. This is anecdotal, of course, and certainly subject to change as they age into their thirties and beyond (particularly, millennials as they are first up). But, it makes me wonder if the relative lack of younger couples with children is having a current impact on attendance at Disney parks.

This is an interesting observation. In thinking about my own extended family members who are in their late teens, twenties, and thirties- many, who have been lucky enough to have experienced numerous Disney trips, when given the option of choosing where to go for a special trip- have opted for someplace else, like Europe, a cruise, the beach, the mountains or a city. Being in a relationship and having a career is a hot topic, having a family is not discussed so much now that you mention it.

Times change and you could be onto something. Big stores that have been around for generations are closing doors because people have changed the way they live. People communicate vastly differently than they did even 10 and 20 years ago. You can basically ride every Disney ride online if you wanted to- and that is how a lot of young people experience the world today, online.

Or, they can all be waiting for the rest of the SWGE to open and it’ll be mobbed. Who knows?

 

[dez1978]

I'll note though that for those not using a TA if you're booking your own FPs you have the ability to look up those attractions and their locations. You're already on the website itself or app itself and hopefully you've familiarized yourself even a bit with the attraction you're about to book a FP for lol.

And chances are you're probably going to be looking at a physical map or the map on the app at some point so I'm not sure it's that big of a thing to know ahead of time the exact location--the system will also only show you rides that have FP in each park when you're actually booking them so that would help out on location in terms of what theme park.

And not everyone prioritizes location in terms of FPs. We don't mind criss-crossing if it means we get to ride xyz ride as opposed to going to ones right by each other especially if you're talking about pre-booking FPs.

I kinda think, though I have no evidence to back it up, your non-experienced guest is just booking what they can and what they want not getting into the nitty gritty like we do. Maybe that means a portion of those non-experienced guests come back upset that they criss-crossed all over the place but chances are they probably were happy to get on the ride with the FP lol.

I've talked to very non-experienced guests, my nextdoor neighbors being one of them. How they do their trips are way different than many here because they don't have the nitty gritty uber planning modes going. Sometimes I think people over-estimate what people do; that or they have those non-experienced people coming to them and then they dump information on them.

For our 1st trip i fell in between the 2 groups of d=the die hards here, that know exactly how to do this, and the non-experienced newbie. I'd been pouring over info on here, and other sites, had a touring plan laid out. I even wrote out directions from one step to the next while looking at maps to not have to stare at my phone constantly or a map. BUT I didnt know how it was all going to play out. I knew what I needed to watch out for, and where I should try to go. My next trip in January, I have literally been planning since the day after we got home from the 1st trip. We are taking extended family, who want to go, but only if they don't have to plan it lol, because the planning is just too much for them. Hopefully this works out, bc I really want us all to LOVE Disney.

 

[adam.adbe]

After having SUCH a good time in the Tokyo parks earlier this year and realizing that a company running a Disney theme park CAN offer a 5 star experience without price gouging and cutbacks... me and SO are saving up to go back. Our experience at TDR was just like Pete's review on the podcast, we were blown away around every corner. $2 bottled drinks, ticket pricing that's easily half of what they charge at DLR and WDW, CM's that actually look genuinely happy to be there... The list goes on and on. We are taking the funds we would usually save to go to DLR since we are only a 4 hour drive away and using it for another TDR trip.

I love DLR and WDW SO much, but the obvious greed is just getting out of control.

Same deal for me. I was planning to go back to Japan and hit areas I didn't get to see this year, but enjoyed TDR so much, we're adding a couple of stopover days for Tokyo just to go back to the parks.

[ETA: other than where to buy tickets and checking crowd calendars to choose our three park days - we did next to no planning/research for TDR and had a blast]

 

[MeridaAnn]

I'm semi-local (a little under 2 hours away) and I've been an Annual Passholder since the day after I moved to Florida 4 1/2 years ago. I love WDW and up until the last few months, I rushed over to Orlando every chance I got and stayed as long as I could. Recently, though, I've just been struggling to maintain that enthusiasm.

Luckily, my renewal date came just a couple days before the latest AP price hike, but it still contributed to that enthusiasm drop. Last time that they raised AP prices, they also added the Memory Make Photos, which was a huge deal to me (because I usually visit solo and so I don't usually have a friend to snap a photo of me), and helped soften the blow (although I know that wasn’t as much of a gain to some people, especially those with larger families where it was redundant). This most recent price doesn't have any sort of mitigating factor. (And now the Photoboxes are taking away part of what originally made the Memory Maker so appealing to me to begin with, too.)

The parks are in a pretty rough place right now. So, so, so. many attractions have been closed just in the four years I've been here. A few of those have been replaced, although often with weaker offerings, and some haven't been replaced at all. I'm excited for all of the new projects that are in the works, but a lot of those aren't coming until 2021.

In the meantime, the parks are kind of a mess. The extra construction to the TTC and MK entrance make the already- tedious process of getting in even more off-putting than usual and "Tomorrowland" is not currently deserving of that name (Monsters Inc.?? The very dated Buzz Lightyear ride with blasters that barely even work. Carousel of Progress ending with a "future" that we have surpassed in reality in every way.) Hollywood Studios lacks a sense of cohesive themeing and is super awkward to navigate. Epcot also has the entrance construction annoyances and the majority of its non-food offerings are outdated (yes, new stuff is on the way, but for now, it's pretty disappointing still), and, to me at least, the festivals have gotten pretty repetitive (and they're SO crowded!). Animal Kingdom is the only one I don't have any serious issues with (although I never bother with anything in Dinoland).

They're charging us more on the promise of things to come, but that means we have to wait for the cost to be justified. If they're raising prices because they're about to open new rides, then of course people are going to wait until they actually get the benefit of those new rides. What's the point of going in 2020 if it's going to just be constant chaos and entertainment / quality cuts until 2021?

Disney's whole attitude / quality is rubbing me the wrong way lately. Not just the "pay now for quality later" thing, but all the other stuff people have mentioned - dropping the extra details that were supposed to be in Batuu, the complete bungling of the Magic Band upgrade program, the petty cost cuts (entertainment cuts, Photoboxes, etc.), treating the lower attendance like it's a problem when it was the only possible upside to the ticket increases, and so on. Plus everything I've heard lately about how their employees are treated.

The Millennial reasoning that some people are suggesting is, frankly, ridiculous. If it was a generational issue, the low attendance would have been a gradual, slowly developing situation, and while there have been some long-term policy issues coming into play, there has clearly been a sharp change in the last few months that has much more short- term influences that have caused this sudden drop-off.

The planning side of things is definitely an ongoing and growing issue. I don't see any reason that restaurants should need to be booked half a year in advance - how is there any significant improvement in having reservations 180 days out instead of 60, for example? The Fast Pass system needs to be reworked as well - especially for the three parks with tiering, as the lower tiers are fairly useless and the top tiers disappear far too quickly, but add huge waits to the standby lines. However, I absolutely would not be okay with a return to the old system that required physically racing to get the FP s at the rides, as that means anyone who can't run from rope drop - such as those with physical limitations, single parents who can't leave their kids behind, and others - would be at an immediate unfair disadvantage. There has to be another solution.

 

[Airb330]

Great thread idea, because something is certainly going on.

As others have said, I think some key economic indicators are starting to blink.

For me, it isn't about the money (yet), but it's getting close. If we didn't own DVC, we'd likely travel to WDW less. The (relative) stress of the WDW trip is rising too. MDE doesn't typically work well for us and fastpass day is starting to become stressful; DHS FP+ changes were a major devaluation; 60-day FP yet 180 day dining leads to issues; non-expiring passes were great for us since we prefer shorter trips and now it's cheaper to do a Gold Pass than buy 3 2-day passes; no nighttime parade. For me, It's all starting to add up, and I think a lot of these little changes in aggregate are starting to impact attendance.

Edited to add: Interesting that Kalogridis is out and D'Amaro is in at WDW too...

 

[dreynolds1982]

It'll be interesting to see what park attendance figures are like domestically and globally when the 2019 numbers come out to get a better idea of if this is solely a Disney issue, or more of a trend around the country. My guess is, it's a combination of things, and likely not just limited to Disney parks. As others have mentioned, there's a great deal of growing economic uncertainty (domestically and globally), and when that is the case, the tourism market is typically among the first to be impacted. I do imagine that Disney (and Universal and many other parks) are reaching a point of diminishing returns if they aren't there already, where guests don't feel the ROI is there to justify extended trips.

I don't believe this is any sort of generational issue or anything like that. If you look at 2018's figures, for example, attendance was up at all domestic Disney parks. If this was some sort of generational thing, it would have already long since begun to impact attendance.

For those interested, you can see the 2018 attendance numbers here.

One thing interesting is, Disney has begun doing some guest surveys related to ticket pricing, asking opinions about some different pricing options such as buy a 4-day pass, get 2 days free, or with any ticket of 4 days or longer, you get free park hopper options. Will be interesting to see if that leads to anything.

In short, I think it's probably all more the result of cyclical economics, trends, etc. and less to do with the more clickbaity reasons like "automated photopass machines" or "missing character interactions in SWGE." The casual guest, most likely, don't notice, care or even know much at all about those things, and it most certainly doesn't likely impact their decision to visit Disney.

 

[YesterDark]

I’m glad that works for you! <- not sarcastic. I know it can be hard to tell.

I think that mind set is probably really hard to adopt when you’re first timers spending a ton trying to make the most of your infrequent or maybe only trip. It’s easy to go with the flow when you know you’re going back reasonably soon.

Honestly after 2017 I had no idea I would be going back after 2 years. Changed jobs, had another kid etc. I got lucky to be honest.

 

[YesterDark]

This is an interesting observation. In thinking about my own extended family members who are in their late teens, twenties, and thirties- many, who have been lucky enough to have experienced numerous Disney trips, when given the option of choosing where to go for a special trip- have opted for someplace else, like Europe, a cruise, the beach, the mountains or a city. Being in a relationship and having a career is a hot topic, having a family is not discussed so much now that you mention it.

I'm 38, I have 3 kids. Just a data point for everyone to ignore!

 

[YesterDark]

For our 1st trip i fell in between the 2 groups of d=the die hards here, that know exactly how to do this, and the non-experienced newbie. I'd been pouring over info on here, and other sites, had a touring plan laid out. I even wrote out directions from one step to the next while looking at maps to not have to stare at my phone constantly or a map. BUT I didnt know how it was all going to play out. I knew what I needed to watch out for, and where I should try to go. My next trip in January, I have literally been planning since the day after we got home from the 1st trip. We are taking extended family, who want to go, but only if they don't have to plan it lol, because the planning is just too much for them. Hopefully this works out, bc I really want us all to LOVE Disney.

My only suggestion is when you're taking extended family, set your expectations EARLY. It saves a lot of grief!!! Let them know how you would like to tour the parks, and see how they feel about it.

 

[Searc]

Great thread idea, because something is certainly going on.

As others have said, I think some key economic indicators are starting to blink.

For me, it isn't about the money (yet), but it's getting close. If we didn't own DVC, we'd likely travel to WDW less. The (relative) stress of the WDW trip is rising too. MDE doesn't typically work well for us and fastpass day is starting to become stressful; DHS FP+ changes were a major devaluation; 60-day FP yet 180 day dining leads to issues; non-expiring passes were great for us since we prefer shorter trips and now it's cheaper to do a Gold Pass than buy 3 2-day passes; no nighttime parade. For me, It's all starting to add up, and I think a lot of these little changes in aggregate are starting to impact attendance.

Edited to add: Interesting that Kalogridis is out and D'Amaro is in at WDW too...

You bring up a great point that up til now hasn't been mentioned ~ the absolute suckage of Disney IT and daily exercise in frustration in trying to use MDE. Unreliable tech is a big issue, especially when 100% of your vacation is dependent on that tech working correctly.

 

[Toolulu22]

You bring up a great point that up til now hasn't been mentioned ~ the absolute suckage of Disney IT and daily exercise in frustration in trying to use MDE. Unreliable tech is a big issue, especially when 100% of your vacation is dependent on that tech working correctly.

So true! MDE and the website in general! I think most of us have experienced that dreaded Stitch error message. I could imagine it happening on rare occasion, but it goes down way too often. In comparison- Google doesn’t keep me holding when doing a search, nor does Amazon when I’m shopping.

 

[Chickinvic]

For me it is more about my experience as a guest than the price so much as far as "breaking point". I find WDW does not value me as an offsite guest. I hate the planning nightmare that WDW has become. So many here will always jump to their defense whenever anything remotely critical is said about WDW, but this is how I feel. I don't want to have to pick what I'm doing or where I'm eating so far in advance. I am on vacation. Also, as an offsite guest, I can't get any decent fastpasses anyways (and please don't tell me to try hitting refresh all day on my phone - not interested in that kind of "vacation" thank you). Disney has designed it that way with the huge advantage to onsite guests. I have no problem with perks for onsite guests such as extra opening hours just for them, but IMO every paying customer should have equal access to a good experience during regular operations. I have paid just as much to visit the park that day as the onsite guests. I honestly think the parks would be better if they scrapped their entire fastpass program. Having been to Disneyland pre-fastpass I can tell you that even during crowded times such as Spring Break the waits were never as bad as they are now with the damned thing.

WDW, I'm pretty much there at breaking point. The only desire I have to go now is for after hours events (lower crowds, no need to have other people with all the good rides since everyone has equal chance at the rides).

DL is a much better experience for me. They give perks to onsite guests, but not to the point where it is interfering with the enjoyment of offsite guests. Their fastpass system requires that you actually be there and make the fastpass reservations on the day. Much, much better system IMO. I regret that I'm not closer to DL anymore (I'm from the West Coast originally). In all my years of living out west (my whole life until 2013) I felt no need to travel to WDW. Now that it is easier geographically to get to WDW, I'm leaning more towards scrapping it and just doing Universal Orlando and throw in an After Hours party if I can time it right.

Since I'm only going once a year usually, and it is a big expense either way (airfare from Canada, exchange rates, tickets, etc), I'm not as concerned about the ticket price increases as that is a drop in the bucket of what I'm paying. I'd far rather see more reasonable crowds (hence the willingness to stick to After Hours parties).

 

[maxiesmom]

I think they are crazy with some of the pricing. I did the dessert party at the Magic Kingdom when it first opened. I think it was around $45 a person, and that seemed pricey for the sorts of desserts you get. And now it is almost $100 per person! If you got special, fancy desserts I could maybe see it. But ice cream and brownies that taste like Little Debbie made them? Disney could do so much better.

I still love to go to WDW, but I am starting to miss the little things they used to do and have. Like butter shaped like Mickey. People that, as soon as the rain stopped, would run out and dry off all of the benches and chairs. Getting shuttled to your resort room the first day. Now they barely even tell you where your room is. Such fun dragging your luggage around as you hunt for your room. I miss all the live music you could find at Epcot.

And don't get me started on how they announce they are cutting Great Moments in History one day, and raising prices the next day.